Army pack train ....

Oroblanco

Gold Member
Jan 21, 2005
7,837
9,813
DAKOTA TERRITORY
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
Oroblanco, I see tthat you already had your:coffee2: have you ever read the old story of the spirit cursed gold mine. get another cup of:coffee2: np:cat:

Muchas gracias NP, always will take another cup (almost that is) sorry for that long-winded babble just wanted to try to address the inevitable arguments on several points which always arises whenever the LDM is discussed. As you pointed out, all we have to work from are at best third hand accounts, for those whom are convinced the mine never existed, and/or it was found and all worked out, why not just stay home and forget it? :dontknow:

I have here (somewhere) an OLD newspaper article telling of the haunted Superstition mountains, I think many would enjoy reading it; some time I will try to post it. The article does not tell of the LDM however so may not belong in this section but is great for the campfire tales.

:coffee: :coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Not Peralta

Bronze Member
Mar 23, 2013
2,167
3,060
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Oroblanco, have you ever read any of Maurice kildares stories on the superstitions, his web site is really amazing and you can read the stories on the net all the way back to the 30's, but be sure to get more:coffee2: np:cat:
 

roadrunner

Bronze Member
Jan 28, 2012
1,230
520
Pinal Mountains,Arizona
Detector(s) used
Garrett Groundhog-2012-1st MD.
White's Goldmaster V/Sat-2nd-MD-2013
Tesoro Lobo-2015-3rd
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
If Waltz took Julia and whom ever to the mine.
But was at the verde, and it would be until the next day to get there, to the mine.
Then it is not in the supes.
The Verde empties into the salt.
Unless Im wrong.
Why would he go North to the Verde, to get to his mine in the supes?
Unless the Verde was part of the supes back then or I say the salt river mountains.
 

Springfield

Silver Member
Apr 19, 2003
2,850
1,381
New Mexico
Detector(s) used
BS
Well we all have our opinions; however keep in mind that the gold in the matchbox specimen (as with the earring) is not like MOST gold mined in Arizona, which is mostly from a different type of gold vein than Waltz's. <The majority of gold deposits in Arizona are Epithermal type, which are normally shallow and have a good amount of copper alloyed with the gold> This could mean it did not come from AZ, or that it came from the rarest type of gold vein (in Arizona that is rare) a hypothermal type, which has high gold to silver content, little copper, large grain size of the host quartz among other key points. The Vulture mine had hypothermal vein characteristics similar to what the LDM must be, if you look at Vulture gold it does not look like MOST gold found in Arizona either.
<specimen from the Vulture sold at auction>
View attachment 1012818

Interesting that you point out that the matchbox ore resembles Vulture ore but not known Superstition gold samples, which carry significant copper. Freudian slip? The following thread discusses alleged 'Dutchman ore' in depth, for those who are interesthtml. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/356971-dutchman-ore.html
 

Oroblanco

Gold Member
Jan 21, 2005
7,837
9,813
DAKOTA TERRITORY
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
Springfield wrote
Interesting that you point out that the matchbox ore resembles Vulture ore but not known Superstition gold samples, which carry significant copper. Freudian slip? The following thread discusses alleged 'Dutchman ore' in depth, for those who are interesthtml. Dutchman Ore http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/356971-dutchman-ore.html

Nah no 'Freudian slip' at all, I was trying to point out that the different TYPES of lode gold look remarkably different. Too many prospectors think in terms of <just> lode and placer, not taking into account there are several different kinds of placers (alluvial, elluvial, aeolian, saprolitic etc) and several different kind of lode (hypothermal, mesothermal, epithermal, disseminated, paleoplacer etc) so should look for those differences which are a help in ID-ing a deposit. Vulture ore does not match candlebox ore even to my non-expert eye, but does look similar, in particular the color of the gold showing less copper for example. Finding gold that does not match the LDM does not mean you are not on the right track, as you know placer gold near a lode often does not match the gold in a lode.

Interesting thread too which you referred to, however unfortunately there are photos of gold ore in it, which are being called Dutchman ore, and are not proven to be Dutchman ore. The beautiful ring ore example was/is a close match, but not a perfect match, and has an unknown provenance.

