Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[wrmickel1]

Just agreeing the trip never happened

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew, I think Bourke's map has a lot to do with the topic we are discussing. The creeks named with their current day newer names, coupled with their location, relation to each other, and their course, speaks directly to the subject at hand and matches the locale in detail as best I can see. I don't think the "modern author" strayed too far or had to strain at all to make this map relevant to the Pit mine. Its an east-west route over the territory we are discussing in the vicinity of the Pit mine. Such a thing did exist and its right there for your viewing pleasure. The Natives knew of it. The army knew of it, and we know of it. You can bet Jake knew it too.

Are we really going to have a discussion of which is more likely, that there was an existing trail or that some Natives just happened out of the blue to make a new trail that Bourke mapped? Really? I'd say that's a leap of faith in rejecting Bourke's map. If I was a Native and knew I was being pursued by mounted cavalry I sure won't travel in a straight line. Nor would I travel on terrain a horse could follow. But that's just me.

As to the "board house"/milk ranch.......I'm working from memory and could be mistaken but I believe Waltz said they would take the wagon to the board house and he would POINT OUT the trail from there. I can easily see Waltz pointing there's the ridge, get there by way of the ridge path, peer to the east and the route to the mine will be before you. I'd speculate he shared more details of what to look for that hasn't been passed down to us. I don't get hung up in the details of whether or not there is direct foot path between the two without back tracking. To me it matters not in what Waltz was trying to teach to Julia and Rhiney.

What I believe we are talking about is 2 trails, two different usage plans. One wagon worthy and another foot path at a different location that did require some back tracking from the board house. If Waltz was trying to get them to a certain location by just one trail, they could have all stayed in the wagon and just enjoyed the ride. There would have been no need to bring up the plan to halt and do a look see from the "board house".

I believe he seized on the idea of going to the board house because it offered a vantage point for viewing the general area where he wanted to direct them. The wagon was for his benefit and he believe he could survive a trip to the board house but not perhaps a full trip around Roger's and back to Phoenix or vice versa. Plus its lower in elevation than Roger's and the air is thicker. Less breathing problems..........Thats my guess. Could be wrong.

With the view before them (from the board house) he could use the range features he pointed out, and those beyond as he would described, as their final guide. He never intended to make that trip with them. He was too fragile and those days had closed for him. He knew that. This was just an exercise to use the actual landscape as his "map" to guide them. He knew and had experience that both Julia and Rhiney had failed to grasp what he was trying to described to them verbally. He thought a visual map against the actual landscape with him pointing out the details "might" fare better.

Now to the question of is the Pit mine "the" LDM? My answer is yes, and no <g>. I've said before, I still believe, its one of Jake's mines but not the one he last worked. I do believe its the one John Reed remembered and tried to find again. Both mines are in the same general area but separated by a canyon and a "piece".

Ted Cox knew more than many have given him credit for (IMO). You don't think the last folks to work this mine just stumbled on it, do you?

Old,

I don't really have an argument with anything you are saying.

My ONLY disagreement was cactusjumper discussed a trail going East from the Board House / Milk Ranch over to the "Pit Mine" near Rogers Canyon Spring.
I had said I didn't know of such a trail and it would be hard to get through by going that way if not impossible.

The map you posted is a good one and interesting, but NOTHING on that map is anywhere near the Board House / Milk Ranch.

The lower right of that map shows the Rogers Trough Rogers Spring area.
The Board House / Milk Ranch is almost 2 miles south of Rogers Trough and 6 - 7 miles to the west.

All I was trying to say is, that map in no way shows a trail from the Board / Milk Ranch over to the Pit Mine by going East.

Best as always,

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Old,

I don't really have an argument with anything you are saying.

My ONLY disagreement was cactusjumper discussed a trail going East from the Board House / Milk Ranch over to the "Pit Mine" near Rogers Canyon Spring.
I had said I didn't know of such a trail and it would be hard to get through by going that way if not impossible.

