Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[sgtfda]

You're certainly correct about old loners such as Waltz who live nearly invisible lives despite hiding their wealth from public knowledge. I met a guy like that myself once - someone my grandpa worked with summers at a South Lake Tahoe resort in the '60's. I met him when I was lucky enough to land a summer job there. He cut the grass, hauled trash, slept in the bunkhouse, kept to himself. Thing was, he was a millionaire - bought Xerox stock for pennies when it was first offered and rode it to the top. Wore dirty old work clothes.

Your speculative Waltz scenario seems reasonable considering what little we know, but since we're speculating, here's another possible scenario. Waltz was a tramp miner for many years in the west, filing claims of his own, working in others' mines - whatever. Thousands of guys did it. Let's say he high-graded a nice stash of gold ore from one of the places he worked - the Vulture, for example. A serious crime if caught, but it's a tradition and many got away with it (happened all the time in the mine I worked in in '74). By the time he was in his 50's and broken down, he move to Phoenix, bought a piece of dirt and started raising chickens. The ill-gotten ore was under the bed.

He liked to roam the hills playing prospector when the weather was right - reminiscing about his younger years. He enjoyed being recognized as the 'old prospector'. He mostly sat on the ore because he was afraid of being accused of stealing it if and when he sold any. When making a small sale, he intimated that it came from the nearby hills. It bolstered his ego and standing in the community - not a bad thing for an old loner. Of course, he filed no mining claim since there was no mine, but rumors of rich Mexican mines in the area propped up his cover story for the source of the ore. He kept things secretive.

When the end was near, people became more interested in the source of the gold, but Waltz's pride was too great to admit that he stole the ore years earlier and that there was no mine. So he pointed at the roughest terrain he was familiar with and described a phantom mine that nobody would ever find - maybe that would get them off his back. When he realized that the rat Holmes was going to steal his stash on his last day, he told Holmes a real doozey of a story to send him on a very long snipe hunt.

End of Waltz's life - a likable but guilty man who tried to salvage his reputation by concocting a plausible story to try to iron out his past indiscretions. The greedy hoard that followed his demise looking for the phantom mine went wild and created a legend that will live forever.

One problem. How could Waltz tell the Holmes story when he dying. So ill Julia ran for the Dr.
Cover stories are common after a crime and a good point.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Who owned the deed, officially, after Waltz's death?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

A few hopefully short comments...

Wayne (somehiker), you stated:

he simply made this agreement with his friend and neighbor Starrar, with payment being from what everyone, including Starrar, already knew he had

I read it as Andrew having paid Waltz $50 - am I reading it wrong?

There has never been any records produced to indicate that Waltz had been compelled to leave his home before the flood, correct?

Not that I know of no

As I read it, the agreement/contract states that he is turning over ownership of the farm to Andrew Starar, and that Andrew agrees to take care of Waltz's necessities for as long as Andrew should live

I don't interpret anything to suggest that this would continue for as long as Andrew should live

Didn't Waltz kill a Mexican who was at his home ?

There was a Mexican by the name of Ortega who was murdered outside the home of Waltz in 1884 under mysterious and questionable circumstances. Waltz was never charged with the act.

Hal Croves stated:

Not 100% sure but there is some intrigue regarding the Starars. Something about a robbery, stollen money and hiding the take in walls. I will have to look back at my notes.

I haven't heard that story, but if you run across it that would be very interesting reading if you could share it - thanks

One last thing about signatures. When analyzing them don't look so much at the different examples as a whole. Look at each letter and the way it was constructed... How it was formed. While one persons signature will vary from example to example the structure of their writing seldom changes.
Keep telling your story!

The signatures were made by the same hand. Just my opinion but an expert might come to the same conclusion. Too many similarities in the way the letters were made .

Hal, despite neither of us being handwriting experts, seems like we both look for the exact same things. I like to look at specific letters with loops, how a t is crossed or any specific unique characteristic. I agree that it doesn't look like both of those Jacob Waltz signatures are the same.

