Searching for a stone house?? Message from Dr. Thomas Glover...

Cubfan64

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I was asked to post this message from Thomas Glover in regards to a photo of a stone house that appears on p. 18 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream"

Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:39:34 -0700

From: Thomas Glover (e-mail address removed by me for privacy sake)
To: Greg Davis (e-mail address removed by me for privacy sake)

Subject: Rock House

Greg,

After our recent conversation and one with Jack I wanted to clear up something. I do not want anyone getting injured looking for the rock house on page 18 in my book. I understand that there are people hiking all over Coffee Flat looking for it. Why they are looking on Coffee Flat I don’t know. There is nothing in the book that puts the house on Coffee Flat, or anywhere else.

The history of that photo is as follows. When I was putting the book together I asked Tom Burnett for a photo, preferably one in his Marine uniform. Tom said he didn’t have one, which I doubt. My guess is it was packed away somewhere and getting to it was way too much hassle. Tom has since told me that he had no idea I was trying to write a serious book on the legend. Plus, he was in the middle of a life changing event(s) and that likely added to his reluctance to work on finding the photo.

I turned to Len and he said yes he had a photo of Tom panning for gold. Great! He also had a photo of a rock house under cliff Tom had found in his travels. Great!! Len never said where it was and I was not that excited about it, except as part of the Tom and Len part of the story. The condition of the house is what failed and fails to excite me. To me it appears to be a modern structure…the condition of the wood, the rocks seem to cemented in some fashion and to me it appears just in too pristine a condition to be all that old.

I do not know where it is. Tom and Len hunted many places before I meant them. I cannot even say it is in the Wilderness. Tom lived in Big Bear and there are lots of lost mine stories in the San Bernardino Mts. and the surrounding desert. I just don’t know, at the time it was not important to me.

Now, there is something on Coffee Flat that is of interest. Something which I mentioned in the book. The story is told there. Before our trip into the mountains Tom had come to the conclusion that the Two Soldiers ended up on Coffee Flat. I never understood his logic on this point, but I was the new guy and more or less along for the ride on that first trip. Anyway Len came over to Tom’s and they poured over maps and aerial photographs. Then at one in the morning the phone rings and Len is on the other end saying, “We found it. We found it.” And yes there new location was on Coffee Flat.

So when we went in we camped on Coffee Flat and hiked to the location of what they though was a covered mine. It turned out to be simply some exposed bedrock that happened to be round in shape. A lot of hiking and now disappointment, especially for Tom and Len. We all headed back Len and his stepson, Scott, headed back the way we had come. Tom decided he would take what he thought would be “a short cut”….he was wrong. I decided to take a middle route. I got cliffed at the head of good sized waterfall and turned back to follow Len and Scott.

Tom continued on and found himself in a heavily brushed, nasty little canyon. There he spotted the skull of a javalina. It was pristine, Tom wanted it. But he found there was no lower jaw. He got down and started feeling around for the lower jaw. He found it and it too was in great shape. But, in his searching for the lower jaw he also found am 1858 half-dollar.

Now from Tom’s description of the little canyon he was in it was not a place where cowboys would or likely could ride. Nor was the canyon one well traveled. It was apparently not one that really lead anyplace. So how did that coin get there? In 1858 that 50 cents had the buying power of over 14 dollars today. Not something to be ignored. My guess is a coin was probably around for say 20, 30 or 40 years. If this is so that 1858 half-dollar was likely lost before 1900 at the latest. More likely I would guess before 1890?

So who lost it? Why were they in such a nasty place? Prospector? Indian cache nearby? Bandit hideout? Somebody was in that canyon very early and it would seem that whom ever it was likely had a near compelling reason to be there. If someone wants to hike Coffee Flat and is looking for something interesting that may tie into Waltz and his time I would focus on this. If anyone is interested Greg let me know and I will try to get an idea of the general locality.