Not Peralta wrote
Oroblanco, have you ever read any of Maurice kildares stories on the superstitions, his web site is really amazing and you can read the stories on the net all the way back to the 30's, but be sure to get more np

No, I have never read Kildare's stories, thanks for the tip! :thumbsup:

Roadrunner wrote
If Waltz took Julia and whom ever to the mine.
But was at the verde, and it would be until the next day to get there, to the mine.
Then it is not in the supes.
The Verde empties into the salt.
Unless Im wrong.
Why would he go North to the Verde, to get to his mine in the supes?
Unless the Verde was part of the supes back then or I say the salt river mountains.

Well, Waltz did not get all the way to the mine with Julia; according to that story, they had taken a wagon, and he had told Julia and Reiney to wear old clothes for they would be going through heavy brush, which might also be a clue. Considering the distance from Phoenix to the Verde river crossing, it may just be that was how far they got that day, and he intended to cross the Salt river the next day, as we find in the Holmes account; remember Holmes version has him follow Waltz along much the same path, however after camping at Hidden Water he then followed Waltz south across the Salt river to Tortilla creek before running into Waltz sitting there waiting for him with the rifle sights on Holmes. We might also note that Holmes did not go to First Water as you find in the Holmes directions right after Waltz was dead, rather, he went straight to Hidden Water. It may be that this route (which I call the northern route) might be the easiest way in to the mine, or perhaps the easiest way to find it, as some of the terrain is certainly not easy. At least not easy to me! A side point may be in that story of Waltz taking his friends, that it was possible to go much of the way by wagon (even then) and a part of the way would be on foot, through heavy brush. I get the impression from that, that you can not drive a wagon to the mine, perhaps can not ride a horse to it either, which might explain the clue about "no cowboy will find my mine" for most cowboys would not get off their horse if they did not have to.

It is also possible as you stated, that the mine is not within what we call the Superstitions today, perhaps somewhere on the Verde, or in the "rolls" where some treasure hunters used to believe was where the Doc Thorne gold was? Considering how many quads go tearing around the rolls however it seems likely that someone would have stumbled onto it by now, if it were there however.

We can just dismiss the whole thing as a fiction too, or conclude that Waltz never had a mine just a cache, that it was the Pit mine and is now mined out or another mine perhaps in Goldfield (old Mexican mining tools were found at the Mormon Stope, along with some old workings, and this vein was especially rich in gold ) so we can stay home and watch TV. The Forest Service will be happier and think of the boot leather you will save! :laughing7:

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

:coffee2::coffee2:
 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
7,754
5,388
Arizona
Roy,

Perhaps Waltz's mine was a cache in a worked out old silver mine. Something like this:



This (room) is all the way at the back of the pit mine.:dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

hooch

Banned
Aug 4, 2008
209
182
Ahwatukee
In an older thread, you can find other evidences including statements of a person who saw the receipts for the shipment of a quarter million dollars worth of gold by Waltz; this is exclusive of the several thousand he shelled out to help his friends Julia and Reiney, and was shipped when the price of gold was pegged at $20.17 an ounce (troy).

Sooooo, you say in one of your posts how relatively small his mine must have been, then above the kicker, "a person who saw the receipts for the shipment of a quarter million dollars worth of gold by Waltz." So again, let's do some basic math, $20 bucks an ounce and Waltz selling $250,000 worth of gold at then $20 an ounce. So the Dutchman who lived in nothing more than a river bottom shanty, had come up with 12,500 ounces or 780 pounds of it. So let me get this straight, the Dutchman refined 750 pounds of gold while nobody saw anything other than him disappearing into the mountains for a couple weeks? And then to top it off some random jackwagon off the street saw the receipt for $250,000 dollars of refined gold at the going price of $20 an ounce. Now call me a skeptic, but I shoulda wore my hip waders to cross this **** river.
 

