Karl von Mueller: LDM FOUND in 1946

[TreasureTales]

A couple of months ago I was very fortunate to have been sent some issues of newspapers that contained many articles written by Karl von Mueller, or one of his aliases. One such newspaper, the Late Winter-Early Spring 1993 issue of The TH-ers Express (Vol. 11, No. 1 - page 4) contained an article by Karl that stated the following:

"An interesting sidelight or two on caves as places of concealment is given here for the benefit
of the reader. I have had proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Lost Dutchman Mine
is not a mine but a cave, and it is no longer lost, but it was found in 1946. I am convinced that
it is a geological impossibilitiy for gold in any quantity to have been deposited in the structure
surrounding the cave and that the gold which has been removed from the cave and the gold and
silver which remains was transported into the cave by Man."

Although I am not trying to dissuade anyone from looking for the LDM, I did think some of you might find this piece of info from Karl von Mueller - the most successful and respected cache hunter in the 20th century - quite interesting, and perhaps useful in some way.

 

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[TreasureTales]

That is interesting! What he's talking about would be one of Walt's 2 cache's, not the actual mine. Is there anything else on the article? Any clues to the location?

I still have a large stack of the newspapers to read, but nothing else thus far. This is the first info about the LMD that I've seen written by him. He said he didn't put much faith in the old legends because the original stories have been so contorted and convoluted by subsequent writers and storytellers. He said the only way to study these legends is to start with the primary (contemporary news sources of the day or journals) resources and go from there. If I read anything else about the LDM, I'll be sure to post it in this topic.

 

[TreasureTales]

i have read a few of his books on hunting chaches... book writer ..

He wrote books and newspaper and magazine columns, that's true. But he was also a successful cache hunter. He didn't waste his time and money researching and chasing caches that were bogus. He thought the LDM was found and that it was not as purported to be by some of the "experts." So you may dismiss what he says because he was a "book writer" or you may learn something from all sources (including Karl von Mueller) and let it help you in your quest. A wise researcher gleens info from all kinds of sources, even sources that he doesn't necessarily agree with.

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

That is interesting! What he's talking about would be one of Walt's 2 cache's, not the actual mine. Is there anything else on the article? Any clues to the location?

I still have a large stack of the newspapers to read, but nothing else thus far. This is the first info about the LMD that I've seen written by him. He said he didn't put much faith in the old legends because the original stories have been so contorted and convoluted by subsequent writers and storytellers. He said the only way to study these legends is to start with the primary (contemporary news sources of the day or journals) resources and go from there. If I read anything else about the LDM, I'll be sure to post it in this topic.

KvM wrote the foreword to the LDM book The sterling Legend by estee conatser in 1972. This was a pro-con presentation. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule

 

[the blindbowman]

ya kellco metal detector co sold a few of them and many books on treasure hunting and cache, i know i got every book they sold one year lol ... thats all i know of his work . it was well written ....and yes kellco is still around ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Karl von Mueller believed the LDM was a cave where Waltz cached high graded ore. There is no evidence to support his theory.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

i got to agree with cj ,.....i dont know of any direct statements stateing the LDM was a cave . it is a funnle shape pit IMHO ...the dutchman dose refer to the tunnle at one piont and the tunnle could be a cave but , there is no facts as of yet to prove ether way ..that i know of ...

its a shame if we could all get togather this legend would be solved before the ink drys ...but i would agree that the dutchman put his cache of high grade ore in the cave at the hiden camp ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

von Muller claimed he had been to the cave, and seen the gold and silver...as I remember.

Joe

 

[TreasureTales]

Just for the record, I finished reading the article by KvM in The Th-ers Express late last night and learned that the article had originally been printed in a 1957 issue of National Prospector's Gazette. That means between 1946 (when he claims proof was provided that the LDM was in a cave) and 1957 (when he first wrote the article I've referenced), something happened that made Karl feel it was permissible to print his opinion about the LDM gold cache. What that was, I have no idea...at least not yet. As I said, I'm reading through this stack of papers and am finding bits of useful and/or interesting information as I do so.

