The WORST book on the Lost Dutchman Mine is...

Oroblanco

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Hola amigos,

This thread is mainly FOR FUN - and I wish to ask you two questions:

What is the WORST book on the Lost Dutchman gold mine, in your opinion?

Why do you view it as the worst?

Thank you in advance, and I do not plan to "attack" anyone for expressing an opinion or their reasons, just think this could be a fun exercise. There are some atrocious and terribly erroneous books on the Lost Dutchman out there, I am curious about your opinions about these "bottom of the heap" titles. No verbal assaults on the authors of the books however, we do not wish to trash people nor invite libel or slander suits.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Cubfan64

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For me without a doubt it's "Spirit's in the Mountain" by William and Michael Johnson. I'll try to be polite in saying that there are descriptions, claims, photos and assorted "stuff" between the covers that take more than a stretch of the imagination to go along with.
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Never heard of a free public library Joe?? If you like it you can purchase a copy later ( me a cheap un ) \\hich To me most books, except for pure reference ones, are mostly records of failed efforts.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Never heard of a free public library Joe?? If you like it you can purchase a copy later ( me a cheap un ) \\hich To me most books, except for pure reference ones, are mostly records of failed efforts.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hmm - failed efforts? Ely and Bark, along with John Chuning, found a good gold mine thanks to their efforts in searching for a lost mine, and this is in Ely's book; Dobie seemed to think that he had Tayopa pegged, just a couple of examples. And failed efforts are also very useful - we can profit by the mistakes made by others, and avoid searching areas which the author already looked over and found nothing. One of the hard points to get across to a non-treasure hunter is that finding NOTHING, is still making progress to finding something.


Thank you, I look forward to more. (Joe - what is your nominee for worst?)
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

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Oroblanco

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I Am The Horse - I was just making a point that these "failed efforts" still have value. It is always best to look for yourself and judge from that.

However I have to respectfully disagree on the worst book being the one which tells about the mine being found, and thus ending everyones' fun, there are many, many other lost mines to hunt for, in fact several were once far more famous than the Lost Dutchman like Pegleg's black gold nuggets or the Lost Adams, or even Tayopa. When someone finds the LDM, we can expect a well-beaten path right to it and the book will likely sell like hotcakes. I think the only reason the LDM is SO popular is that it has been on TV repeatedly.

No other opinions out there?
Oroblanco
 

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Oroblanco

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yeah but the supes are only a 20-40 minute drive from the house.. nice and convenient..

Then you have other lost mines right in the same mountains - Wagoner's lost ledge of rose quartz gold for example, the Peralta mine(s), the Ludy brothers which may or may not be the same, heck enlarging on this very little you can add the Black Maverick, the lost Pick, the lost Two Soldiers mine just for starters and these are just the more FAMOUS examples! How many people are hunting for Jenkin's lost ledge of gold (also in the Superstitions) or the "other" Tayopa, recorded in a single newspaper article of a well hidden mine somewhere in the Superstitions? For that matter I do not believe that the gold mine found by Joe Deering, was the same mine of Waltz, so you can add that to the list. You live in one of the best areas in the whole country for lost mines amigo, though most of them do not get on TV or even talked about on these treasure forums.

Good luck and good hunting amigo I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS even if the Lost Dutchman's gold mine never existed - there are plenty more to hunt for out there! Good luck amigo!
 

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Oroblanco

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PPS I forgot "the" most famous lost mine of the Superstitions area, which was being hunted for decades before Jacob Waltz died and started his legend, the Doc Thorne mine! Some think it is the same mine as Waltz, however one version of the Doc Thorne mine has it as a placer, not lode, which would not be the same mine as Waltz, plus there are subtle differences like being at the bottom of a canyon, while Waltz's mine is higher up, high enough to see the old Military Trail for instance. Many people went hunting for the lost Doc Thorn mine and even fairly recently a few have gone looking, but without success.
 

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Ya bunch of ignerent hillbillies, I was being facetious . The many stories on Tayopa helped me to eliminate vast regions, twas far larger than the Dutchman... . But essentially it is true, books 'are' failed efforts, which can help immensely.:laughing7::censored::coffee2::coffee2::coffee2:

Side issue, I see that oro is suggesting that I not write the story of Tayopa. sorta like scragging santa claus for many.


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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Oroblanco

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Ya bunch of ignerent hillbillies, I was being facetious . The many stories on Tayopa helped me to eliminate vast regions, twas far larger than the Dutchman... . But essentially it is true, books 'are' failed efforts, which can help immensely.:laughing7::censored::coffee2::coffee2::coffee2:

Side issue, I see that oro is suggesting that I not write the story of Tayopa. sorta like scragging santa claus for many.


