AZ Unknown Mines

[chlsbrns]

Austin

Yes, You bet' Knowing that AZ is the most anti federal government state in the US, I'm sure they would have a lot to say about the feds stealing from there coffers.

Wrmickel1

We are talking about Federal Wilderness not State property.

 

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[chlsbrns]

How many precious metal mines is the US government operating? I can tell you - zero - they are not going to get out of suits and ties to work a mine. The federal government is not in the precious metals mining business, other than in accepting royalties on the proceeds and taxes on the profits. Stop listening to propaganda and look it up yourself, don't take my word for it. The federal government stands to benefit when someone starts up a new gold/silver mine, or copper mine etc. They don't want people just tearing up the country in the process, as was happening prior to the Wilderness Act. One rather whacky lady was even blasting down Weavers Needle thinking the gold mine was hidden inside it somehow. The govt had to do something or there would be little of that wild country left to enjoy for anyone.

Heck the govt even allowed people to go digging in a US Army base in Cochise county not that long ago, even supplied the heavy equipment to help dig it out, which was unfortunately unsuccessful. I guess for some people if you can't take a dozer in and level off the mountains in your search for gold, then it is not worth even trying.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

I looked it up and you are incorrect.

 

[wrmickel1]

We are talking about Federal Wilderness not State property.

Chlsbrns

Yes, and you figured that all out on your own. And know dead end link to prove it, MY GOD

Do you think there drilling oil here in North Dakota at a record pace and the State and the feds aren't both making tons of cash. Voted #1 best run State last week, NORTH DAKOTA. a ton of money in the bank, thousands of jobs to be filled, low uninployment














Wrmickel1

 

[chlsbrns]

Chlsbrns

Yes, and you figured that all out on your own. And know dead end link to prove it, MY GOD

Do you think there drilling oil here in North Dakota at a record pace and the State and the feds aren't both making tons of cash. Voted #1 best run State last week, NORTH DAKOTA. a ton of money in the bank, thousands of jobs to be filled, low uninployment


Wrmickel1

What's that have to do with the Federal Wilderness and the fact that the Feds will never allow anyone to mine Federal Wilderness lands?

No to mention in 10 years probably sooner when their environment is ruined and people are dropping like flies, sick, ect it will be the worst run State and dbt ridden doing environmental cleanup.

 

[chlsbrns]

Who could have guessed that the multitude of people searching for the LDM are part of the reason for the Wilderness Act that has stopped ALL future mining in a Wilderness Area?

http://mines.az.gov/DigitalLibrary/usbm_mla/USBM_MLA_136-82.pdf

Weaver's Needle in the NWI/4 sec. 18, T. I N., R. I0 E. is often
thought to be one of the key landmarks for finding the lost mine. Jacob
Waltz, the Dutchman of the legend, died in Phoenix in 1891. Since then,
treasure hunters in search for the lost mine have dug hundreds of holes
in sight of Weaver's Needle.

Bureau of Mines personnel sampled and mapped some of the
lost treasure diggings during the present survey. Most workings are in
unconsolidated, nonstratified surface material or show no evidence of alteration,
mineralization, or other geologic indication of mineral deposition.
But despite these odds, people continue to search for the Lost Dutchman Gold
Mine and other legendary lost mines and treasures within the Superstition
Mountains.

I wonder if Waltz's bogus map and story will lead to even more stringent laws or follow the leader laws that make mining/prospecting/detecting laws tougher everywhere?

 

[wrmickel1]

What's that have to do with the Federal Wilderness and the fact that the Feds will never allow anyone to mine Federal Wilderness lands?

No to mention in 10 years probably sooner when their environment is ruined and people are dropping like flies, sick, ect it will be the worst run State and dbt ridden doing environmental cleanup.

chlsbrns

GREED

Wrmickel1

 

[carlsonjimbo]

I am unsure of the truth of this, I understand there has been one person/corporation that has been granted a permit to mine in the Area. I will research my info and post it. I believe the guy owns a campground in Apache Junction. Sorry if this is old news or bogus, I'm new to this.

 

[Springfield]

... Perhaps your idea of "abundance" is not what was meant - however Arizona certainly ranks as one of the top gold producing states - since the 19th century around 16 million ounces of the yellow metal have come out of Arizona, and that does not count the production while it was possessed by Mexico or Spain. I would call that gold in abundance, certainly far better for a prospector than many other states. ...

Yes, Arizona's production 1799 through 1965 (latest usgs nationwide tabulation available http://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/0610/report.pdf) was substantial, and accounted for about 5% of the nation's cumulative total for the period, trailing MT, UT, NV, AK, SD, CO and CA. Since then, the production has shifted dramatically to NV and AK. Nevada now produces about 80% of the nation's gold - about 6,000,000 oz/yr. They're working on 200 million ounces of reserves. I would call the AZ production 'abundant', yes, but not 'remarkable'.