Here's an interesting question I thought of after going through a number of the Maricopa deed records randomly last night. Are they all the original handwritten documents, or were they transcribed at some point? Reason I ask is that in more than a few cases, all of the signatures as well as the letters in the body of the document appear to be written by the same person. Am I just imagining things, or has anyone else noticed this?

The Starars should be looked at very carefully

I agree that their history is definitely interesting. Thomas Glover and Robert Blair cover some of their history in their books that I mentioned earlier. I don't have the documents to back up some of the conclusions, so I haven't pushed down that route much yet, but my gut does tell me there's something interesting in all this.

chlsbrns, you stated:

There is a lot of info on the Starar brothers out there. They were filthy rich so there was no need to sell Waltz's land to generate enough cash for Waltz and Starar to live on.

They were indeed very well to do.... up to a point in time. Starting in 1874 they began selling off property and continued doing so up until shortly before the time Jacob Starar died. As Hal Croves mentioned, fortunes were made and lost in those days fairly quickly and possibly more often than one would think.

As far as starar & waltz being one in the same... Did you look? Did you even try to figure it out? Did you look up starars place e of birth? Did you do anything or just call it my theory?

I love the fact that people think and look outside of the box for information and to come up with theories. 100+ years of everyone looking through the same old information just tends to lead to the same conclusions. That said, the way it works when you come up with a theory to prove OR DISPROVE something which is what you state you like to do, is that the burden of proof lies with the person who comes up with the theory. Yes, if you have a theory that you claim proves or disproves something, you do indeed need to serve it up on a silver platter - that's exactly the way it works. If you don't want to do that, there's nothing wrong at all with that as it's your choice, however then don't get upset when people put little or no stock in your theories.

Keep telling your story as Hal suggested - I think there may be some interesting things that come out of it, but I'm not going to accept what you say just because you say it and point people to "do their own research" just like I don't expect you to take what I have to say as the gospel.

As to the Starar's place of birth, I have not looked it up. All I've heard is that they came from Prussia in 1828. There have been stories that the Starar's were related to Jacob Waltz (perhaps cousins?) but I haven't seen any documented proof.

Joe, Cactusjumper you stated:

Who owned the deed, officially, after Waltz's death?

I don't know the answer to that.

Springfield:

I think your theory has plenty of merit - it answers some questions and is a perfectly reasonable storyline in my opinion to what may have happened.

 

[Somero]

Just a little digging shows Andrew Starar quitclaiming a mining claim in Pinal County to Jacob Starar on 6/6/1883 with Jacob Waltz as one of the signing witnesses.

Maricopa County Recorder

Jacob Starar selling pieces of township 1 range 3 section 16 starting around 1882

Maricopa County Recorder



The links are separate, but makes for good reading if you can stand that much lawyerise.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Springfield, alternatively he was an active explorer in the supers, and did find the mine as he said, did kill a few people, but refused to say exactly where it was since the murders might be verified, so he kept up the pretense of being a screwy ole prospector such as Joe or Oro.

Don Jose de La Mancha
,
p.s liked your post my friend, just being ornery.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I'm not sure that Waltz's Homestead claim was ever legal. It was "School Land". That might answer a lot of questions.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

I'm not sure that Waltz's Homestead claim was ever legal. It was "School Land". That might answer a lot of questions.

Good luck,Joe

Joe - that in itself opens up a whole 'nuther can of worms so to speak. I remember a few years ago Thomas Glover gave a talk at the Rendezvous about the whole issue of "school land" and Waltz's homestead. I wasn't terribly interested in it at the time, and from what I recall there were plenty of "legaleez" type words in it which is probably why.

I forgot on my trip last fall to get a copy from Greg of that audio tape which I'm sure he recorded. I know he talks about the issue in his book, and I think the topic came up on several forums over the years as well as perhaps in SMHS journals - it's just not something I have any experience or skill in understanding at all right now.