Last edited:

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
7,754
5,388
Arizona
To get back to the Pack Train thingie..........I believe it was just a figure of speech, like built like a brick $#t house.:dontknow:

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Oroblanco

Gold Member
Jan 21, 2005
7,837
9,813
DAKOTA TERRITORY
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
Roy,

Perhaps Waltz's mine was a cache in a worked out old silver mine. Something like this:



This (room) is all the way at the back of the pit mine.:dontknow:

Take care,

Joe

Could be but I doubt it; that would have meant that Waltz's ore should have tested high for silver content, much higher than it did, which was only some 2 oz/ton vs over 5200 oz/gold. What I really think the Pit mine is, is the lost Peralta mine. Aka Ludy and Jacobs mine, Ludy brothers etc. LOVE that photo amigo, it is (almost) enough to tempt me to go visit the infamous Pit mine myself. However our time for this trip is pretty well already spoken for (can not spend the winter) so will not have the opportunity this fall.

Hooch wrote
Sooooo, you say in one of your posts how relatively small his mine must have been, then above the kicker, "a person who saw the receipts for the shipment of a quarter million dollars worth of gold by Waltz." So again, let's do some basic math, $20 bucks an ounce and Waltz selling $250,000 worth of gold at then $20 an ounce. So the Dutchman who lived in nothing more than a river bottom shanty, had come up with 12,500 ounces or 780 pounds of it. So let me get this straight, the Dutchman refined 750 pounds of gold while nobody saw anything other than him disappearing into the mountains for a couple weeks? And then to top it off some random jackwagon off the street saw the receipt for $250,000 dollars of refined gold at the going price of $20 an ounce. Now call me a skeptic, but I shoulda wore my hip waders to cross this **** river.

So now you are calling me a liar? Hmm.

You like math do you Hooch? You think that a SMALL mine, could not have produced some 800 pounds of gold huh? Well how about this amigo:

Dick Holmes had an assay done on the ore from beneath Waltz's deathbed. It returned @ some $110,000 in gold per ton, and two ounces of silver. That is, divide $110,000 by the then-current price of gold, $20.67 per ounce, or in other words each ton of Waltz's ore (the type found beneath his bed) had a gold content of 5321.722302854378 ounces. Lets round that down to 5300 for the moment.

Now how much gold does it take, to make say, 800 pounds? As you know gold is measured in Troy weight, and there are 12 Troy ounces per Troy pound, so 800 x 12 = 9600 ounces of gold.

Remember that assay figure now? Rounding DOWN we have 5300 ounces per ton of rock. Now divide that 9600 by 5300, and you will know about how many tons of the rich gold ore that Waltz would have had to mine out, in order to have gotten 800 pounds worth of gold or a quarter million. Do you have a high number of tons of ore for your result, or is it more like less than TWO TONS of rock?

How much space does TWO TONS of rock take up, when it is a solid mass? (Put your hands down Don Jose, Cactusjumper and Springfield and you other greybeard prospectors!) I will give you a hint - it is less than two cubic yards.

Even allowing for waste rock removal, some lower grade ore (surely it could not be ALL bonanza grade) and you still end up with a relatively small amount of rock that got mined out, which matches fairly well with the (alternate) version of the LDM as a mine shaft with a hole no larger than a barrel, and not more than a dozen feet deep. No need for a huge funnel shaped pit, cross tunnel etc for the amount of gold he should have gotten then would be HUGE as well, not just a quarter million but many millions.

I don't know where you got the idea that Waltz was living in a "shack" he had a modest adobe home, and was apparently quite comfortable right up until the great flood of 1891 (spring) which flooded him out and he also apparently became sick due to it, eventually dying of pneumonia as he was not a young man.

Not everyone would go mine out ALL the gold he could get, many people would only mine as much as would make one comfortable, as it appears Waltz did. We could also take into consideration that up until 1886, there were hostile Apaches roaming the Superstitions whom did not hesitate to kill any whites or Pimas or Mexicans they could, and by the time they were finally rounded up, Waltz was then an old man, at 76 years of age when Geronimo surrendered. He may not have been physically able to go back and mine the gold in a big way. Would you go ALONE trekking into the Superstitions, if there was a good chance that a war party of Apaches was in there waiting for new victims?

