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Thread: Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

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  1. #1441
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    977
    842 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Mickelson

    From your description , I feel you are just few feet from your search's objective . But I still don't understand what is your objective .
    The Ojective is the Heart, The small little one on the Priest Map.
    The large Heart starts your Journey. Your main objective is the ore,

    And yes Somehiker the gold does fall out of the ore a lot, you just dump your backpack out into 5 gallon buckets and go get more till every bucket in the bed of your truck is full.
    But when the ore is broke up nuggets and clinkers and flakes just keep coming out.

    babymick1
    weekender likes this.

  2. #1442

    Jan 2014
    1,342
    2308 times
    You obviously have given everything careful and serious thought, and that's commendable. Here are some more things for you to think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    1 - Why to fill in the chimneys , practice that would work against Peraltas like would work against the " jump in " peons . In that era like today , the time was money .
    My thinking is that Miguel had reasoned that it would just take him and his hundred strong crew of peons to cover/uncover in one or two days, that a handful of men would have had to take a good couple of weeks, or even a month to uncover. That in itself would discourage just about every peon from attempting to go back.

    I disagree that they operated on a "time was money" for philosophy- I believe it was more that they had to make every trip really count, because it was a dangerous journey of over 300 miles, one way. With such a large caravan, it would no doubt have taken around a month to travel up there, and another month back. With that in mind, it's not hard to envision them staying up there all winter, and everything I have read and seen in those mountains, myself, points to that. Another benefit in doing that is that by staying there up all winter, it forces anyone else to have to come back in the inhospitable summer months if they wanted to work behind Miguel's back.

    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    2 - Why to leave around rich in gold ore tailings , that would born suspicions and would start an attempt to discover the source of those tailings , when they could threw the useless tailings afar in a place that would been hard to be discovered and if discovered to be not easy to recognize from what type of diggings the tailings were produced .
    It's absolutely impossible to cover up the footsteps that a hundred plus men and twice that number in burros/horses were going to leave up in the mountains. (Think about the number of ironwood trees that were cut down to continuously feed a smelter). If you're going to dump the tailings in one place, even if it's far away, you're still going to leave a well-worn path back to where the tailings came from. Even if you dump it in three different places, you're going to leave three paths that eventually converge. Don't forget that these were the days of the very skillful trackers.

    So my reasoning is that instead of working against that, Miguel turned it to his advantage by scattering the tailings all over and leaving a myriad of paths. I believe that Deering mentioned this "myriad of paths" in his account (correct me if I'm wrong).

    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Also , in none account to this day was stated how rich in ore tailings were found around or have led anyone in that area . What John Reed stated about the rich tailings near the shaft/placer mine ( the shaft is few feet from the dry wash bottom ) , were the tailings left by the Mexicans ( maybe Peraltas ex peons or ex peons relatives ) who worked the mine at the time when John Reed and his father were there , and at the time Waltz found the mine . Those last Mexicans who worked the shaft in Waltz era , didn't bother to hide the mine or the tailings , like the clue says : " From over the top of a low ridge you could see down the far side where there was a small clearing, an open hole and a mine dump. (Herman Petrasch) " .
    I believe Reed's trip was in 1884, if I'm not wrong, so that would be some 40-odd years later. And you are probably right, what his father stumbled on was the result of someone going back many years later, or someone who had stumbled across one of the chimney deposits left open as a result of the massacre which "froze" an ongoing operation. That is, if the Reed account is truthful. Don't forget that Bark eventually became disgusted with Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    And if Peraltas have heard about the Superstitions Mountains to have rich mines and other stuff , and how that info led them there , i believe is truth . But I don't believe they knew the exact spot of that location from the beginning .. To find it , they have started prospecting from the Salt River into the mountains , and after many years , they were able to discover the old diggings , but not all at all . The fact how Peraltas named the remains of the Santa Fe church as Caverna con Casa and Casa Caverna , this make me think how they didn't know what the ruins represented and how didn't find what they were looking for and what would been the reason of their quest ( if this was ).
    This part of the tale is perhaps the most interesting to me- as I mentioned, Miguel was led up there. He didn't just go 300 miles on a whim or to look around for old diggings.

