Bita and Pieces

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TEGlover

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Gentlemen,

I am do not know where the time goes as I am retired, but yet there is a lot on my plate. Thus I rarely read or visit the forums. Time does not really allow and my interest In such things wanes. I have other fish to fry and none of us knows how much time we have. My iPad, however, has altered things a wee bit. In the evening while watching television with Carol we both use iPads to distract/entertain us. Some evenings I tune into a forum and scan though it. Thought I might address a few items that I recall which may be of interest. First the ore analysis/comparison:

Someone noted that the ore comparison was really an ore analysis if I recollect correctly. I called it an ore comparison. I was right and I was wrong. The person who commented was right and they were wrong. It is a matter of semantics and background. My limited understanding is that an ore analysis or assay is an analysis of the ore, i.e., the metals/minerals in the ore and the rock composing the vein. Since we could only test the metals, but not the rock composing the vein, and since we could not identify the minerals only the elements that compose whatever minerals were in the metals I shied away from defining it as analysis. But I should think that technically it was a type of analysis. Our purpose was to get data sufficient to compare our unknowns (the metal(s) in the Jewelry Ore) to the metals in known ores (the Vulture, the Goldfields). The investigation was purposely limited in scope maintaining a test of wrongness. Someone with more knowledge of geology may have structured the testing differently, and perhaps more productively?

Also, if I remember there has been the hoary old chestnut raised about the spelling of Waltz’s name. I really cannot give time to such as we have multiple signatures and official documents dating from the late 1840s to the late 1870s into the 1880s of the correct spelling of his name. If someone wants to take it further a certain skill set is useful: knowing German pronunciation (diphthongs, Swabian, Anglicization of German names), frequency of changes in spelling between Germany and the States, and so forth. I have my own theories and they are to be presented in my two new books.

As there has been some interest in these books let me diverge here. First I had no intention of writing them. And they have proved a genuine time sink. I had hoped to have the first one out last fall, then after Christmas—no such luck. Their status is as follows: The first book “The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz” has not been updated due to technical difficulties. It was done in a software program called Quark Xpress. That program was on my old Mac and that beast is long gone. My new iMac would not run that version of Xpress anyway. Currently I am running a program called InDesign and it is only recently that I have discovered a simple way to convert the Xpress files into InDesign files (turned out, after years of thinking it was complicated, to be a no brainer). So at some point there may be another printing of that work. But possibly not as I want to be done with Dutchman books.

As for the new books, one is titled “Jacob Waltz and the History of the Lost Dutchman Mine,” the other is titled “Treasure Tales of the Superstitions.” I never intended to take on such a task, but a promise made to an old friend, Al Reser, changed things. Once one gives one’s word what else can you do? Then Carol’s and my trip to Germany shed new light on things. Then there was the new information about a number of aspects of the legend that surfaced. Putting it all together took time and to my chagrin I had two rough drafts of 500 plus pages each. Which was a no go. So I had to trim each book down considerably. Which meant re-writes of many chapters – which took time. Just going through the legend, its various main principal forms, its history, its evolution, Waltz’s history, a re-visit of the ore “analysis”, the 1887 earthquake data, let alone the frauds and thefts involved took time.

The current status of “Jacob Waltz and the History of the Lost Dutchman Mine” is it is finished and comb bound. IF the old Cowboy Miner Productions was still here it would now be out. But when Cowboy Miner went south after Janice’s death Carol and I decided to self publish, ala Carlson and Stewart. The facets still needing to be done are registering a company, logo, printer and cover art. I had someone lined up for the cover art, but they essentially evaporated into the ether. The second book “Treasure Tales of the Superstitions” is about the different stories – Two Soldiers. Ruth, Wagoner, Kochera, etc. As at 400 plus pages in the first book there simply was no room for these stories there, especially in any depth. This second book looks at each story in terms of different versions, and their time and place (their history). It has a chapter on clues, a chapter on maps, a chapter on the Stone Maps (their history) and a section on the first 24 hours of Len and I in the mountains BS-ing about the Dutchman and related things. This work is finished in rough draft. It still has to be edited, then the index has to be adjusted – cover art is done.

