Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Azquester]

Here's along the old wagon trail. I guess whatever this trail was it was surely washed out and fairly dangerous!


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[Oroblanco]

Good day Oro,

My ideal outcome wouldn't be a tourist destination. It would be more in the form of documentation of what existed, who did it and when. Pictures and narrative in book form would be enough.

The actual site is probably too remote to attract a steady stream of tourist. I do think the area should be protected and it should receive its designation as a historic site. Those hardy enough to make the trip would be rewarded with at least a rest stop with a bronze plaque.

Why do you think I mourn the discarding of the timber? Keeping a four foot section for dating purposes and display in an exhibit wouldn't have required much in the way of cash outlay. It would have at least provided opportunity to validate the very questions you ask. I'm betting a graduate student (or two) at ASU would have given their eye teeth for the opportunity to work on such a project.

I don't need convincing. But it would have been convincing to skeptics.

But hey, remember I'm from Virginia. We are head over heels in love with history and treat it will reverence. At least we did. Times are changing, alas. The all too true joke around these parts is how many Virginians does it take to screw in a light blub. Answer: 5. One to screw in the blub and 4 to document the historic valve of the old blub. That's more truth than joke.

There are many people, especially in government affairs, that will say with a straight face that NO Spanish mining ever took place in the Wilderness area. That's just not true.

Thank you Old for taking the time to explain, and for recognizing that I was really asking the question, not trying to be funny or sarcastic. I am still puzzled as to what is so historic about this Pit mine, and/or the Randolph district? It is only one of something like 67 mining districts in the state of Arizona that were mainly for gold or silver. As far as I can see, there is no solid proof of any Spanish and/or Mexican or Jesuit activity in the Randolph district. When it was first opened up, there was no mention of finding any trace of any previous mining activity anywhere in the district. I will start posting some of the news tidbits on this district tonight in a moment, so all can see. It did not get the same level of hyped up 'rush' press that some districts got, heck even the Goldfield district which is sometimes called Superstitions in the news articles, seems to have gotten more of the news media sales pitch in its favor.

Just for the record, I moved to VA about 1978, lived there a number of years and that is where I became a prison guard (at Powhatan Correction Center, which I hear is now either closed to be closed) and coincidentally also where I first started prospecting. Virginia has a LOT of history, and even a few lost mines of her own. Still have a warm place in my heart for the Old Dominion state, especially the Blue Ridge country. Unfortunately there has been a great deal of new development in some key areas of the state, or I might have still been living there instead of where we are now. I too am a lover of history, just don't see old mines as being of very great significance unless something like the Comstock or Homestake, which affected the whole nation.

Joe - you wrote

Jack San Felice has drawn a view of the inside of the Pit Mine on page 120 of "LOST EL DORADO OF JACOB WALTZ". In that drawing he shows the Pit Mine as being 70' deep from top to bottom, and 80' long for the tunnel. Although Jack answered my direct question that he "had not been in the mine" I can only assume that someone had described the inside of mine to him.

That does not sound like the historic description of the Silver Chief to me.

Perhaps if you check a few of those details?

It has a shaft of 40 feet another of 70 feet and a tunnel connecting below of 230 feet, ore is splendid the assay value is said to be from $60 to $1,300 ton. It is generally a carbonate and there is also galena. A drift 18 feet long which from the bottom of the shaft shows 2 feet of very rich metal is in white quartz. The Silver Chief looks better now than has done before."

Jack has it as 70' deep from top to bottom, and 80' long for the tunnel. Both descriptions include a shaft 70 feet long, and a sizable tunnel as well. Remember we are working from the descriptions of others, not actual measurements. And the published descriptions are over 100 years old, some work was almost certainly done after and NOT published, and just how accurate were those measurements (more likely estimates) when written down?

Some people are convinced that the Pit mine is the Lost Dutchman mine. I believe that by all the info available, this is not very likely. The burden of proof is on those making the claims. We have a historical record of a number of silver mines that operated in the district, and NO gold mines in that same district. Hence the reason for doubt. As pockets of gold were known to occur in some of those mines in the Randolph district, the logical conclusion (IMHO) is that the people who did some work in the Pit mine, had hit one of those pockets. The various clues that at least seem to fit with the numerous clues attributed to the LDM, would seem to support the contention that this could be the lost Peralta mine. Against that conclusion, we have the fact that a number of claims were staked on that very area, and some mines were operated, yet no mention of anyone ever finding any evidence of previous mining activity there. If the whole danged area was not now within a Wilderness Area, I would strongly consider a trip there, as I am also interested in silver as well as gold but as things stand, I won't be able to without breaking promises already made, and it would not convince anyone if I were to say that I have examined the mine.