The map you posted is a good one and interesting, but NOTHING on that map is anywhere near the Board House / Milk Ranch.

The lower right of that map shows the Rogers Trough Rogers Spring area.
The Board House / Milk Ranch is almost 2 miles south of Rogers Trough and 6 - 7 miles to the west.

All I was trying to say is, that map in no way shows a trail from the Board / Milk Ranch over to the Pit Mine by going East.

Best as always,

Matthew

Matthew,

Don't believe I have ever said the portion in bold from your last post. To be precise, I posted a map showing how they would travel from the Milk Ranch to the close vicinity of the Pit Mine. I don't believe anyone today, knows with any certainty if there was a "trail", where I show it in the map, in Waltz's time.

What I have said, many times, is that many modern day roads, highways and trails, started out as old game trails which became Native American trails and were then followed by many other people, including me, and you.

Beyond our differing opinions, it's an interesting topic.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[wrmickel1]

So Joe

Do we agree on the only trail or simply agree to disagree.
Thats the whole flaw in the story, most have invented military trails to fit there stories.

wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

The reason I believe mostly in the one road theory does not come from the map, It comes from old people that worked and lived in the area all there lives. They new Phoenix Mesa Tempe Apache Junction when they were towns, Not just one big City. And they all pretty much agree that the old military trail went north then forked east and west, with the east fork heading northeast to McDowell. But there's a twist to it, the trail was were the power pole are today and the curvy cut backs on the road today were made later. Which makes perfect Military practice stay on the high ground to avoid ambushes.

wrmickel1. That's probably why the Dutchman could see the military trail.

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

I recently received this email from a good friend, and in the first portion he is quoting Matthew:

[cactusjumper,

I do not believe the "Pit Mine" was the Lost Dutchman, and I have some solid reasons why I believe it isn't, but since I can't say for sure exactly where the LDM is, the "Pit Mine" will remain a contender among Dutch Hunters.

Jim Hatt was never sure exactly where the "Milk Ranch" was located but knew it was somewhere North of Queen Valley.
Al Reser, Clay and I were to the site of the old Milk Ranch and there is nothing left of it except for some scraps of boards, nails, remains of a stone water tank and a trash dump.
The Milk Ranch was nearby to where Whitlow Canyon and Milk Ranch canyon meet. There was an old road that ran East from the Cavaness/Bark ranch over to the Milk Ranch then turned South and ran down to Charles Whitlow's Ranch about where Queen Valley is today.

Jim Hatt was correct, there are trails leading North into the Superstitions from both the Cavaness/Bark board house, and the Milk Ranch house.
But there are no trails going East and that is where you have to go to get to the Pit Mine. In fact it's quite a ways over impassable terrain to try and go East. You can't get to the Pit Mine by going North from the Milk Ranch.

If Waltz was going to the "Pit Mine" he would go out of his way to go to either the Cavaness/Bark or Milk ranch board house. He could not reach the Pit Mine by going North, he would have had to backtrack and go South and then turn East where Whitlow Canyon empties into Queen Creek.

I've been to the Pit Mine and just to the east of the mine a little ways is the foundation of a rock house. Some believe that was Waltz's two room house he talked about.

Matthew
cactusjumper,

You have to remember those are Tonto National Forest trails that were put in from the 1930's through the 1960's and were not established in Waltz's time.
The Fraser ranch is the reason for the trail going east from approximately the Barkley Basin over to Fraser Ranch and that ranch wasn't there when Waltz was working his mine.
I will concede however that if someone knew how to get thru that country they could have made it to the area of the Pit Mine but it would have been a tortuous round about way to go.
It's 6-7 miles of winding around canyons and impasses. Still, it could be done if someone knew the route and had enough time and energy to try it.
One thing I've learned is you can't rule anything out or shortchange those old timers ability and determination.