So what’s taking so long? During all this we have been yo-yoing between Oregon and Arizona. We are remodeling a house in AZ and in the process of selling our house in Oregon. This has proved to be and will remain for some time a very time consuming process, and will remain so until the tasks associated with selling are completed. Any work on the books takes a back seat. So depending on when the house sells — it goes on the market next week — remodeling, inspections, etc. all determines the timeline for the books.

A last note on Sims Ely and his book the “Lost Dutchman Mine.” When I gave the talk at the rendezvous it was info. dump. That is, I felt that the audience, or at least most of them, deserved the information more than to be entertained. There are many ways and objectives in giving a talk, lecture, whatever …. In this case I felt people had a right to the info. Whether they listened, analyzed it, or went off mentally because I wasn’t talking about clues, or whatever was their problem. Now once again, do not use the Ely book for other than what it was originally marketed as: Historic Fiction. Ely had two purposes and those were retained. I say retained because the editor, John Willey, was the real person behind the structure and content of the book. Now some people think editors are “spell checkers” – hornswoggle. Like many professions they run a gamut. The way it works at the most professional levels, the big time – and Willey was a vary famous editor at a New York publishing house – is that once the editor finishes with a work (be it minor changes or major changes, including re-writes) the author is presented with the changes, i.e., the changed work, and they either sign off or they don’t. If they don’t sign off there may be a compromise or not. If not the author takes his work to someone else. Whose name appears on the work, the original author as they have written the original work and they have agreed to the changes i.e., signed off. Ely wanted to pay tribute to Jim Bark and their friendship, which was accomplished; and he wanted to pay tribute to his and Bark’s hunting of the Lost Dutchman Mine, also accomplished. Beyond that Willey was in charge. I have copies of letters between Willey and the Ely family. Willey even determined how the book would start, which is nothing like the Ely manuscript.

A final note, the Bark Manuscript was physically written circa 1930 (the date I have in a letter is 1931). And, more importantly, it was written for publication. As I said at the Rendezvous, Bark sent it to the Elys in the East to use their connections in getting it to publishers. The Elys did that. Any chance of it being accepted would require many changes (to put it politely). Bark refused and the matter died there.

As for Bark and Ely and did they actually know each other very well? Did they actually hunt the mine? Yes and Yes. They were close friends. Reading their letters makes that clear. Northcut Ely even handled some, or most (?), of Bark’s investments. As for hunting the mine their routine – when time allowed – was to be packed in from the ranch for two or three days to follow up on a new clue or piece of information. Apparently their schedules do not seem to have allowed for extend trips.

Now it is out to spend the rest of the day – it is 7:30 AM here, waking up at 3:30 AM has provided some time to indulge here – cleaning the garage, mowing our wild area and cleaning our drive. The realtor comes Friday.

Respectfully,

TE Glover

PS: This morning had a few difficulties trying to post this so now it is late afternoon and it is good to sit and get it posted.
 

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cactusjumper

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Thomas,

I trust you and Carol are both doing well.

It was good to see your post, as I have been thinking of contacting you about your publication date. Let me know what to send you for the book, and I will get it off right away. I, along with many others, have been looking forward to your next books.

Hope you can make it to this years Rendezvous. Carolyn and I have agreed this will be our last one. Ten years.......Who would have thunk:dontknow:

Our best to you both,

Joe & Carolyn
 

Matthew Roberts

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TEGlover,

in your post you wrote: ..... "The way it works at the most professional levels, the big time – and Wiley was a vary famous editor at a New York publishing house – " ........

I was one of the individuals confused concerning your talk at the Rendezvous about the Sims Ely book. It took me 9 months but I finally got someone at Wm. Morrow & Company to talk to me about Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine.

In your Rendezvous talk you indicated John Wiley wrote the Ely book and again today in your post you stated John Wiley wrote the Ely book.

When I talked with Morrow & Co. and saw their documents it was clear their editor John C. Willey did not write the Ely book.

( Wm. Morrow and Co is today controlled under imprint by Harper Collins of New York City a subsidiary of News Corp. )

I think we are talking about two separate people. John C. Willey edited Ely's book for Morrow & Co.
John Wiley was an editor and publisher of John Wiley and Sons Publishing Company of Manhatten, NY and Hoboken, New Jersey. Two separate people.