If someone wants to tackle that whole mess, it may be worth it - it ties in to this thread, but probably deserves it's own space as if I recall correctly it's a confusing issue and people tend to have different interpretations of it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I think I have a book on the subject. I will need to do a little digging.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Another quick thing regarding the "Recorder's Office" and the handwriting issues. I had a colleague contact me by e-mail with the following information:

... the signatures that people are trying to compare from the early Maricopa County records are usually meaningless. What typically happened was that somebody would bring in an original document (deed or mortgage or whatever) to be recorded, and it was these original documents where people's actual signatures appeared. The recorder simply transcribed the original documents into his own records, and in his own handwriting - including whatever signatures appeared on the original documents. The original documents were then returned to their owners, but just in case anything ever happened to them (for example, loss by fire or flood), there would always be a legally recorded copy as a backup. Therefore, what people are trying to compare are the various recorder's and clerk's handwriting samples - and obviously there were different clerks recording different documents at different times.

There were exceptions to this - every once in a while a recorder would simply have a person sign their name to a record he transcribed, and so in some cases we are lucky enough to get an actual sample of a person's true signature. But it takes a good eye (and some familiarity with the different records) to catch these examples.

This explains what I noticed last night in looking at random deeds where it appeared as though many of the signatures as well as body of the document all seemed to be written in the same hand.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

"place your mark here"...

literacy was an uncommon art prior to the public school system

 

[roadrunner]

Starr paid the $50 dollars to Waltz. That's the way it is worded.

I used to work at a car lot and would have my customers sign multiple power of attorney so If I had to I could change any necessary paper work, even if they could not come in and sign the papers right away.
Some times the people gave me permission to sign there name for them.
Since I also had a notary stamp in the office, it was all legal after I put the seal on it.
At least I was never questioned on the legality of the signatures.
As usually no one in an office is.

 

[Springfield]

"place your mark here"...

literacy was an uncommon art prior to the public school system

Seems like it's getting that way with public schools nowadays. Sure can text though.

 

[somehiker]

Paul:

"he simply made this agreement with his friend and neighbor Starrar, with payment being from what everyone, including Starrar, already knew he had "
"I read it as Andrew having paid Waltz $50 - am I reading it wrong?"

Nope. You're right ! I got the two parties backwards on that "part"....even though I thought it strange.
That the $50 cash was included, may have been a "to sweeten the pot" dealmaker made by Starar, might be a clue as to who initiated the transaction.

"There is a lot of info on the Starar brothers out there. They were filthy rich so there was no need to sell Waltz's land to generate enough cash for Waltz and Starar to live on."
"They were indeed very well to do.... up to a point in time. Starting in 1874 they began selling off property and continued doing so up until shortly before the time Jacob Starar died. As Hal Croves mentioned, fortunes were made and lost in those days fairly quickly and possibly more often than one would think."

The "filthy rich" often grow wealth by accumulating real estate at less than fair market value.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul:

"he simply made this agreement with his friend and neighbor Starrar, with payment being from what everyone, including Starrar, already knew he had "
"I read it as Andrew having paid Waltz $50 - am I reading it wrong?"

Nope. You're right ! I got the two parties backwards on that "part"....even though I thought it strange.
That the $50 cash was included, may have been a "to sweeten the pot" dealmaker made by Starar, might be a clue as to who initiated the transaction.

"There is a lot of info on the Starar brothers out there. They were filthy rich so there was no need to sell Waltz's land to generate enough cash for Waltz and Starar to live on."
"They were indeed very well to do.... up to a point in time. Starting in 1874 they began selling off property and continued doing so up until shortly before the time Jacob Starar died. As Hal Croves mentioned, fortunes were made and lost in those days fairly quickly and possibly more often than one would think."

The "filthy rich" often grow wealth by accumulating real estate at less than fair market value.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne, don't know if you've read it or not, but Dr. Glover's theory as to how the Starar brothers went from "well to do" to in pretty rough shape financially was due ironically enough to mining. He surmises that at some point they decided to try their hand at mining. They had at least one mine (possibly more as I haven't looked that closely), and they may have chased their dream of becoming even more wealthy right into the poorhouse by tossing good money after bad trying to strike it rich. As you said, they may have purchased land and real estate at below market value prices, then sold it off a little at a time sinking their money quite literally into the ground, and eventually ended up without a rich strike and now without any real estate. I haven't looked into it closely enough, but I trust that Dr. Glover has and that was his feeling.