Those 19th century published enticements were known for creative exaggeration. A land sale brochure selling land in the lower Mimbres Valley of NM showed a large paddlewheel boat chugging up the Mimbres River, even though the river is seldom more than 10 feet wide or a foot deep. I guess developers haven't changed much - some of the nastiest scrub land for sale in the slick magazines looks pretty good photo-shopped green with telephoto lenses showing nice mountains nearby .. well, actually 40 miles away.

 

[coazon de oro]

It's my understanding that unless under a moratorium, BLM still takes claim applications for mineral discoveries in land closed to mineral entry, and attach the Solicitors Opinion to it. It is then up to the Secretary of the Interior, or the President to decide what's best for our country.

Look at Resolution Copper, and all the money they are spending trying to mine an area closed to mineral entry. Money talks, they wouldn't be spending so much unless they had their foot in the door.

Homar

 

[Springfield]

It's my understanding that unless under a moratorium, BLM still takes claim applications for mineral discoveries in land closed to mineral entry, and attach the Solicitors Opinion to it. It is then up to the Secretary of the Interior, or the President to decide what's best for our country.

Look at Resolution Copper, and all the money they are spending trying to mine an area closed to mineral entry. Money talks, they wouldn't be spending so much unless they had their foot in the door.

Homar

True, Homar. When it comes to rich people scheming to get richer - multi billions - all bets are off. If you can 'influence' the rule-making legislators and high bureaucrats to your point of view, well the sky's the limit.


The present discussion - I think - has something to do with somebody wanting to mine the 'Lost Dutchman Mine' in the Superstition Wilderness. The short answer is that it ain't a-gonna happen for a played out Mexican glory hole, if it existed. Pursuing such an idea is even more delusional than believing the Waltz legends. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[chlsbrns]

I am unsure of the truth of this, I understand there has been one person/corporation that has been granted a permit to mine in the Area. I will research my info and post it. I believe the guy owns a campground in Apache Junction. Sorry if this is old news or bogus, I'm new to this.

It may be "in the area" but it's not within a Federal wilderness area.

Has anyone actually read the act? It's obvious who hasn't read it... (anyone who claims that there are ways around the act)

 

[Springfield]

It may be "in the area" but it's not within a Federal wilderness area.

Has anyone actually read the act? It's obvious who hasn't read it... (anyone who claims that there are ways around the act)

True - Wilderness Act of 1964, Sec. 4 (d)(3) in particular - I won't bother to post it again.

Section 4 (d)(2) does allow 'prospecting', but I believe we'd all agree this exclusion has to do with potential large scale future strategic discoveries that need to be initiated by the Secretary of the Interior and would require an Act of Congress to pursue. Obviously, something like this would likely take years of debate and political intrigue.

Sure, a jackass prospector can probably get away with taking pan samples and breaking a rock here and there inside the Superstition Wilderness ... but to what end?

 

[chlsbrns]

True - Wilderness Act of 1964, Sec. 4 (d)(3) in particular - I won't bother to post it again.

Section 4 (d)(2) does allow 'prospecting', but I believe we'd all agree this exclusion has to do with potential large scale future strategic discoveries that need to be initiated by the Secretary of the Interior and would require an Act of Congress to pursue. Obviously, something like this would likely take years of debate and political intrigue.

Sure, a jackass prospector can probably get away with taking pan samples and breaking a rock here and there inside the Superstition Wilderness ... but to what end?

Prospecting and mining are two different things. Prospecting is basically: Searching For & Mining is: extracting the minerals.

They allow prospecting to "GATHER INFORMATION ON MINERALS" They do not allow extraction.

.......................................................................
Tonto National Forest - Special Places

PROSPECTING

Prospecting is the gathering of information on mineral resources. Prospecting is allowed within a designated Wilderness Area, but an approved Plan of Operations is required. No person can acquire any right of interest to mineral resources discovered by prospecting or other information-gathering activity. Extraction of minerals (except a small grab sample) is a type of mining, and must comply with all related laws and regulations; see "Mining" below. If the search is for precious worked metal or other treasure, see "Treasure Trove Hunting" below.


GOLD PANNING

This category includes panning, sluicing, or dredging wet or dry material. If any mineral is extracted by this activity (for recreation and/or profit), it is a type of mining; see "Mining" above. If mineral is not extracted, this activity would be a type of prospecting; see "Prospecting" above.

MINING

Mining is any activity that attempts to extract minerals (which are valuable and locatable) from their natural setting. No mining of any type (whether for recreation and/or profit) is allowed except with an approved Notice of Intent and/or Plan of Operations for activity on a legal claim with valid existing rights. New mining claims can no longer be filed on designated Wilderness Areas. The Wilderness Act of 1964 allowed mining claims to be filed until January 1, 1984, at which time all Wilderness Areas were closed to new mineral entry. Subsequently- designated Wilderness Areas were closed to mineral entry upon enactment of the law creating them

.......................................................................