But, I really do not want anyone getting into a bad situation over a rock house. Especially one I cannot vouch for except it was found somewhere by Tom Burnett sometime. As I say it came from Len and don’t know even if Len knows much about it.

Thomas
 

roadrunner

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So 4 men,take different paths back,splitting up is the first mistake.
But the guy that finds the coin has no idea where he is at,or how to get back there. Where he found the coin, and of course, all 4 of them cant find the place either.
Does anyone know of an about position from Coffee Flat.
Soldiers would have 50 cent or half dollar pieces on them.
 

markmar

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I believe how the Two Soldiers could passed from Coffee Flat in their way between Superstitions and Silver King mine , where they worked . I made a map with today's known trails which could followed the soldiers .

Maybe the soldiers trail.jpg
 

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roadrunner

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Thanks Marius. I will pate it over a topo and see what it looks like.
 

sailaway

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Geronimo personally said in his autobiography that he fought and killed all the Mexicans in 1858 in what he called the battle of white hill. The indians recovered the mules 5 miles west of where the battle took place.
 

cactusjumper

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I believe how the Two Soldiers could passed from Coffee Flat in their way between Superstitions and Silver King mine , where they worked . I made a map with today's known trails which could followed the soldiers . View attachment 923716

Marius,

Why would they choose that route instead of the much easier, well traveled road around the range?

Take care,

Joe
 

markmar

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Joe

I believe , on the well and open traveled road , was very difficult to protect their selves from robbers or Indians ambush . They were only two men and have had gold and money with them .
 

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AbTexEx

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Marius,

Why would they choose that route instead of the much easier, well traveled road around the range?

Take care,

Joe

Hate to interrupt the train of thought here.

This same issue was brought up some time back on another post.

Had to go way back for that one.

Interesting how two people can have the same question on two different details.
Even more interesting when the two details intersect each other way out in the middle of nowhere.

Very interesting indeed.

AJones
 

Some Dude

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Hi Guys,

Hope this is not too far off-topic, but I couldn't see starting a new thread just for this question ->

Any news about a publication date for the new book that Dr. Glover was working on? He spoke about it at the rendezvous a few years back and referenced Sim Ely's work.

Thanks,
Dude
 

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Cubfan64

Cubfan64

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I haven't heard any updates as to when the books will come out and haven't spoken to Dr. Glover in quite some time. Sorry - maybe someone else has more recent information.
 

wrmickel1

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Joe

I believe , on the well and open traveled road , was very difficult to protect their selves from robbers or Indians ambush . They were only two men and have had gold and money with them .

Markmar

Exactly the opposite in those days you can't see your target can't fight it, lure them out an level ground and a good rifle takes care of them, It was a much personal fighting in those days then it is now. A good rifle 3 to 4 hundred yards, a bow and arrow, you get the picture.


Wrmickel1
 

roadrunner

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How do I get in touch with Thomas for an about location.
 

markmar

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Markmar

Exactly the opposite in those days you can't see your target can't fight it, lure them out an level ground and a good rifle takes care of them, It was a much personal fighting in those days then it is now. A good rifle 3 to 4 hundred yards, a bow and arrow, you get the picture.


Wrmickel1

Wrmickel1

I believe your strategy don't works if you don't know the region and the hideouts . The Indians and the other robbers had rifles too and played at their " home " . The soldiers were killed in a well and open traveled road , just east from U Ranch on the Milk Ranch trail .
 

wrmickel1

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Wrmickel1

I believe your strategy don't works if you don't know the region and the hideouts . The Indians and the other robbers had rifles too and played at their " home " . The soldiers were killed in a well and open traveled road , just east from U Ranch on the Milk Ranch trail .

Markmar

You watch to many westerns the Native Americans were poorly armed, why do you think they lost!
It wasn't the lack of heart or strategy. Custard learned the hard way, stayed in the foot hills at little Big Horn and the Native Americans used the gullies to get up close where there bows were very affective and played the most important factor in the battle,

If they have fought on open ground the out come most likely would have been different.