Matthew ]
________________________________________

"Joe,
Matthew Roberts does not know where the Old Lady's Milk Ranch really is. There no boards, stone water tank or scrap dump. The stone foundation is covered up by forestation: GPS location: 33°22'8.61"N 111°16'26.67"W will put you within a few feet of the exact location. From there Waltz would have hiked to Whitlow Canyon, north towards Reeds Water, turned east on to Randolph Canyon to Dripping Springs. There is a cave on the north side of the canyon where Waltz is reportedly supposed to have slept. This where he would have picked up Fraser Canyon To the J.F. Ranch then on to Woodbury Cabin and from there up over the ridge and dropped right down on to his mine.

Roberts needs to get off his duff, take a deep breath, go there and take that hike. Once you enter Randolph Canyon, it is a straight line to the ridge and once up on the ridge you can look right down on the Dogs ear and the mine.

Jacob Waltz was a man in those days and not the pansies that society is raising to day - is not a tortuous round about way to go.

Map it out on Google Earth or any other map for that matter.] I have been in the cave and made that hike several times. I can assure you it is NOT tortuous nor a round about way.



"You can't get to the Pit Mine by going North from the Milk Ranch." With a statement like that it is obvious he's never been there.

Feel free to post this in it entirety, just leave my name out of it."
_______________________________

While I won't mention his name, It's someone who's knowledge I completely trust. I know his comments won't set well with Matthew, but what's been stated is, pretty much, what I have already said. You absolutely can get from the Milk Ranch to the Pit Mine without much hardship.

You will all have to make your own conclusions.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Azquester]

I was researching a trip to the Pit Mine with google earth and stumbled upon some interesting evidence of someone working it beginning back in 1992. I'm going to see if any more satellite photo's are available between 1992 and 2000. This clearly shows a large camp established near the pit. Some one had a large crew working the Gold from there. If it's true a few people became rich off the Legend!



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View attachment 1519683

 

[markmar]

All,

I recently received this email from a good friend, and in the first portion he is quoting Matthew:

[cactusjumper,

I do not believe the "Pit Mine" was the Lost Dutchman, and I have some solid reasons why I believe it isn't, but since I can't say for sure exactly where the LDM is, the "Pit Mine" will remain a contender among Dutch Hunters.

Jim Hatt was never sure exactly where the "Milk Ranch" was located but knew it was somewhere North of Queen Valley.
Al Reser, Clay and I were to the site of the old Milk Ranch and there is nothing left of it except for some scraps of boards, nails, remains of a stone water tank and a trash dump.
The Milk Ranch was nearby to where Whitlow Canyon and Milk Ranch canyon meet. There was an old road that ran East from the Cavaness/Bark ranch over to the Milk Ranch then turned South and ran down to Charles Whitlow's Ranch about where Queen Valley is today.

Jim Hatt was correct, there are trails leading North into the Superstitions from both the Cavaness/Bark board house, and the Milk Ranch house.
But there are no trails going East and that is where you have to go to get to the Pit Mine. In fact it's quite a ways over impassable terrain to try and go East. You can't get to the Pit Mine by going North from the Milk Ranch.

If Waltz was going to the "Pit Mine" he would go out of his way to go to either the Cavaness/Bark or Milk ranch board house. He could not reach the Pit Mine by going North, he would have had to backtrack and go South and then turn East where Whitlow Canyon empties into Queen Creek.

I've been to the Pit Mine and just to the east of the mine a little ways is the foundation of a rock house. Some believe that was Waltz's two room house he talked about.

Matthew
cactusjumper,

You have to remember those are Tonto National Forest trails that were put in from the 1930's through the 1960's and were not established in Waltz's time.
The Fraser ranch is the reason for the trail going east from approximately the Barkley Basin over to Fraser Ranch and that ranch wasn't there when Waltz was working his mine.
I will concede however that if someone knew how to get thru that country they could have made it to the area of the Pit Mine but it would have been a tortuous round about way to go.
It's 6-7 miles of winding around canyons and impasses. Still, it could be done if someone knew the route and had enough time and energy to try it.
One thing I've learned is you can't rule anything out or shortchange those old timers ability and determination.