Wilderness.net - 1964 Wilderness Act

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES


(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources,

STATE AND PRIVATE LANDS WITHIN WILDERNESS AREAS


Sec. 5. (a) In any case where State-owned or privately owned land is completely surrounded by national forest lands within areas designated by this Act as wilderness, such State or private owner shall be given such rights as may be necessary to assure adequate access to such State-owned or privately owned land by such State or private owner and their successors in interest, or the State-owned land or privately owned land shall be exchanged for federally owned land in the same State of approximately equal value under authorities available to the Secretary of Agriculture: Provided, however, That the United States shall not transfer to a state or private owner any mineral interests unless the State or private owner relinquishes or causes to be relinquished to the United States the mineral interest in the surrounded land.

(b) In any case where valid mining claims or other valid occupancies are wholly within a designated national forest wilderness area, the Secretary of Agriculture shall, by reasonable regulations consistent with the preservation of the area as wilderness, permit ingress and egress to such surrounded areas by means which have been or are being customarily enjoyed with respect to other such areas similarly situated.

.......................................................................

 

[sgtfda]

Those that emptied the Pitt got away with a little more than that

 

[chlsbrns]

Those that emptied the Pitt got away with a little more than that

You claim to be or have been in law enforcement. People get away with murder, rape, theft, robbery and a whole lot of other things. I would think that you would be on the side of the law and not implying that it's ok because someone else got away with it.

I don't know what Pitt you are talking about or what was done there but if it was done with a claim that was up to date and maintained (meaning it was a legal claim that was filed prior to the Wilderness Act) it was legal. If not it was Illegal.

There is a whole lot of gold out there that is not in wilderness areas that can be claimed and worked. Why not look for that gold? It may not be "LOST" it is UN-DISCOVERED. Many of the old abandoned mines still have lots of gold in tailings and in the ground. Why not spend your time prospecting (searching for it) and then claiming and mining (extracting it)

Put this into google earth: 44.400000° -103.700000° Go back in time and you will see that someone found it after 2006. It's a tailing pile. Someone found it, found that it contained gold and is getting the gold.

 

[Springfield]

... There is a whole lot of gold out there that is not in wilderness areas that can be claimed and worked. Why not look for that gold? It may not be "LOST" it is UN-DISCOVERED. Many of the old abandoned mines still have lots of gold in tailings and in the ground. Why not spend your time prospecting (searching for it) and then claiming and mining (extracting it)...

Yes and no. The locations of the old abandoned mines and dumps have been known for decades and have been looked at closely many times by many experienced people. If the properties had enough value in them to make a profit, they would have, and still could in many cases, be exploited. The trouble is, these properties just wouldn't (won't) pay.

Also, there are still a number of old mines that are being maintained in a 'ready mode' and could be put back into production if and when the economics are right. Also, a number of undeveloped but mineralized claims are still being held for the same reason. The 'economics' includes not only the price of metal, but the cost of recovering it, not to mention other costs like legal fees, insurance, government red tape, availability of labor, etc.

That said, I am still of the belief that there must exist many rich outcroppings in many mining districts that have gone undetected for one reason or another. A prospector would need to be extremely fortunate, but if he located a stringer that carried a couple hundred ounces of free-milling gold that could be worked out in a month or two of labor, he'd make himself a nice pot of money. Selective study of some of the lesser known local legends from known producing areas would narrow the search areas considerably. I think a guy's odds are very slim for this at best, but much better than chasing over-hyped phantom mines like the LDM. I see the 'LDM' chase as unrealistic, but a handy adventure for folks in the Phoenix area. Just my opinion.

 

[chlsbrns]

That said, I am still of the belief that there must exist many rich outcroppings in many mining districts that have gone undetected for one reason or another.

A prospector would need to be extremely fortunate, but if he located a stringer that carried a couple hundred ounces of free-milling gold that could be worked out in a month or two of labor, he'd make himself a nice pot of money.

Your belief that there are still many rich outcroppings is a fact. I've offered to give such locations in the LDM threads numerous times. No takers! They must only be interested in lost gold that they can't mine and not be interested in undiscovered gold that they can mine.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Gold and silver are always a gamble. Big operations need big returns. On the other hand, if you sell at the right time it's a wonderful game. In my case, I held my gold until just about a year ago. It was over $1700 an ounce when I sold it. Right now it's setting at $1224. Glad to be out of the gold market, as I don't trust it.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

Gold and silver are always a gamble. Big operations need big returns. On the other hand, if you sell at the right time it's a wonderful game. In my case, I held my gold until just about a year ago. It was over $1700 an ounce when I sold it. Right now it's setting at $1224. Glad to be out of the gold market, as I don't trust it.

Good luck,

Joe

Yes the whole game is rigged - notice what India's gman did to try to suppress the value of gold. It's worked so far. Take a look at who has been buying the past year or so - it's all about trying to be well-positioned when the funny money fails. Me, I'll hold - 5,000 years of history may trump the current batch of sharks. Hopefully in my lifetime.

 

[Springfield]

Your belief that there are still many rich outcroppings is a fact. I've offered to give such locations in the LDM threads numerous times. No takers! They must only be interested in lost gold that they can't mine and not be interested in undiscovered gold that they can mine.

As I recall, those USGS records were public records. You can believe they've all been looked at by experienced hands. Very few people who follow this TNet category are experienced miners. Some are though, and some of these seem to be the most skeptical.