The John Willey who edited Elys book never worked for anyone but Morrow & Co. he began as assistant to Wm. Morrow in 1946. He wasn't even a staff editor in 1953 when Ely's book was published, he was the treasurer of Morrow & Co. from 1952 - 1957. He became the editor in chief in 1957 and retired from Morrow in 1980. He died in Vancouver Washington in 1989.

I believe we have two different people here. Are you saying John Wiley of Wiley and Sons wrote Ely's book ? That would make sense. Because the John C. Willey who worked at Morrow never wrote the Ely book, that would be news to Morrow & Co.

Respectfully,

Matthew Roberts
 

393stroker

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TE Glover, I am looking forward to reading your books. I will add them to my collection of two on the shelf so far. I find the possibility of lost mines and hidden treasures in the Superstitions fascinating. Plus, it gives me a good excuse to get out there and get some hiking in.
 

Oroblanco

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Ditto to the words of 393stroker, and thank you Thomas for the interesting post and update.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

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TEGlover

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Matthew,

Thank for your reply. As we know research queries, challenges and different ideas are the stuff that move things forward. The stuff of progress. You sent me back to review in detail my Ely file. The first part of the Ely papers I received came from Northcutt years ago and I had not really gone into them in quite awhile. When I received the papers I copied the contents, went through the papers and returned the originals to the family. While I initially read through it; but did not peruse the parts of it that seemed irrelevant, such as responses from readers asking for directions to the mine and such. Back then I simply did not have the time. Opps. So it was back to some of the mundane stuff and there, buried it was.

There in that bunch of mundane things, such as letters from readers wanting more information and royalty balance sheets after royalty balance sheets was something I had missed. Something I did not know was there, and something I had wished was, the contractual letter between William Morrow & Co. and Sims Ely. I found it only by going through that packed “mundane” file. This is how we make progress, professionally challenging and responding civilly, professionally. For if it had not been for a substantive response from you this letter would have set buried in my files.

My trusty HP scanner is not co-operating these days. I made the mistake of updating the software. Another opps. So I am going to include verbatim the relevant parts of the letter.

Written on William Morrow & Co. Inc. stationary:

“Mr. Sims Ely
1209 Tower Bldg.
Washington 5, D. C.

Dear Mr. Ely:

Whereas, upon your delivery of the manuscript of the Work then tentatively entitled THE LOST DUTCHMAN, in accordance with the terms of the publication contract between you and Morrow, dated January 4, 1950, it became evident to both parties that the Work required revisions beyond the scope of either your energies or our normal editorial procedures in order to make it suitable for publication; and whereas it was mutually determined that John C. Willey, 4 Peter Cooper Road, New York 10, N. Y. should undertake this work and he has completed it to our satisfaction, now, it is mutually understood and agreed:

1. That as compensation for his services, Morrow is hereby authorized to Mr. Willey fifty per cent (50%) of all the Author’s earnings under the contract dated January 4, 1950, above referred to;

2. That Morrow’s settlements with you (hereafter referred to as “the Author”) and Mr Willey (hereafter referred to as the Collaborator) shall be accomplished in this manner: (a) as an advance …

It is further understood and agreed:

1. That the Work, now fully entitled THE LOST DUTCHMSN MINE, shall be published with the Author’s name as sole author without any reference to the Collaborator.

2. That Morrow shall arrange with the Collaborator for reading and correcting proof sheets of the work.

If the above meets with your understanding and approval kindly signify your acceptance of these provisions by countersigning in space provided all four copies of this letter and return three of them to us for our files, which act shall make them finally binding upon both parties.”


The letter is signed by the president of William Morrow and Co. and Sims Ely.

Number 2 above is followed by numbers 3 and 4. The “…” of number two and numbers three and four are paragraphs spelling out the monies – advances, royalties and such.

Now with a joint effort we are getting much closer to the details of Ely’s book. Yes, Willley did do the initial review of the manuscript and he say the potential. I went over this part at my Rendezvous talk. The manuscript and other materials went to Willey & Co. The task of putting it all together was too much for the regular staff, or it would have required too much time (and thus expense) for William Morrow & Co. So they turned to Willey and it seems in many ways moved Ely’s manuscript/Dutchman story out of house. That is, Willey would undertake it, I am guessing, probably in addition to his other duties. That the revisions, writing, structure of the manuscript was so extensive that a special agreement was need to identify the author. Sims (and likely his family) were assured that Sims would be acknowledged as the sole author – but Willey would smile all the way to the bank.