Matthew ]
________________________________________

"Joe,
Matthew Roberts does not know where the Old Lady's Milk Ranch really is. There no boards, stone water tank or scrap dump. The stone foundation is covered up by forestation: GPS location: 33°22'8.61"N 111°16'26.67"W will put you within a few feet of the exact location. From there Waltz would have hiked to Whitlow Canyon, north towards Reeds Water, turned east on to Randolph Canyon to Dripping Springs. There is a cave on the north side of the canyon where Waltz is reportedly supposed to have slept. This where he would have picked up Fraser Canyon To the J.F. Ranch then on to Woodbury Cabin and from there up over the ridge and dropped right down on to his mine.

Roberts needs to get off his duff, take a deep breath, go there and take that hike. Once you enter Randolph Canyon, it is a straight line to the ridge and once up on the ridge you can look right down on the Dogs ear and the mine.

Jacob Waltz was a man in those days and not the pansies that society is raising to day - is not a tortuous round about way to go.

Map it out on Google Earth or any other map for that matter.] I have been in the cave and made that hike several times. I can assure you it is NOT tortuous nor a round about way.



"You can't get to the Pit Mine by going North from the Milk Ranch." With a statement like that it is obvious he's never been there.

Feel free to post this in it entirety, just leave my name out of it."
_______________________________

While I won't mention his name, It's someone who's knowledge I completely trust. I know his comments won't set well with Matthew, but what's been stated is, pretty much, what I have already said. You absolutely can get from the Milk Ranch to the Pit Mine without much hardship.

You will all have to make your own conclusions.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

As Matthew stated in the Milk Ranch thread at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/417941-milk-ranch.html , he went at the Milk Ranch site . Now , if he don't know the easiest way from there to the Pit mine , this is not a fact that he don't know where the Milk Ranch was .
Also , IMO , two things are real for certain : first , Waltz never was at the Milk ranch , and second , the Pit mine is not the LDM .

 

[markmar]

I was researching a trip to the Pit Mine with google earth and stumbled upon some interesting evidence of someone working it beginning back in 1992. I'm going to see if any more satellite photo's are available between 1992 and 2000. This clearly shows a large camp established near the pit. Some one had a large crew working the Gold from there. If it's true a few people became rich off the Legend!



View attachment 1519682



View attachment 1519683

Now , the Forest Service could collect the finger amprents fron the pipes inside the mine and find out who worked the mine illegally .
What irony for the lucky crew ...

 

[audigger53]

Doubtful after 20-25 years. Fingerprints are from skin oil. If you wash your hands with 91% Alc, you will leave no finger prints. Learned that with Laser printers with the bulbs in the fuser. If you touched them and left the skin oil finger print it would concentrate the heat at that point and break the bulb. Same trick for replacing Halogen bulbs in the headlights of cars. Wash your hands with 91%, not 70% Alc and you can touch the bulb without it blowing. Last thing about the headlight bulbs. When one goes out, replace both and save the old "good one" for a spare. The circuit is to both bulbs and the new bulb has less resistance so it will draw more current and blow again in about 2-3 months IF you don't replace both with new bulbs at the same time. That's from Electronics knowledge and also from learning the hard way. Sorry to get off topic for a bit.

 

[somehiker]

I was researching a trip to the Pit Mine with google earth and stumbled upon some interesting evidence of someone working it beginning back in 1992. I'm going to see if any more satellite photo's are available between 1992 and 2000. This clearly shows a large camp established near the pit. Some one had a large crew working the Gold from there. If it's true a few people became rich off the Legend!



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Matthew had posted this claim map previously, and seeing as how the claim locations shown have been public for quite a long time I would think many have used it to explore that area in the hopes of finding something worthwhile. So what you say is certainly possible.