Don Jose de La Mancha


No amigo, that is not MY position, but our mutual amigo I_Am_The_Horse, in "killing the dream" sort of way, which I just argued against. Besides, YOUR Tayopa is only ONE of five, possibly even SIX different Tayopas, (six if we count the TayopE mine, which is a single mine, and the Tayopa of the Superstitions, plus the three others you have listed previously besides yours) so there is still plenty of room to hunt Tayopa, even with ONE having been found.

And this too - even if one went a-hunting for a totally-fictional lost mine, say the lost assareio mine, while it is impossible to find it since it never existed, just by being out hunting for it, increases the odds of finding a rich vein or mine that was not known of. Quite a few excellent mines have been found by people out looking for a lost mine, so what ever excuse will get a fellow out and looking is big medicine.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, apparently no one has any more opinions about a 'worst' book on the LDM so it must be that all of them are great? :dontknow: I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Garry

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Roy,

You wrote in another thread:

In defense of Ely's <and Willey's> book, in comparison with some of the books available, how would you rank it?

First off, I doubt my ranking would be based on anything in which treasure hunters are interested, since my focus is the history and not any treasure, I first look for footnotes, primary documents, references, indexes and bibliographies. I also give a lot of weight to anything that is a contemporary account.

Since a portion of Ely’s input would fall very close to a contemporary account and he had the Bark Notes available to him, I am very interested in his story.

I ordered Ely’s book ($75.00) several years ago, read it and put it on the shelf. I got it down and persued it again the other day. I will beg off a ranking, at least, until I have studied Dr. Glover’s new information he is publishing.

I have already said I’m a Bark Notes’ fan, which Ely used, and the book is a major contributor to the LDM legend, Ely is a long way from the bottom of the food chain but that’s not necessarily saying much. The bottom of the food chain is littered with LDM books!

Even so, some still hold a place in understanding the timeline and evolution of the LDM story.

The worst book I have ever read is “The Story of Superstition Mountain and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine” by Robert Joseph Allen (1971) The violent, tragic, “true” account of the gold-hungry men who challenged the treacherous peak sacred to the Apaches.

Why is it bad? One doesn’t know where to start but just one example has Dr. Thorne visiting Cochise in his tepee.

Although the book is terrible it falls into the category above, relating to the modern day evolution of the LDM story. It appears to be the seed for some later stories of a notorious modern day fabricator of history.

The most boring book I have ever tried to read is Charles Kenworthy’s “Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman”. I’m sure some treasure hunters loved it. I did like his use of topo maps and his openness with the locations of where he believed the mines lay. But it was all in CAPITAL LETTERS and he seemed to be making up clues as he went along to reach his predetermined destinations?

Garry
 

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Oroblanco

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Thank you Garry, that is the sort of response I was hoping for! :thumbsup:
 

Michael Swartz

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Roy,

You wrote in another thread:

In defense of Ely's <and Willey's> book, in comparison with some of the books available, how would you rank it?

First off, I doubt my ranking would be based on anything in which treasure hunters are interested, since my focus is the history and not any treasure, I first look for footnotes, primary documents, references, indexes and bibliographies. I also give a lot of weight to anything that is a contemporary account.


The worst book I have ever read is “The Story of Superstition Mountain and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine” by Robert Joseph Allen (1971) The violent, tragic, “true” account of the gold-hungry men who challenged the treacherous peak sacred to the Apaches.

Why is it bad? One doesn’t know where to start but just one example has Dr. Thorne visiting Cochise in his tepee.

Although the book is terrible it falls into the category above, relating to the modern day evolution of the LDM story. It appears to be the seed for some later stories of another notorious modern day fabricator of history.

Garry


I think everyone needs to take a step back and look at Lost Dutchman Mine books (all Lost Dutchman Mine books) in their proper context.
You cannot ask the question, what is the worst or the best book without understanding and adding to the equasion the reality of all Lost Dutchman books.

Robert Joseph Allen's book, The Story of Superstition Mountain and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, was never written as a historical account of an actual historical event. Therefore, if you judge his book purely on historical evidence the book will of course fall short of your perceived expectations. And passages such as Dr. Thorne in Cochise's teepee will seem outrageous to you.

Allen's book was written in 1970-1971 and classified under Library of Congress Class 1.7G Subclass Western Folklore and Legend.
Folklore and Legend means things with a basis in reality but not a true, proven historical event. Other examples would be the Lockness Monster, Bigfoot or maybe Unicorns.
There are two types of literature Garry, Fiction and Non-Fiction. Non-Fiction means true and historical accounts and Fiction means a story or tale without true historical documentation.

There are some things about the LDM that can be documented in history such as Jacob Waltz was a real man with a birthdate and death date but the central basis of the story, the lost mine, is a western folklore, legend, unproven tale or story. But the same is true for Bigfoot sightings, Lochness sightings and Unicorn sightings. Just because there are some incidental facts concerning details of places, and people who reportedly saw or were involved with these various accounts and stories, does not make the Lost Dutchman Mine story a proven historical ( Non-Fiction) account or book. Robert Allen had every right to weave Thorne and Cochise into his story and it was entirely appropriate under it's context.