    Also the trail they took led them to Twin Buttes, which meant that they followed.... a very old trail.

  3. #1443

    Jan 2014
    1,342
    2308 times
    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Deducer, what is Syn Doad? Is it someone's name in Gaelic? Interesting post! I hope your source agrees to let you post more about it. Best, Jim
    I have no idea, sorry. Perhaps someone on here does? All I have is a lengthy handwritten manuscript with "Syn Doad Manuscript" written along the side margin. It's a very articulate and well-written manuscript so whoever this Doad fella was, he was smart and well-educated.

  4. #1444
    ca
    May 2007
    3,071
    3502 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Frisian
    Translates to "his death"
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  5. #1445
    mt
    Sep 2014
    1,821
    4620 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    I have no idea, sorry. Perhaps someone on here does? All I have is a lengthy handwritten manuscript with "Syn Doad Manuscript" written along the side margin. It's a very articulate and well-written manuscript so whoever this Doad fella was, he was smart and well-educated.
    It translates from old Germanic to, "his death". Maybe an end of life statement from an identified source?

    (edit: oops - doubled up on you hiker)
    Last edited by sdcfia; Jan 13, 2018 at 09:12 AM.
    "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
    Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many."

    Buddha

  6. #1446
    ca
    May 2007
    3,071
    3502 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    No problem. That was my thought as well....a final testament.
    Makes sense, given the ties to Germanic language areas which many of the Jesuits in Sonora came from.
    I don't see where the words syn or doad appear in any modern material either.
    Last edited by somehiker; Jan 13, 2018 at 09:24 AM.
    Oroblanco likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  7. #1447

    Jan 2014
    1,342
    2308 times
    Very interesting.. didn't know that.
    Oroblanco likes this.

  8. #1448
    gr
    Oct 2012
    2,500
    3664 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    You obviously have given everything careful and serious thought, and that's commendable. Here are some more things for you to think about.



    My thinking is that Miguel had reasoned that it would just take him and his hundred strong crew of peons to cover/uncover in one or two days, that a handful of men would have had to take a good couple of weeks, or even a month to uncover. That in itself would discourage just about every peon from attempting to go back.

    I disagree that they operated on a "time was money" for philosophy- I believe it was more that they had to make every trip really count, because it was a dangerous journey of over 300 miles, one way. With such a large caravan, it would no doubt have taken around a month to travel up there, and another month back. With that in mind, it's not hard to envision them staying up there all winter, and everything I have read and seen in those mountains, myself, points to that. Another benefit in doing that is that by staying there up all winter, it forces anyone else to have to come back in the inhospitable summer months if they wanted to work behind Miguel's back.



    It's absolutely impossible to cover up the footsteps that a hundred plus men and twice that number in burros/horses were going to leave up in the mountains. (Think about the number of ironwood trees that were cut down to continuously feed a smelter). If you're going to dump the tailings in one place, even if it's far away, you're still going to leave a well-worn path back to where the tailings came from. Even if you dump it in three different places, you're going to leave three paths that eventually converge. Don't forget that these were the days of the very skillful trackers.

    So my reasoning is that instead of working against that, Miguel turned it to his advantage by scattering the tailings all over and leaving a myriad of paths. I believe that Deering mentioned this "myriad of paths" in his account (correct me if I'm wrong).



    I believe Reed's trip was in 1884, if I'm not wrong, so that would be some 40-odd years later. And you are probably right, what his father stumbled on was the result of someone going back many years later, or someone who had stumbled across one of the chimney deposits left open as a result of the massacre which "froze" an ongoing operation. That is, if the Reed account is truthful. Don't forget that Bark eventually became disgusted with Reed.



    This part of the tale is perhaps the most interesting to me- as I mentioned, Miguel was led up there. He didn't just go 300 miles on a whim or to look around for old diggings.

    Also the trail they took led them to Twin Buttes, which meant that they followed.... a very old trail.
    deducer

    I don't know if Miguel Peralta used those practices to cover the mines , but I believe his descendants used what we know today as a " Mexican style " cover up . I believe also , how he was not so afraid about his peons to go back in the summer time to work the mines , knowing how this would been almost impossible concerning the weather , and about the hostile Apache who would not allow a small band to survive on their teritory .