 

[somehiker]

Paul:

No, I haven't, but by your reference it sounds well reasoned, IMHO.

Yes, it was the Ortega shooting I was thinking of.
Wonder if it was about the mine, or the ore ?
If it had been an attempted robbery of Waltz for his stash of ore, Waltz may have not reported it as the reason.
Even though doing so may have closed the case immediately.
Perhaps he reasoned that "questionable circumstances" were better than having others, including the law, know about his ore.
And if it was about the mine ?
Has anyone ever looked into any possible connection between Ortega and those Mexican families who did mine the area ?

Springfield:

There is plenty of both documented and anecdotal evidence from which to build a few scenarios.
As the documented evidence grows with time, for most of us (including future authors) via the growing collection of what has become available on the net, I'm sure Waltz's history will become more of an open book. In other words, less circumstantial than what we have to go on so far.

With this in mind, do you or anyone else know when the claims that Waltz highgraded the ore were first made ?
And by whom ?

 

[chlsbrns]

Glovers "theory" is wrong. The starar brothers were into mining before they went to arizona.

 

[Cubfan64]

Glovers "theory" is wrong. The starar brothers were into mining before they went to arizona.

I didn't mention anything whatsoever about what the Starar brothers did or did not do before they came to Phoenix. I'm well aware (as is Dr. Glover) that they were involved in at least some mining prior to their arrival in Phoenix. I know about their time in the Eel River area of CA as well as some of their other movements, but didn't bring any of that up because it has no bearing on Dr. Glover's theory.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my comment above, so let me be clear now. I was referring to their time in Phoenix and how they went from being "well to do" to fairly poor. They were clearly involved in farming, purchasing real estate and business in their early years in Phoenix - it wasn't until later that they began selling property off at a pretty good rate.

Where did all their money go? Dr. Glover's theory is just that - a theory. Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong, but it has absolutely nothing to do with anything they did before they got to Phoenix.

I don't understand why you seem to be looking for a fight with every one of your posts here, but it's getting very tiresome.

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul:

Yes, it was the Ortega shooting I was thinking of.
Wonder if it was about the mine, or the ore ?
If it had been an attempted robbery of Waltz for his stash of ore, Waltz may have not reported it as the reason.
Even though doing so may have closed the case immediately.
Perhaps he reasoned that "questionable circumstances" were better than having others, including the law, know about his ore.
And if it was about the mine ? Has anyone ever looked into any possible connection between Ortega and those Mexican families who did mine the area ?

I don't know if anyone has ever looked into connections between Ortega, Peraltas, Grijalva, etc... I'll tell you that from reading the newspaper reports of the incident outside Waltz's house, it's certainly "fishy" at best. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Waltz was involved in some manner, and simply implicated the other Mexican who then ran off scared because he knew it would be his word vs. Waltz's. Who knows I guess.

 

[chlsbrns]

Dr. Glover's theory as to how the Starar brothers went from "well to do" to in pretty rough shape financially was due ironically enough to mining. He surmises that at some point they decided to try their hand at mining.

First... Where does it say that the Starar brothers went from well to do to pretty rough shape? One of the "brothers" died long before the other so the "brothers" could not both go from well to do to pretty rough shape.

"He surmises that at some point they decided to try their hand at mining"
This does not imply that mining was something new to them or at least to Jacob being that Andrew was dead? So when I said: "Glovers "theory" is wrong. The starar brothers were into mining before they went to Arizona" I was informing that they had already tried their hand at mining. This was done before they arrived in Arizona and during their stay in Arizona and after Andrew died.

I didn't mention anything whatsoever about what the Starar brothers did or did not do before they came to Phoenix. I'm well aware (as is Dr. Glover) that they were involved in at least some mining prior to their arrival in Phoenix.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my comment above, so let me be clear now. I was referring to their time in Phoenix and how they went from being "well to do" to fairly poor. They were clearly involved in farming, purchasing real estate and business in their early years in Phoenix - it wasn't until later that they began selling property off at a pretty good rate.