You are certainly welcome to your own opinion(s) Hooch, just thought perhaps you had not done the math to see that the LDM really could be, and logically is, a relatively small affair. Waltz and his partner apparently only worked with hand tools, possibly not even black powder, so you know it takes a LOT of work to bust up rocks with hammer, drill, pick and bar, I would not expect that a hard rock mine made by hand tools alone would be a very large affair. But the richness of the LDM ore also points to a smaller size mine, no huge pit requiring ladders etc for this would have produced much, much more gold and there is no evidence that Waltz ever got more than a bit over that quarter million (plus the several thousand used to help his friends, etc).

To tie this in to the topic, what if the Apache Trail IS the Military Trail that Waltz referred to? It was the route you would take to get to Fort McDowell, which was in existence in his day, and no doubt Army pack trains traveled it, on the route between Ft McDowell and Ft Reno in the Mazatzals. I would point out that when Waltz said the "military trail" he was saying something that must have been common knowledge among the people listening (one version has it that he said this in a saloon packed with people trying to get clues from him) so it is not likely that the "old military trail" was one rarely used or hardly known to most people. Logically it would be a military trail used enough and long enough, that it was known to many folks as "the" old military trail.

What this could mean is that the mine could actually be in sight of the modern road today known as the Apache Trail! (And by extension, very likely would mean the mine is outside of the Wilderness Area, and thus not subject to the severe restrictions!)

Good luck and good hunting Hooch, Cactusjumper and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

:coffee: :coffee2: :coffee2:
 

sgtfda

Bronze Member
Feb 5, 2004
2,349
3,877
Mesa Arizona
Roy

Not all prospectors are alike. Some like myself and perhaps Waltz have a good spot with nice gold and only take what they need. Personally I could care less. It's not going anywhere. Just depends on a persons nature. Others with gold fever will stop at nothing to get it all.
Perhaps the mountain only punishes the greedy. Now there is a thought!
 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
7,754
5,388
Arizona
Roy,

"Could be but I doubt it; that would have meant that Waltz's ore should have tested high for silver content, much higher than it did, which was only some 2 oz/ton vs over 5200 oz/gold. What I really think the Pit mine is, is the lost Peralta mine. Aka Ludy and Jacobs mine, Ludy brothers etc. LOVE that photo amigo, it is (almost) enough to tempt me to go visit the infamous Pit mine myself. However our time for this trip is pretty well already spoken for (can not spend the winter) so will not have the opportunity this fall."

I believe my premise was that the Pit Mine was a cache for Waltz's ore, not that it was the original source. Could be the reason Waltz never filed a claim. Fear that the owners of the cache would come back if they learned someone was using their ore for a......bank account.

I am convinced that the $250,000. story is a complete fabrication. You keep going back to that story as if there was some truth to it. There has never been a "mint" in Sacramento. The US Mints never took ore in. They only accepted refined ore......gold.

Other than that, nice post.:thumbsup:

As I understand it, the Pit Mine has been resealed. You would have to break the law to see that room. Since the mine was cleaned out, it would be a big risk for little, if any, return.

Take care,

Joe
 

Last edited:

Oroblanco

Gold Member
Jan 21, 2005
7,837
9,813
DAKOTA TERRITORY
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
Roy,


I believe my premise was that the Pit Mine was a cache for Waltz's ore, not that it was the original source. Could be the reason Waltz never filed a claim. Fear that the owners of the cache would come back if they learned someone was using their ore for a......bank account.

Using the Pit mine for a cache would mean the ore had to be hauled from some other mine, which does not make sense to me. Sorry but I can not picture anyone hauling ore around in the Superstitions to hide it in another mine.

Cactusjumper also wrote
I am convinced that the $250,000. story is a complete fabrication. You keep going back to that story as if there was some truth to it. There has never been a "mint" in Sacramento. The US Mints never took ore in. They only accepted refined ore......gold.