    Now about the well worn paths that would leave the peons in their way from the mines to the spot which they would drop the tailings and back . I believe they were not bothered about the trail that would go up from the camp below along the ridge to the tailings dump region and around the mountain , but they gave more attention to the " trick in the trail " , which was to use a narrow pass to the mines region and to erase all the mining tracings of the whole small region . Like Waltz did with his mines alone , I believe the Mexicans ( who were many ) could do for all the mines region . Also IMO , the horses , mules and the camps , were low at the base of the mountain . Maybe few mules were at the top of the diggings , where the peons had to carry the tailings on bags or baskets .

    For sure John Reed stumble on the tailings that were left by someone after the 1854 . There were not mines left uncovered concerning the massacre after the 1854 , because the Salazar account says how Peraltas descendants came to the region in 1854 , worked and COVERED the mines after surveying them . For sure the last party had not the force to cover the mines in a Miguel fashion , but only in a " Mexican " style . So , that's the way we will find covered the mines today .
    To me the Reed account is more truthful than the Syn Doad , because i found many good info in Reed's that fits to the profile rock region , instead the Syn Doad from which account I know little things that are only what you have posted here .

    The Syn Doad story with the rich tailings spreaded around the whole region , seems to me like a journey to the " Edem's lost small valley " , which is only to mislead and a journey to the " Neverland " , a non existed country .
    Last edited by markmar; Jan 13, 2018 at 12:02 PM.
    Oroblanco likes this.
    Marius


  9. #1449
    us
    Dec 2017
    Ash Fork, AZ and NE PA
    Tesoro
    53
    179 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Syn Doad...Ahhh...thank you SH and sdcfia, I see it now...

    Deducer, sounds like you have a great manuscript there!
    deducer, Oroblanco and larrywv like this.

  10. #1450
    us
    Dec 2008
    1,470
    3334 times
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    You obviously have given everything careful and serious thought, and that's commendable. Here are some more things for you to think about.



    My thinking is that Miguel had reasoned that it would just take him and his hundred strong crew of peons to cover/uncover in one or two days, that a handful of men would have had to take a good couple of weeks, or even a month to uncover. That in itself would discourage just about every peon from attempting to go back.

    I disagree that they operated on a "time was money" for philosophy- I believe it was more that they had to make every trip really count, because it was a dangerous journey of over 300 miles, one way. With such a large caravan, it would no doubt have taken around a month to travel up there, and another month back. With that in mind, it's not hard to envision them staying up there all winter, and everything I have read and seen in those mountains, myself, points to that. Another benefit in doing that is that by staying there up all winter, it forces anyone else to have to come back in the inhospitable summer months if they wanted to work behind Miguel's back.



    It's absolutely impossible to cover up the footsteps that a hundred plus men and twice that number in burros/horses were going to leave up in the mountains. (Think about the number of ironwood trees that were cut down to continuously feed a smelter). If you're going to dump the tailings in one place, even if it's far away, you're still going to leave a well-worn path back to where the tailings came from. Even if you dump it in three different places, you're going to leave three paths that eventually converge. Don't forget that these were the days of the very skillful trackers.

    So my reasoning is that instead of working against that, Miguel turned it to his advantage by scattering the tailings all over and leaving a myriad of paths. I believe that Deering mentioned this "myriad of paths" in his account (correct me if I'm wrong).



    I believe Reed's trip was in 1884, if I'm not wrong, so that would be some 40-odd years later. And you are probably right, what his father stumbled on was the result of someone going back many years later, or someone who had stumbled across one of the chimney deposits left open as a result of the massacre which "froze" an ongoing operation. That is, if the Reed account is truthful. Don't forget that Bark eventually became disgusted with Reed.



    This part of the tale is perhaps the most interesting to me- as I mentioned, Miguel was led up there. He didn't just go 300 miles on a whim or to look around for old diggings.