I would certainly not attempt to discredit you Joe, on any grounds. I will however try to sway your opinion or change your mind at times however!

 

[Oroblanco]

Some interesting info on the Randolph district

Just for more information:

Arizona Citizen, Tucson, Dec 7, 1877, pg 2



Note that one of the extensions on the Silver Chief, has a shaft 70 feet deep, and a drift 40 feet long. Could this not be the same shaft of the Pit mine, with the drift having been extended over the years?

 

[azdave35]

Just for more information:

Arizona Citizen, Tucson, Dec 7, 1877, pg 2

View attachment 1324836

Note that one of the extensions on the Silver Chief, has a shaft 70 feet deep, and a drift 40 feet long. Could this not be the same shaft of the Pit mine, with the drift having been extended over the years?

roy,,can you repost the pic with better resolution?..thanks

 

[Oroblanco]

Sorry Dave it is not any better here but I did find that same clipping online at:
Arizona citizen. (Tucson, Pima County, A.T. [i.e. Ariz.]) 1870-1880, December 07, 1877, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

 

[Oroblanco]

Another bit;
Arizona weekly enterprise. (Florence, Pinal County, Arizona Territory) March 08, 1890, page 4

 

[azdave35]

Sorry Dave it is not any better here but I did find that same clipping online at:
Arizona citizen. (Tucson, Pima County, A.T. [i.e. Ariz.]) 1870-1880, December 07, 1877, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

thanks roy..i wonder if the millsite they speak of in the article is in millsite canyon?...i know there is or was the remnants of an old mill about halfway between hewitt and rogers

 

[Oroblanco]

thanks roy..i wonder if the millsite they speak of in the article is in millsite canyon?...i know there is or was the remnants of an old mill about halfway between hewitt and rogers

That could be, and thanks you just gave me an idea!

 

[somehiker]

One mile south of the "pit mine".

View attachment Possible Millsite.bmp

Has ayone been there....ranching or mining related ?
Appears to have a small foundation up top, as well as a dam and pond down slope.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Roy, ya posted ==== ------I would strongly consider a trip there, as I am also interested in silver as well as gold


Yet you turned down the Tayopa complex

 

[EarnieP]

Thanks for making the trek Bill, appreciate your pictures.
Wondering if the Pit itself was cleared of debris and reclamated as previously thought?
What was your "Indian trick" for the overgrown trails? (I picture you on stilts with an extra long walking stick bush-wacking over the top of the overgrowth, kind of like one of those giraffes in the Lion King play.)

 

[Azquester]

Thanks for making the trek Bill, appreciate your pictures.
Wondering if the Pit itself was cleared of debris and reclamated as previously thought?
What was your "Indian trick" for the overgrown trails? (I picture you on stilts with an extra long walking stick bush-wacking over the top of the overgrowth, kind of like one of those giraffes in the Lion King play.)

Thanks for the kudos. It wasn't as bad as it could've been. That is, if I had gone the rest of the way I would not have been able to return as the trails I followed require daylight. As for the "Indian Method" I used I'll tell you a little known fact about the Indian's. When I was young I lived on a farm in a small town called Rensselaer, Missouri. It was common knowledge animals would interact with me as if one of their own. I had a pet Deer I feed everyday that would come up to me and allow me to pet it. This wasn't a small Deer but a button buck. I have tons of photo's and in a lot of them I always look in the back ground and see Deer watching me.

So Yesterday I was stopped solid in my tracks by the heavy brush. I recalled my past and simply asked the Deer for guidance. I looked up at where I wanted to go and sure enough there it was a beautiful Deer staring right at me.

I asked for help from that magnificent Deer my friend in the Animal kingdom. He looked at me and it was like he was saying "follow me" I simply followed his tracks. What's funny is the Deer was not running he was just curious. I once walked up in the face of a buck in the same type of garbage like up there. We stared at each other two feet apart for over two minutes before we both parted.