Other than that, nice post.:thumbsup:

Haven't we been over this before? Do you recall my posting the extract from a letter, in which the author stated it was "hard to deny it when you see the receipts"? Also, I don't know why you would think that a MINT is the ONLY place a miner could, or would, ship ore to be sold/refined. Many smelters were in operation in the 19th century, like GUTENBEBGER WILLIAM, Sacramento Foundry, corner Front and N. <from the 1880 business directory of Sacramento>

I think we went over the Wells Fargo end of this ad nauseum as well, and there are enough newspaper sources for various sites in Arizona as shipping agents for Wells Fargo in the lifetime of Waltz to prove that it was certainly possible to ship via Wells Fargo from AZ, even if the actual wagons/stages might be subcontractors. I do not mind if you think it is a complete fabrication, however:

  • there were places to ship ore to in Sacramento,
  • we have a person who stated he saw the actual receipts for the shipments, and
  • we can show that Wells Fargo was definitely accepting freight in Arizona, even though "officially" they now claim they did not.

Further, based on the only assay of Waltz's ore (done for Holmes) and the (alternate) description of the mine, a hole some 12 feet deep, with an entrance the size of a barrel, would amount to several tons of rock, which should have produced considerably more than four or five thousand dollars that can be (roughly) accounted for at the end of Waltz's life. Where did the rest of the gold go? We can add the mule load of ore seen being sold at Tucson too. If you figure it out, a few tons of material, very rich, should have produced in that general neighborhood of a quarter million $$$. So the story of the quarter million is certainly within the realm of possibility, with the probable mistake of someone inserting "MINT" into the facts, when it could have (and more likely would have) been a foundry/smelter/refiner.

Cactusjumper also wrote
As I understand it, the Pit Mine has been resealed. You would have to break the law to see that room. Since the mine was cleaned out, it would be a big risk for little, if any, return.
Take care,

Joe

No worries for me, I do not plan to visit the mine anyway (never did think it was the LDM). :dontknow:

Sarge I agree completely - and have to admit that I too would not mine until I got it all, just enough to finance the rest of the treasure hunts on the agenda will do it for me (and to keep the wolf from the door). I believe that is exactly the kind of person Waltz was - he had several good gold mines in the Bradshaws, did not need to sell them out but could have mined them to "get rich quick" and he did not. Based on his actions I would say he was rather like YOU. And that is an interesting point about the 'curse' which could be the answer, why some people end up hurt or dead, others do not?

Oroblanco
 

Last edited:
Apr 17, 2014
1,973
1,259
Tartarus Dorsa mountains
Primary Interest:
Other
Why would anyone extrapolate some assay from a 'best piece' of unknown origin to to be the representation of an entire deposit of unknown size or location? Assy values are supposed to representative bulk samples, not 'refined' cherry picks.

Wasn't there some other thread that discredited the assay anyway?

Can any link to this wells fargo receipt? If they claim to have not been operating at the time in AZ, that trumps any suppositions without some real hard evidence.
 

Oroblanco

Gold Member
Jan 21, 2005
7,837
9,813
DAKOTA TERRITORY
Detector(s) used
Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
For Joe:

Wells-Fargo-Phoenix-1890.jpg
from Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, October 02, 1890, only one example of many,
and
image_681x648_from_98,4755_to_1831,6405.jpg
from Daily Tombstone epitaph., May 22, 1886

Wells Fargo WAS handling freight in AZ in Waltz's life time. Also there are at least three assayers in Sacramento, which is another option for a place to ship gold ore to, and two other foundries.

Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

H-2 CHARLIE

Bronze Member
Dec 1, 2012
1,204
506
on the rocks - so cal county line
Detector(s) used
Gold bug pro / Minelab GM 1000
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
The size of a barrel and 12- 20 feet deep might be the richest ,smallest mine in the world ?
Im thinking he high graded it from the vulture mine .
 

Apr 17, 2014
1,973
1,259
Tartarus Dorsa mountains
Primary Interest:
Other
What year did he supposedly ship that load of ore?

Died Just after that first ad.

What year did he supposedly last mine and bury it?

If he shipped $250,ooo of ore, containing > 800 pounds (real English US pounds) of gold at the supposed assay percentage of 17% (really all of it that good - on AVERAGE?) it would have weighed over 4700 pounds. Where did he store all that? How many burros did that take?

What did that package look like?

Also there are at least three assayers in Sacramento, which is another option for a place to ship gold ore to, and two other foundries.

I don't think you send tons to be assayed. Refined, sure.

And he just trusts everyone on this deal? So what happened to the $250,000 check?
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Top