    Also the trail they took led them to Twin Buttes, which meant that they followed.... a very old trail.
    i think you guys are a little confused about tailings...tailings are what has already been run through the mill after the gold was pulled from it...they would be crushed to powder...and if they were using the arrestras near canyon lake then the tailings would have been dumped in the river and long gone.....on a mine site you usually have a few different piles....the tailings...which have already been through the mill and will be powder....then you have the dump...which is usually worthless country rock or low grade ore that they didn't want to waste time milling..then you would have a stock pile...that is the good stuff they would transport to the mill...if the stories are correct and they hauled the stockpile to canyon lake to run through the arrestras then there would be no tailings on site..just a dump..and the dumps were hand sorted to make sure no high grade ore went in the dump...sometimes the workers would toss hi grade on to the dump and sneak back later and steal it or sometimes accidentally hi grade made it on the dump ...so if someone wanted to hide a mine all they would have to do is haul the dump to the bottom of the canyon...the first good flash flood would scatter it downstream

  11. #1451

    Jan 2014
    1,342
    2308 times
    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    i think you guys are a little confused about tailings...tailings are what has already been run through the mill after the gold was pulled from it...they would be crushed to powder...and if they were using the arrestras near canyon lake then the tailings would have been dumped in the river and long gone.....on a mine site you usually have a few different piles....the tailings...which have already been through the mill and will be powder....then you have the dump...which is usually worthless country rock or low grade ore that they didn't want to waste time milling..then you would have a stock pile...that is the good stuff they would transport to the mill...if the stories are correct and they hauled the stockpile to canyon lake to run through the arrestras then there would be no tailings on site..just a dump..and the dumps were hand sorted to make sure no high grade ore went in the dump...sometimes the workers would toss hi grade on to the dump and sneak back later and steal it or sometimes accidentally hi grade made it on the dump ...so if someone wanted to hide a mine all they would have to do is haul the dump to the bottom of the canyon...the first good flash flood would scatter it downstream

    Thanks for the corrections. I don't know the first thing about mining and my knowledge of geology is pretty nil, so what I have been referring to as tailings, I should be referring to as the dump or low grade ore that were not hauled to the arrastres.
    Oroblanco likes this.

  12. #1452

    Jan 2014
    1,342
    2308 times
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    deducer

    I don't know if Miguel Peralta used those practices to cover the mines , but I believe his descendants used what we know today as a " Mexican style " cover up . I believe also , how he was not so afraid about his peons to go back in the summer time to work the mines , knowing how this would been almost impossible concerning the weather , and about the hostile Apache who would not allow a small band to survive on their teritory .

    Now about the well worn paths that would leave the peons in their way from the mines to the spot which they would drop the tailings and back . I believe they were not bothered about the trail that would go up from the camp below along the ridge to the tailings dump region and around the mountain , but they gave more attention to the " trick in the trail " , which was to use a narrow pass to the mines region and to erase all the mining tracings of the whole small region . Like Waltz did with his mines alone , I believe the Mexicans ( who were many ) could do for all the mines region . Also IMO , the horses , mules and the camps , were low at the base of the mountain . Maybe few mules were at the top of the diggings , where the peons had to carry the tailings on bags or baskets .

    For sure John Reed stumble on the tailings that were left by someone after the 1854 . There were not mines left uncovered concerning the massacre after the 1854 , because the Salazar account says how Peraltas descendants came to the region in 1854 , worked and COVERED the mines after surveying them . For sure the last party had not the force to cover the mines in a Miguel fashion , but only in a " Mexican " style . So , that's the way we will find covered the mines today .
    To me the Reed account is more truthful than the Syn Doad , because i found many good info in Reed's that fits to the profile rock region , instead the Syn Doad from which account I know little things that are only what you have posted here .