Will keep you apprised if I read more about this treasure legend.

 

[dennisdunigan]

I have been reading a lot of postings of fellow hunters with the belief that the LDM is a gold cache. I am leaning that way myself. But there is always the chance that there are both. That would explain the unusual stories with odd facts. If there are both a mine and a stash blended into one story we will have to figure out what pertains to what. Well more research to do!

 

[TreasureTales]

As promised, more info about the LDM from Karl von Mueller (Dean Miller). Source: National Prospector's Gazetter, December-January 1977, Page 4 (Ask Examino column)

"Q. A co-worker and I have had a serious disagreement about the Victorio Peak Treasure at work. I say it is a complete fabrication and he believes in it 100%. We both have implicit faith in ASK EXAMINO so we turn to you and will abide by your answer. Ralph S., CA."

"A. The Victorio Peak treasure yarn is good enough to eat ---it is pure baloney!!! Bob Chenoweth pretty well layed it on the line in his interview with a reporter of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram when he stated it was a rip-off from the word GO. He stated that if Doc Noss would have found the gold, he would have hauled it out and started spending the cash he could get from it. Another interesting facet that was widely published, and ignored by the treasure fraternity, is that the alleged "samples" that were submitted to the governor of New Mexico wre declared to be coin metal and not ancient gold or silver at all. Of course, there are many other indications that are immediately obvious to the experienced TH-er that simply have not proved to be danger signals to investors and TH-ers in the past. Like the Lost Dutchman and other fictional treasures, there will continue to be publicity-seekers and rip-off artists with maps who will galdly accept your, or anybody else's, investment or grubstake to dig it out and when your money is gone, the "expert" will be gone, too. Now, let us ask you a question: Do you realize that the Lost Dutchman has been "found" over 35 times in the past 10 years and that the Lost Adams has been found 11 times in the past 10 years, according to newspaper reports, and no investor has ever gained a penny from all of these discoveries. Who is kidding what, and how?"



Again, I am not taking sides here, but merely presenting some information that some of you may find interesting.

 

[cactusjumper]

TreasureTales,

When the LDM is found, it will not be publicised. A small, tight, group of men will clean out the mine in just a few short seasons. They will receive their checks for the ore, and then try.....very hard, to keep quiet about it.

While most will remain silent about the event, others will have a very difficult time not crowing about what they have done. Some in the Dutch Hunting Community will realize the truth, but the world at large will remain ignorant.

What's the general concensus out there? If it's found, do we really want to know, or do we prefer to keep "The Golden Dream"?

Should any of you ever see the LDM, I doubt you will be looking at a "cave".

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

Joe: "...What's the general concensus out there? If it's found, do we really want to know, or do we prefer to keep "The Golden Dream"?..."

Well, as Maxwell Scott said in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." A great number of TH-ers never, deep down in their hearts, really expect to locate a big recovery. It's all about the quest and vicarious adventure. I'll bet most LDM hunters would rather the thing remain 'lost'.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

You have voiced an opinion that is likely shared by many.

I am not sure that the search could match entering a cave full of gold bars, turning your light on them and placing your hand on the glittering surface. I doubt any search will make your heart beat that loudly.

For the true treasure hunter, the search never ends. They are hardwired to seek out and solve a mystery. At the end of the rainbow, one legend is replaced by another. It is likely that only those who have reached that place will be able to discern the truth in that statement.

It is the "Place" that retains the legend......long after the treasure is gone.

For a better understanding of that philosophy, I would suggest: "Wisdom Sits in Places: Landscape and Language among the Western Apache", By Keith H. Basso
University of New Mexico Press 1996

After reading that book, you will never look at your favorite places in the same way again.

Joe

 

[Springfield]

I'll bet most LDM hunters would rather the thing remain 'lost'.

Most notably those with a financial interest in the LDM. There are a bit of people making a LOT of money off the legend of the LDM. If it were to be found, that source of income would probably dissipate.