Again a thank you for the push – I was very glad to find this letter! Now it is time to get to shop-vacuuming the “ton” of birch seeds off of our path. Oh Joy!

Respectfully,

T. E. Glover
 

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Matthew Roberts

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TEGlover,

Thanks for the informative reply.

I just have one thing to make clear and then one question.

John C. Willey, the "Editor" of the book, The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely worked for Wm. Morrow & Co. Press. the publishing house who published the book.

John Wiley (note the difference in the spelling of the name) was the President of John Wiley and Sons publishing company of Hoboken, NJ and Manhatten NY. John Wiley and Sons did NOT publish the book.

These are two separate, different people, John C. Willey and John Wiley. NOT the same individual.

Yes I believe very much the John Wiley of Wiley and Sons may well have written/re-written Sim's Ely's book.

But the John C. Willey who worked for Wm. Morrow & Co. had no hand in the books writing.

I think the confusion came from both men having the similar name.

Is that how you understand it ?

Also, I learned a lot be reading through the imprint records of Morrow & Co. concerning the Ely book. There was something very extraordinary going on. John C. Willey was editor in name only. He was the Treasurer of Wm. Morrow & Co. and it seems he was tagged to be the "editor" by William Morrow himself. The reason is quite amazing. If you know about this and what else went on, but don't want to publically talk about it I understand.

Thanks again for the informative reply.

Respectfully,

Matthew
 

Cubfan64

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Thomas,

In your transcript of the letter you posted above, you stated...

whereas it was mutually determined that John C. Wiley, 4 Peter Cooper Road, New York 10, N. Y. should undertake this work and he has completed it to our satisfaction, now, it is mutually understood and agreed:

Was that supposed to read John C Willey?

Thanks and good to hear from you Thomas - hope all is well
 

cactusjumper

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Thomas and Matthew,

How do you think the "Bark Notes" fit into the publication of Ely's book? Seems like they match up......somewhat.

Thanks,

Joe
 

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TEGlover

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Matthew,

I don’t understand how you could be confused (tongue in cheek). Your preciseness on the spelling of the name caused me to review my initial post once again. What I found was I spelled the name with one “l” once (Wiley), with two “ll”s two or three times and – wait for it – with three “lll”s once in the last paragraph. What could go wrong? I went back and tried to correct it to the proper spelling of two “ll”s. If I missed any let me know. Good catch on the spelling – never thought of the other “Wiley.” Not even sure I knew about him.

In the letter cited above from William Morrow and Co. and in other documents the name is spelled with 2 “ll”s: Willey. Sorry about any confusion. The simple fact is spelling has never been one of my strong points – I sometimes seem to follow Thomas Jefferson’s “advice” or whatever: Those who spell words only one way lack imagination. (or something lie that) As my teachers, profs. and my wife can testify, in this respect I sometimes have too much imagination. For me spell checkers are most appreciated!! But they don’t catch everything – as a principal I once knew would say, "They won’t put the “r” back in “shirt.”

Joe,

Re: your question: There should be an overlap between Ely’s book and the Bark Notes for several reasons including: i) Ely and Bark were partners who shared their information with one sometimes asking the other to follow up on a lead/story/whatever that the other had uncovered; ii) as we are all pretty much aware time together in the mountains creates an atmosphere, time and place conducive to conversation; iii) The Ely family had multiple copies of the Bark notes by 1932/33; Ely is said to have used some of the Bark Notes for his material – as long as the Spangler family agreed; iv) Bark shared his conclusions with Sims about the mine in a multipage document in the 1930s and in other letters/writings.

Much of this material was provided to Willey along with Sims’ manuscript, plus apparently a “box” (size unknown) of other misc. and supporting material/items. A personal belief of mine is that among the material supplied to Willey was a copy of Clarks Lost Dutchman article circa 1923/24.

A major difference is that Sims’ book very much was written and produced to be a seller, not an accurate or historical account. Not unknown, think of “Killer Mountains.” After all back then – early and mid 1950s – hardly anyone knew much about what was what with the Lost Dutchman or the people involved. One could spin just about any tale.