This Deer had just traversed the mountain through all that thick brush. He was zig-zagging in and out of the now covered over trail. The Deer know which plants don't have thorn's. So I followed his tracks right out of my situation and realized this method could be used for going all the way to the Pit Mine if need be. You have to be good at tracking and need the light to see that's why I needed to get out of there before dark.

On a foot note I also noticed my friend was in trouble. As I was searching for his trail I came upon a Mountain Lion's tracks! Not only was the Deer Helping me but he wanted my help losing the Lion!


The deer was following the old pieces of the now gone trail and making his own trail between the patches of it. Before I knew it I had traveled to a large section of the missing trail and was about to make a go of it when I realized it was gong to be dark before I could get out safely so I followed the Deer Trail back out. I have one photo of my Bronco back off in the distance from my position. It's a small speck in white. Next time I'm taking small survey neon flags and marking the trail as I go in so you could follow it out after dark if I used glow in the dark flags.

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It was not that bad of a trip, I never had any flat tires although I had two spares it never happened. You can average about 12-15 miles an hour on the road in. I arrived there late and didn't have the time for a complete trip. I wish I did. I was the only one up there and it was spooky. I could see how a mine could be lost in there and no would ever find it for a century!

 

[Azquester]

Here's how far I made it with the help of the Deer. The Ridge and the north is brush clogged.


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[Not Peralta]

Just got back from my first trip too the Pit Mine right this minute. Some photo's to follow. It was a fairly hot day but the wind helped. I thought I saw Frank Augustine leaving while driving up sure looked like him in a white jeep.

I have tons of photo's too process! It wasn't as bad a trip as I thought though! Being that I have no idea where it's at and had no clue how the trail went, or where it originally was, I thought I did quite well. The Manzanita bush and cats claw was horrible tore my arms up a bit. Trail's so over grown I was blocked at every turn! I still made it in a least a third or half the way by using an old Indian Trail trick!


I had my Privy Probe for the Dutchman Dookie!



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AmigoAhhhhhhhhhh Haaaaaaaaaa! now we know,NP

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I suppose it's possible, but how did 230' shrink down to 80'?

I know I'm a bit dense, but that doesn't compute for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Another bit;
Arizona weekly enterprise. (Florence, Pinal County, Arizona Territory) March 08, 1890, page 4

View attachment 1324837

read the article..especially where it says:
these mines are located 8 miles north east of reymert and 10 miles north of the silver king....

 

[Old]

>>>>these mines are located 8 miles north east of reymert and 10 miles north of the silver king<<<

Doesn't sound like he's talking about the same area does it Same company name but different mine

 

[azdave35]

>>>>these mines are located 8 miles north east of reymert and 10 miles north of the silver king<<<

Doesn't sound like he's talking about the same area does it Same company name but different mine

the silver king is about 10 miles n.e. of the old reymert smelter....but the rogers trough area is about 9 miles n.w. of the silver king..pretty good discrepancy if you think about it...i guess you can't always believe everything you read

 

[sdcfia]

the silver king is about 10 miles n.e. of the old reymert smelter....but the rogers trough area is about 9 miles n.w. of the silver king..pretty good discrepancy if you think about it...i guess you can't always believe everything you read

The old 19th century and early 20th century issues of the Engineering and Mining Journal generally provided reliable information. It's usually tedious work trying to find stuff though.

 

[Old]

My apologizes for boring you guys. I'm just answering Oro's question.

Why does an old mine matter?, what historic difference can a pile of old timber and a hole in the ground make?

It matters when the current sovereign says you were never there. That's why.

I'm just musing but..........Lets say.......... 200 years from now folks are mining on the moon. China has colonized the area and controls all the rights. They claim the area by discovery, conquest and purchase. One day you are out prospecting and run across remnants of an what looks like an old flag. Its tattered and crumbles in your hands but you can see its a patch of white stars on a field of blue cornered on a blanket of red and white strips. You can see its old and you can tell by the way its made its don't come from a recent era. You have heard rumors of those pesky Americans saying they were the first to travel to the moon. But the current sovereign denies such talk saying no such thing ever happened. They never landed, never took soil samples and never left their mark behind here. Maybe somewhere else but not here.

Is that an important find, or just a table cloth from a rather recent Chinese dinner party and of no real importance to anything? Just put it in the trash bin and forget about it.

I say it matters and I'd say its particularly important to the real history of Tranquility Bay.