Bingo!

 

[TEXMAN]

Just for the record, I finished reading the article by KvM in The Th-ers Express late last night and learned that the article had originally been printed in a 1957 issue of National Prospector's Gazette. That means between 1946 (when he claims proof was provided that the LDM was in a cave) and 1957 (when he first wrote the article I've referenced), something happened that made Karl feel it was permissible to print his opinion about the LDM gold cache. What that was, I have no idea...at least not yet. As I said, I'm reading through this stack of papers and am finding bits of useful and/or interesting information as I do so.

Will keep you apprised if I read more about this treasure legend.

That is interesting! What he's talking about would be one of Walt's 2 cache's, not the actual mine. Is there anything else on the article? Any clues to the location?

I still have a large stack of the newspapers to read, but nothing else thus far. This is the first info about the LMD that I've seen written by him. He said he didn't put much faith in the old legends because the original stories have been so contorted and convoluted by subsequent writers and storytellers. He said the only way to study these legends is to start with the primary (contemporary news sources of the day or journals) resources and go from there. If I read anything else about the LDM, I'll be sure to post it in this topic.

KvM wrote the foreword to the LDM book The sterling Legend by estee conatser in 1972. This was a pro-con presentation. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule

Just curious, if by 1957 it was proven impossible for gold to be deposited in the area, What was stated in the 1972 foreword ?

 

[TreasureTales]

The reason I post this information is not to disspell the legend, but rather to help those in their quest to find it. IF I were looking for the LDM, I'd want to know everything that was ever written about it - even if what was written is from an opposing viewpoint (as is the case with what KvM wrote). So please don't shoot the messenger (me)!!!

First thing I'd do, I'd look for verification of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram newspaper interview that was mentioned by KvM. If I could find the actual article, I'd then know that at least that part of what KvM said was true - that Bob Chenoweth gave an interview and talked about the LDM. And just maybe there is something in that newspaper article that will shed more light on the legend, even if that light is a negative one. Isn't that what research is all about - separating the wheat from the chaff and gleening bits of info from any and all sources?

 

[TEXMAN]

LOL, sorry TT don't want to shoot anyone!

Guess I could have worded that differently but, actually that was more of a question to siegfried schlagruleabout the foreword to the LDM book The sterling Legend by estee conatser in 1972.

I was just asking:

Since he [KvM] claimed proof that the LDM was a cave prior to 1957, then 15 yrs later in 1972 was that still his position ? OR did he do a backflip to support the book ? siegfried said it was a pro-con presentation so, thought I would ask. regards, TEXMAN

 

[TreasureTales]

TEXMAN, I wasn't directing my previous comments to anyone in particular - please don't take my comments personally. I was merely trying to clarify my reasons for posting what I post here.

The fact of the matter is, I am not interested in the LDM in any way other than as an interesting and long-lived legend. Although I hope a TNetter finds the cave/mine/or whatever, I will not be holding my breath. LOL Still, if I can provide any little tiny pieces of this huge puzzle, I'm more than willing to do so because I like to share info - particularly if that info does NOT relate to something I'm working on. LOL. That's an example of the fickleness of treasure hunting, I suppose.

KvM (Dean Miller) was known as the greatest cache hunter of the 20th century (if not of all time), so whenever I read his opinions, I tend to pay attention to them. Again, not saying the legend of the LDM is fallacious, just saying I'm never going to be actively seeking it myself - for several reasons. And I'll say it again - I'd be making a beeline to the nearest library to try to find a microfilm copy of that newspaper article. Research is king in treasure legends, so I'd also try to get hold of a copy of the book by Estee Conaster to see what is said in it.

 

[TEXMAN]

LOL, TT... I don't take too much personally ...thought I may have offened you, and should clarify my response as well.

While the LDM is very interesting, and I've read about it for years... I have no intention of actively searching for it. Hopefully someday a lucky TH'r will solve the mystery. If not...the legend lives on!!

TEXMAN