Also keep in mind Bark’s manuscript was also written to be published, i.e., made public. Which may explain why Panknin is referred to as “Blank” in the Bark Manuscript – for Bark and Panknin knew each other pretty well and Panknin was still alive when Bark wrote and finished the Notes. (I took the spelling of Panknin from his death certificate (http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/051/10510274.pdf).

It is raining here so I have had a bit of time to respond. Realtor tomorrow and things get into high gear. So it is bye for now and awhile.

Happy hunting,

Thomas
 

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Cubfan64

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Thomas,

So to make certain I'm understanding everything here, let me make some statements and see if I'm interpreting things correctly.

1) John Willey (2 ll's) is the person who was authorized and agreed upon between Morrow and Co. and Sims Ely to revise Ely's original manuscript

2) Sims Ely and Wm. Morrow and Co. signed a contract in 1950 for Ely to provide the book/manuscript

3) John Wiley (1 l) had absolutely nothing to do with anything related to Sims Ely's book.

Kraig - it appears to me that your information is 180 degrees from that of Thomas - is that correct? You stated that Willey (2 ll's) had absolutely nothing to do with writing the book, but for some reason you believe John Wiley (1 l) did?

you also stated the following...

Also, I learned a lot be reading through the imprint records of Morrow & Co. concerning the Ely book. There was something very extraordinary going on. John C. Willey was editor in name only. He was the Treasurer of Wm. Morrow & Co. and it seems he was tagged to be the "editor" by William Morrow himself. The reason is quite amazing. If you know about this and what else went on, but don't want to publically talk about it I understand.

Are you able to expand on any of this?

Maybe I'm just getting completely confused by everything these days.
 

Oroblanco

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Matthew Roberts wrote
Yes I believe very much the John Wiley of Wiley and Sons may well have written/re-written Sim's Ely's book.

May I ask why you believe this to be the case? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco
 

roadrunner

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In this statement

QUOTE: Since we could only test the metals, but not the rock composing the vein, and since we could not identify the minerals only the elements that compose whatever minerals were in the metals I shied away from defining it as analysis. But I should think that technically it was a type of analysis. Our purpose was to get data sufficient to compare our unknowns (the metal(s) in the Jewelry Ore) to the metals in known ores (the Vulture, the Goldfields). The investigation was purposely limited in scope maintaining a test of wrongness. Someone with more knowledge of geology may have structured the testing differently, and perhaps more productively? UNQUOTE:

Being purposely limited in scope maintaining a test of wrongness mean that there where no accurate or multiples tests done on the ore to even see if it matched anything else from this area?
So it could have come from the Black Queen,Bulldog, or Vulture?
 

Cubfan64

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Thomas,

So to make certain I'm understanding everything here, let me make some statements and see if I'm interpreting things correctly.

1) John Willey (2 ll's) is the person who was authorized and agreed upon between Morrow and Co. and Sims Ely to revise Ely's original manuscript

2) Sims Ely and Wm. Morrow and Co. signed a contract in 1950 for Ely to provide the book/manuscript

3) John Wiley (1 l) had absolutely nothing to do with anything related to Sims Ely's book.

Kraig - it appears to me that your information is 180 degrees from that of Thomas - is that correct? You stated that Willey (2 ll's) had absolutely nothing to do with writing the book, but for some reason you believe John Wiley (1 l) did?

you also stated the following...



Are you able to expand on any of this?

Maybe I'm just getting completely confused by everything these days.

Kraig? Thomas? Anyone? Am I misunderstanding the discussion and situation around who was highly involved in writing/rewriting Ely's manuscript to get it into book form?
 

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TEGlover

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If I seem a bit frustrated please excuse. But I have been dealing with Charter Communications tech support -- a better name is Charter Communications non-support and we all know how frustrating such things can be. William Morrow published the book. As one would expect the person who edited/worked on/collaborated on the book was an employee of William Morrow & Co. John C. Willey was an employee of William Morrow and Co, and he was the editor/collaborator who produced the book. That's it. It is straight forward, See the letter above with the salient points of the agreement between the Elys and William Morrow & Co.
 

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Cubfan64

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Thank you Thomas, and I apologize for any additional frustration I may have caused with my questions.