Wrmickel1 Raw Hide
 

cactusjumper

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Markmar

You watch to many westerns the Native Americans were poorly armed, why do you think they lost!
It wasn't the lack of heart or strategy. Custard learned the hard way, stayed in the foot hills at little Big Horn and the Native Americans used the gullies to get up close where there bows were very affective and played the most important factor in the battle,

If they have fought on open ground the out come most likely would have been different.

Wrmickel1 Raw Hide

WRM,

I believe the above highlighted statement is totally wrong. I would suggest you read "Little Big Horn" by Robert Nightengale, along with many other accounts of the battle which speak to the native weapons at Little Big Horn.

Roy would be an excellent source for that history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper

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I haven't heard any updates as to when the books will come out and haven't spoken to Dr. Glover in quite some time. Sorry - maybe someone else has more recent information.

Paul,

Received an E-mail this morning from Dr. Glover. The publication of his book has been delayed due to his selling his home in Oregon and moving to Arizona. There was some problem with the person doing the cover art. Bottom line is that he hopes to have the first (of two) book out around Christmas. They will be sold, primarily, at Amazon and at SMHS Museum.

Now that Thomas is living in Arizona, he hopes to make it to this years Rendezvous. That will make me a happy camper, as I am pretty sure this will be my last year. Sorry to hear you won't be able to make it, but understand completely.:sad10:

I may try to make our stew for Saturday night. It won't have mom's touch, but it will be pretty close.

Take care of yourself and get better soon.

Joe
 

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Cubfan64

Cubfan64

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Thanks and hopefully 2015 will bring better things :).

Roadrunner - I haven't asked Dr. Glover for permission to share his e-mail, so I'm uncomfortable doing that. Perhaps Joe has permission to do that?

My best suggestion especially since the Rendezvous is only a couple months away is to print out this thread, take it to the Rendezvous with a map of the Superstitions, and have a personal sit down with him if he indeed is able to make the trip. I know you were there last year, so that's probably the easiest way to get your answer.
 

wrmickel1

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WRM,

I believe the above highlighted statement is totally wrong. I would suggest you read "Little Big Horn" by Robert Nightengale, along with many other accounts of the battle which speak to the native weapons at Little Big Horn.

Roy would be an excellent source for that history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

Well I don't know who Mr. Nightengale is. But if everyone died at the battle' where'd he get his information to write a book. I never saw or met him when a large group of metal detector volunteers including me and my brother swept the area. Now I met a Douglas and a Melissa and Richard. Now it became noticeable that the battle was won with far less rifles and pistols then the US Army seemed to have. There were a few arrowheads found to, But they weren't metal and nobody sifted the site threw a screen. So the lack of a large amount of arrowheads seems natural because nobody was looking for them. Follow the metal trail and the truth of the battle comes to life.

Take Care Joe and this must mean I'm off your E-NOR list.

Wrmickel1
 

cactusjumper

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Joe

Well I don't know who Mr. Nightengale is. But if everyone died at the battle' where'd he get his information to write a book. I never saw or met him when a large group of metal detector volunteers including me and my brother swept the area. Now I met a Douglas and a Melissa and Richard. Now it became noticeable that the battle was won with far less rifles and pistols then the US Army seemed to have. There were a few arrowheads found to, But they weren't metal and nobody sifted the site threw a screen. So the lack of a large amount of arrowheads seems natural because nobody was looking for them. Follow the metal trail and the truth of the battle comes to life.

Take Care Joe and this must mean I'm off your E-NOR list.

Wrmickel1

WRM,

Yes, I took you off ignore, but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do. What year did you detect the site? Got any pictures?

Joe Ribaudo
 

Oroblanco

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I plead the 5th concerning the weapons of the LBH, at least for now. Some surprises are in store for anyone interested, I promise that.

Roy
 

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