If you want to take the time to do so, copy the claim outlines to a modern topo and/or GE views and take those along with you when you get your group together.
Should help with understanding what is what, when and if you can find the "pit mine" or any other nearby diggings out there.
Personally, I still don't believe this pit mine is the LDM. Partly because there was no mention of silver ore in the stories that Waltz or his closest associates passed on.
Nor was there any description of a cache located so deep in any mine, silver or gold, that it would take a group of men three years of work and all that equipment to recover it. Waltz only mentioned that one cache was in the "rat hole" tunnel down below the pit, and just behind the partial wall of rocks that he had concealed it with. The other two caches could be watched over from his mine, so that negates the "deep cache" theory as well IMO. If there was any connection between that "pit mine" and Waltz, I would still suggest that it may have been the mine that Waltz and Wieser helped Peralta with in the earlier chapter of that saga, with the true "LDM" being the one they or he found the Mexicans working elsewhere in the range at a later date. Having killed the Mexicans, and perhaps thinking they may have been related to their former partner, it makes sense that he might be reluctant to file a legal claim on his gold mine for that reason alone IMO.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

As Matthew stated in the Milk Ranch thread at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/417941-milk-ranch.html , he went at the Milk Ranch site . Now , if he don't know the easiest way from there to the Pit mine , this is not a fact that he don't know where the Milk Ranch was .
Also , IMO , two things are real for certain : first , Waltz never was at the Milk ranch , and second , the Pit mine is not the LDM .

Marius,

Don't believe I have ever said that the Pit Mine was the LDM. On the other hand, it does have more going for it than anything else that has ever been documented. How can you be certain that "Waltz never was at the Milk ranch"?

Matthew is very familiar with the Superstitions and their many treasure stories, but he is not mistake free. That's why so many of his past posts have been deleted. Maybe he was at the Milk Ranch site, and it's possible he was not.

I know the man who originally located the Pit Mine and showed it to those who worked it for those three years. I have more true information about this story than you will ever be able to conjure-up with Google.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Marius,

Don't believe I have ever said that the Pit Mine was the LDM. On the other hand, it does have more going for it than anything else that has ever been documented. How can you be certain that "Waltz never was at the Milk ranch"?

Matthew is very familiar with the Superstitions and their many treasure stories, but he is not mistake free. That's why so many of his past posts have been deleted. Maybe he was at the Milk Ranch site, and it's possible he was not.

I know the man who originally located the Pit Mine and showed it to those who worked it for those three years. I have more true information about this story than you will ever be able to conjure-up with Google.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

I am not interested in the Pit mine story . I didn't waste my time to see it even in GE . You know the real modern story of the Pit mine , and that's good . You know a secret story and I know many other . Everybody with their secret stories .

And why I'm sure Waltz was never at the Milk ranch ?

1- There don't exist any document or oral story which tells how Waltz was ever to the MIlk ranch .

2- The Milk ranch location was not in the way to the LDM , in regards with the clues that gave Waltz to Julia , as starting point the SW corner of the SUperstitions to Sombrero Butte .

3- Waltz told how in the board house from where they would started the trip to the LDM , lived Mrs Cavaness . So , Mrs Cavaness lived at what today is the Quarter Cicle U ranch , and was the board house that Waltz had meant .

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

I am not interested in the Pit mine story . I didn't waste my time to see it even in GE . You know the real modern story of the Pit mine , and that's good . You know a secret story and I know many other . Everybody with their secret stories .

And why I'm sure Waltz was never at the Milk ranch ?

1- There don't exist any document or oral story which tells how Waltz was ever to the MIlk ranch .

2- The Milk ranch location was not in the way to the LDM , in regards with the clues that gave Waltz to Julia , as starting point the SW corner of the SUperstitions to Sombrero Butte .