That has to lead me to ask Kraig about his statement...

Yes I believe very much the John Wiley of Wiley and Sons may well have written/re-written Sim's Ely's book.

But the John C. Willey who worked for Wm. Morrow & Co. had no hand in the books writing.

You seem to have information that directly contradicts the copy of the letter posted above - I just want to know if that's correct is all.
 

Matthew Roberts

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Cubfan64,

Yes, as I stated. John C. Willey, the man who's name appears in the Sims Ely book as the editor did not write the Ely book.
He was the Treasurer for Wm. Morrow and Co. from 1952 - 1957. Ely's book was published in 1953.
Willey never held the title of editor at Morrow and Co. He was the assistant to the President from 1946 - 1952.
Treasurer from 1952 -1957. And the President of Morrow from 1958 until his retirement in 1980.

Something very extraordinary went on concerning the publishing of the Ely book.

Matthew
 

Cubfan64

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Thanks both of you (Thomas and Kraig) for making sure I understand your positions. If I have further questions, I'll take them private e-mails.
 

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TEGlover

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What do we know? i) William Morrow & Co. published Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine; ii) the president of William Morrow and Co. asked John C. Willey of William Morrow and Co. to collaborate (read take over) on Sim’s book; iii) John C. Willey was to receive 50% of the royalties for his collaboration, which means his involvement was beyond that of the standard editorial staff; iv) Sims was to retain designation as sole author; v) we know that when John C. Willey was hired by William Morrow & Co. he was hired as assistant to the president (see N.Y. Times obituary below); vi) we know from the letter above that the president of William Morrow & Co. was the person to involve John C. Willey with Ely’s book—which would fit with Willey having been originally hired by the president of the company; and vii) we know from a letter (discussed at the Rendezvous) that John C. Willey had some involvement with Ely’s book from before William Morrow & Co. became officially involved. (I read out part of that letter at the Rendezvous where Willey first tore into Sim’s manuscript, then discussed that with significant changes it could be publishable. All of which would, of course, make John C. Willey (William Morrow & Co.) a logical person to be handed the task of whipping it into shape. After all, it seems it was on his recommendation that William Morrow & Co. took the project on.

Or, as hypothesized perhaps William Morrow & Co. went out of house to get another publishing house to do Ely’s book? Perhaps they then decided to pay John C. Willey of their company (for work he didn’t do)? Perhaps all of John C. Willey’s duties are described, defined, delimited and limited by his job title? Or perhaps, like most of us, he also had extended responsibilities—especially if his boss, the president of the company, asked him?

Or perhaps things are as they are documented—that John C. Willey of William Morrow and Co. was the collaborator on the book and that for this above and beyond he was paid above and beyond. Perhaps there is a mystery, or perhaps things are as they are documented.

If any one has information the bares on the above, please share it with sources. If there is a mystery I think most would want to know. If not then it would be nice to put this one to bed. For me the first rule is parsimony, then come other things, other possibilities. Years ago I tried venturing into/on to a forum such as this and quickly became disillusioned. Another hiatus is in order.

Take care all,

To paraphrase a once popular book--So long and thanks for all the fish!

Thomas

<<<>>>

JOHN C. WILLEY N. Y. TIMES OBITUARY:

John C. Willey Dies; Book Editor Was 75

Published: May 3, 1990

John C. Willey, the former editor in chief of William Morrow & Company, died of pneumonia on April 27 at Southwest Washington Medical Center in Vancouver, Wash., where he had lived for six years. He was 75 years old and had undergone surgery for a bleeding gastric ulcer.

In a book publishing career spanning 34 years, Mr. Willey worked with authors like Margaret Mead, Morris West, Theodore H. White, Ernest K. Gann and Allen Drury.
Born in Cherryfield, Me., on Dec. 28, 1914, Mr. Willey graduated from the University of Maine in 1935, then earned two degrees, master of arts and master of business administration, at Harvard University. He taught English at the University of Maine from 1940 to 1942, then served in the Army transportation corps in World War II.

After his discharge as a captain in 1946, Mr. Willey joined William Morrow as assistant to the president. He served as treasurer from 1952 to 1957 before becoming editor in chief. In 1979 he became a consulting editor, and he retired from the company in April 1980.

There are no immediate survivors.
 

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