    The Syn Doad story with the rich tailings spreaded around the whole region , seems to me like a journey to the " Edem's lost small valley " , which is only to mislead and a journey to the " Neverland " , a non existed country .
    Before we get any further, I want to clarify carefully- that when I discuss the Miguel Peralta expeditions, and the things he did, as a organizer, and the information he originally derived from what supposedly was an agreement originating in Arizpe, I'm discussing the original trips made in the 1840's and probably earlier and occurring on a yearly basis, and finally ending with the first "massacre" which was more likely a running series of battles and raids by the Apache and Yavapais that resulted in too much decimation that the original Peraltas gave up. The second massacre which occurred in the 1860's was, I believe, composed of a smaller, not as well organized or armed band of either relatives, a branch of the Peraltas, peons from the original expeditions, or even highgraders, and this second massacre was the real one, the big wipeout, and this is covered in detail in the "Syn Doad Manuscript." There's a lot of confusion involved, in regard to Miguel Peralta and where exactly he fits into the big picture- part of the problem, IMO, is that name- looks like it's the equivalent of a "John Smith" here. I could well be wrong.

    I am not sure what you mean by 1854.
    Oroblanco and larrywv like this.

  13. #1453
    gr
    Oct 2012
    2,500
    3664 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Before we get any further, I want to clarify carefully- that when I discuss the Miguel Peralta expeditions, and the things he did, as a organizer, and the information he originally derived from what supposedly was an agreement originating in Arizpe, I'm discussing the original trips made in the 1840's and probably earlier and occurring on a yearly basis, and finally ending with the first "massacre" which was more likely a running series of battles and raids by the Apache and Yavapais that resulted in too much decimation that the original Peraltas gave up. The second massacre which occurred in the 1860's was, I believe, composed of a smaller, not as well organized or armed band of either relatives, a branch of the Peraltas, peons from the original expeditions, or even highgraders, and this second massacre was the real one, the big wipeout, and this is covered in detail in the "Syn Doad Manuscript." There's a lot of confusion involved, in regard to Miguel Peralta and where exactly he fits into the big picture- part of the problem, IMO, is that name- looks like it's the equivalent of a "John Smith" here. I could well be wrong.

    I am not sure what you mean by 1854.
    I can't comment on the Syn Doad manuscript , because I have not read it . But about the 1854 , was the year when the Peraltas decendants were to the mines location for the last time . This story was told by Cristobal Peralta to Salazar in 1924 and you can read this account at RootsWeb.com Home Page

    After that date , i believe how from the Peraltas miners descendants , only Gonzales went to search for the mines without succes . If there was another massacre in 1860 , I don't know about , but if in the Syn Doad manuscript is written this event , maybe took place .
    Also , if at the mines location , in a specific time frame , were piles of mined rock rich in gold ore spreaded all over the place , maybe could been . But from what I have read from all the accounts since Reed and Waltz were at the mine location , nothing was mentioned about this situation .
    So , all would been possible to occured, and all could change in regards to whom worked the mines along all the period before the mines became lost . All the doors are full open for futher details .
    Oroblanco likes this.
    Marius


  14. #1454
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    977
    842 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    photoshop...lol
    Don't even have a computer Dave, But what I do got is a special skill to separate the wheat from the chaff, To track down
    lost things and to think and act on my own, And to know when some fellas are but hurt. Because there's those who can
    and those who follow,

    That puts you naysayers on team Holmes.

    Upmost regards to you Dave

    Take care and get off the lazy-boy

    babymick1

  15. #1455
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    977
    842 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    Actually Mick, I think Joe has given up on you showing up to collect that $100 bet you made with him what, two years ago when you were claiming to have the stones all figgured out. We's all still waitin to see THAT first.
    BTW, how'd you manage to get that ore home, without all that loose "gold" fallin out of it ??
    Somehiker

    Shall we raise the stakes, Me and Team Joe! Since he help me more then he knows, Our bet is null and Void, And I will
    Hand deliver to Joe a actual chunk of that very ore on The London Bridge.

    His to keep,

    Apoud you accepting a bet For $1000 dollars weather Joe claimed it to be fake, I'll pay you. Joe says it real you pay me.
    And I'll even throw in the Maps, I'll lay the jourany out to Joe with pic's and meanings and he gets to say, There Solved or there not. I leave no holes for for doubts.

    I work one way it's there it counts, not there it gets tossed out, like the Matchbox.

    There's the bet. I do not accept Canadian funds, Us Money Only!

    Do you want to take the bet. Let me know

    babymick1

 

 
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