3- Waltz told how in the board house from where they would started the trip to the LDM , lived Mrs Cavaness . So , Mrs Cavaness lived at what today is the Quarter Cicle U ranch , and was the board house that Waltz had meant .

Marius,

First of all, even in the supposed Waltz quotes, he does not mention the name of the lady who lived there. If you would do a little more research, you would know there were two Mrs. Cavaness'. Do you know where the second wife lived?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Marius,

First of all, even in the supposed Waltz quotes, he does not mention the name of the lady who lived there. If you would do a little more research, you would know there were two Mrs. Cavaness'. Do you know where the second wife lived?

Good luck,

Joe

I believe the second Mrs Cavaness lived with Matt Cavaness .
I was talking about the first Matt Cavaness wife , who after they divorced , lived at the River Ranch or what today is the Quarter Circle U Ranch .
​If you want to believe how the board house that Waltz meant was the Milk Ranch , then Ok . From there exist a way to go at the LDM .Like about a dozen ways from another directions .

 

[cactusjumper]

I believe the second Mrs Cavaness lived with Matt Cavaness .
I was talking about the first Matt Cavaness wife , who after they divorced , lived at the River Ranch or what today is the Quarter Circle U Ranch .
​If you want to believe how the board house that Waltz meant was the Milk Ranch , then Ok . From there exist a way to go at the LDM .Like about a dozen ways from another directions .

Marius,

I never doubted that you were talking about the first Mrs. Cavaness. Can you tell us what historical source(s) you use when you are voicing your opinions on Matthew Cavaness and his two marriages? Where were Matthew and Wife 2 living in 1895?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Marius,

I never doubted that you were talking about the first Mrs. Cavaness. Can you tell us what historical source(s) you use when you are voicing your opinions on Matthew Cavaness and his two marriages? Where were Matthew and Wife 2 living in 1895?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

Matt Cavaness and his second wife ( Laura Jackson ) , moved in 1895 from Duncan to Globe . The historical sources that I have used are at https://www.asu.edu/lib/archives/azbio/bios/CAVANESS.PDF in the last page .

However , I don't understand what relation could have, where lived Matt Cavaness with his second wife in 1895 , with where Waltz meant was the Mrs Cavaness ( Alice Rowe ) board house .

 

[Cubfan64]

I was researching a trip to the Pit Mine with google earth and stumbled upon some interesting evidence of someone working it beginning back in 1992. I'm going to see if any more satellite photo's are available between 1992 and 2000. This clearly shows a large camp established near the pit. Some one had a large crew working the Gold from there. If it's true a few people became rich off the Legend!

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Bill - I don't see anything clearly indicating multiple tents or a foot trail leading to the pit mine from those pixelated images. That could just as easily be a glitch in Google Earth's software causing that anomaly don't you think?

 

[Azquester]

Bill - I don't see anything clearly indicating multiple tents or a foot trail leading to the pit mine from those pixelated images. That could just as easily be a glitch in Google Earth's software causing that anomaly don't you think?

Cuban,

It could be...I intend to find out at that exact camping site. Should be some evidence of a small tent city. If you do the GE Pro Historical Imagery using the slider on the acquisition dates while centered over that area you can see the cleared and flattened ground the camp was on after they left.

The images are of a white canvas wall tent, and other surrounding tents, awnings, etc., in a circle around it, with the shadows they all create. Look it up on Google Earth Pro while you zoom in. The trails are a bit harder as they disappeared into the brush once they left the site which was before the next acquisition date a decade later.

Satellite catches these events pretty easy and it's most probably a prospecting camping outpost. It could be the pit guys, or not. I just thought it was important to search closely while getting ready for my trip in there when that appeared. I did a screen capture with the longitude and latitude so it should be easy to find.

I've never seen another anomaly like that on GE. Not just one pixilation like that. It should be easy enough to discount.

 

[Azquester]

Here's an enhancement of the foot trails from the campsite to the pit mine area.


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