I think the basis of the misunderstanding is with modern day LDM authors who sell and market their books as if they were 100% true, factual, documented accounts while their sources were many times never intended as true, factual, documented accounts. The modern authors blended the two and erased the line leading readers to believe they were reading 100% pure history when in reality they were reading roughly 40% historical accounts and 60% folklore, legend, and stories passed down through the decades as different individuals knew them or had interpreted them.

Everything needs to be kept in the proper perspective and context Garry. If you vilify RJ Allen as a terrible LDM author and liar because you are swept up purely in documented history and do not understand the proper context his book was written in, the problem is with you, not Mr. Allen.

This is just my take on the question of worst or best LDM book.

Thanks for reading,

Michael Swartz
 

releventchair

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Not sure if the one with attempted helicopter sabotage with a rope and snake placed near/ at rented room was The Killer Mountains by Gentry. A tan hardcover with a holed skull and something else best I can remember it was from a library sale so was old, I gifted it to someone in Green Valley quite a while back. I did enjoy reading it but felt it inconclusive,or just did not want to accept it was a know worked rediscovered yet again and played out mine.
It did leave the impression its not a cake walk pokin around there though so credit for that.
 

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Oroblanco

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I think everyone needs to take a step back and look at Lost Dutchman Mine books (all Lost Dutchman Mine books) in their proper context.
You cannot ask the question, what is the worst or the best book without understanding and adding to the equasion the reality of all Lost Dutchman books.

Robert Joseph Allen's book, The Story of Superstition Mountain and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, was never written as a historical account of an actual historical event. Therefore, if you judge his book purely on historical evidence the book will of course fall short of your perceived expectations. And passages such as Dr. Thorne in Cochise's teepee will seem outrageous to you.

Allen's book was written in 1970-1971 and classified under Library of Congress Class 1.7G Subclass Western Folklore and Legend.
Folklore and Legend means things with a basis in reality but not a true, proven historical event. Other examples would be the Lockness Monster, Bigfoot or maybe Unicorns.
There are two types of literature Garry, Fiction and Non-Fiction. Non-Fiction means true and historical accounts and Fiction means a story or tale without true historical documentation.

There are some things about the LDM that can be documented in history such as Jacob Waltz was a real man with a birthdate and death date but the central basis of the story, the lost mine, is a western folklore, legend, unproven tale or story. But the same is true for Bigfoot sightings, Lochness sightings and Unicorn sightings. Just because there are some incidental facts concerning details of places, and people who reportedly saw or were involved with these various accounts and stories, does not make the Lost Dutchman Mine story a proven historical ( Non-Fiction) account or book. Robert Allen had every right to weave Thorne and Cochise into his story and it was entirely appropriate under it's context.

I think the basis of the misunderstanding is with modern day LDM authors who sell and market their books as if they were 100% true, factual, documented accounts while their sources were many times never intended as true, factual, documented accounts. The modern authors blended the two and erased the line leading readers to believe they were reading 100% pure history when in reality they were reading roughly 40% historical accounts and 60% folklore, legend, and stories passed down through the decades as different individuals knew them or had interpreted them.

Everything needs to be kept in the proper perspective and context Garry. If you vilify RJ Allen as a terrible LDM author and liar because you are swept up purely in documented history and do not understand the proper context his book was written in, the problem is with you, not Mr. Allen.

This is just my take on the question of worst or best LDM book.

Thanks for reading,

Michael Swartz

The topic is asking for OPINIONS of books, which is not intended as, and specifically not offered as any kind of attack on any author. With any book on any topic, some may love it and some may well hate it, we all have differing opinions as to what we like to read. I do not see Garry's post as any attack on Mr Allen, simply that he puts that book at the bottom of the rather extensive list. We can not know where Mr Allen got all of his information such as the incident of Dr Thorn in Cochise's tepee, which as far as I know is unique and not mentioned in any other book on the topic. Garry did not call Mr Allen a liar nor fabricator etc. All authors are at the mercy of their sources - sometimes the sources themselves can be later shown to be not only erroneous but deliberately false.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I am sorry if this topic is offensive to you, it was and is a "popularity" type of "poll" NOT an attempt to trash/vilify or otherwise assault the character of any author.
Oroblanco
 

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Michael coffee or :occasion14: Actually all of the fairly true bits of data on the Lost Dutchman mine can be put into a small pamphlet. So If you are to sell a new book you have to embellish it a bit.

For example Frank Dobie wrote a wonderful book which included a personal trip to Tayopa area, yet, when it is analyzed one can show that he never set foot in the Tayopa zone, but it is still a wonderful book and now a quoted source for data on Tayopa????
 

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