Where did all their money go? Dr. Glover's theory is just that - a theory. Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong, but it has absolutely nothing to do with anything they did before they got to Phoenix.

I don't understand why you seem to be looking for a fight with every one of your posts here, but it's getting very tiresome.

They went to Fotuna California. Maybe that's why they were selling the Arizona properties? A hotel was built in Fortuna in their honor. The had a ranch in Fortuna. Where does it say they went to "fairly poor? And again "THEY" implies both brothers. Can a dead guy be "fairly poor?"

FYI: http://sunnyfortuna.com/history/fortuna/

"Henry Rohner's home was located on the lot next to the present-day Veteran's Memorial building on Main Street, currently occupied by a restaurant. He bought 350 acres of land from the Starar brothers and donated to Fortuna the land for its first city park, but during the late 1800's flooding destroyed the land. The deed of the parkland was signed by Abraham Lincoln, and a replica may be seen in the Park's Depot Museum. In the early 1900's Mary Rohner, Henry's widow, sold the town a total of 53 acres of the family's land in three installments. This is now the location of the present-day Rohner Park. Rohner's daughter, Elizabeth Barcus Rohner, sold the third section of land to the City for one dollar with the stipulation that the park's name never be changed."

"The Starar Brothers

Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine, and it looks like Andrew may even have owned most of the town at one time and sold part of it to Henry Rohner. Historic documents refer to them variously as the Star, Starr, Starar and Starrar brothers from Arizona."

Did Andrew die when his name stopped appearing in recorded documents or did he just move to Fortuna and everyone assumed that he died?

Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine ...sure implies that both brothers left Arizona for Fortuna

That sure makes me think Glovers "theory" was totally incorrect or a total fabrication.

 

[Springfield]

...Springfield:

There is plenty of both documented and anecdotal evidence from which to build a few scenarios.
As the documented evidence grows with time, for most of us (including future authors) via the growing collection of what has become available on the net, I'm sure Waltz's history will become more of an open book. In other words, less circumstantial than what we have to go on so far.

With this in mind, do you or anyone else know when the claims that Waltz highgraded the ore were first made ? And by whom ?

The public documents form a framework from which we can trace certain activities in the man's life, but the documentation that would help substantiate the rumors - shipping receipts for ore, records for purchases paid with gold, etc. are non-existent so far. We have hearsay, but no smoking gun that confirms Waltz had gold/gold ore. I suspect he did, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it unless I was certain.

I would like to see family diaries, old-timer memoirs, pioneer interviews, etc. that confirm aspects of Waltz's character, witness accounts of his prospecting activities and partners, descriptions of the stories he told, etc. Most of the hearsay follows a pattern such as, "It was reported that ...', "He was seen ...", "He claimed ...", "It was know that ...", etc. with sources for the statements lacking/anonymous. Unsubstantiated rumors build an image, but I personally can't give much credence to information beyond the second degree of separation. In general, the Waltz story is just that - a story. Maybe the fleshing out you anticipate will come, but it seems like a cold trail.

A good comparison that might help is the treasure legend centering around Thomas L. Smith - the 'Lost Pegleg Mine'. Pegleg was a controversial figure to be sure and certainly contributed to questions about his integrity by his own behavior (drunkenness, thievery, inconsistencies, etc.). Public records reveal the types of things that show up in the Waltz history So, we have a rough framework for Smith's life too, possibly a bit more definitive. However, with Smith we also have many written accounts of his exploits by those who participated in them with him - trappers, guides, freighters, mountain men, etc., and first hand interviews with some who accompanied him in efforts to relocate his mine. We know locations, dates, activities and lists of witnesses. These things help build confidence in the 'Lost Pegleg' gold. The Pegleg story is not just hype - it's a real mystery.

I don't know the source of the Waltz high-grading allegations, but it was common practice and a logical explanation. Pure speculation, really - like most of the lore. That said, I have my own ideas about Waltz - maybe I oughtta write a book and cash in on the gravy train too.