LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

[Somero]

NP,

Anyone who has ever stopped for a snack on the bridge into TJ would tell you that cats make excellent tasting tacos.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

A little to greasy and chewy for my taste, better in a stew, otherwise delicioso

Don't forget the Tapatio

 

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[cactusjumper]

Any book recommendations about calalus?

IATH,

Since none of the "experts" have given you a list, here are a few to get you started:

"Calalus....." by Cyclone Covey would be a good book to have. "Caliche in Arizona" by Breazeale & H.V. Smith, If you can find it and "Journal of the Southwest" Volume 51, Number 1.



For another very remote connection, try "Arizona in the '50s by James Tevis.

There are a number of other sources, most of which have been listed in this topic.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Not Peralta wrote

oroblanco, and every one else , I have so many notes on trying to understand this subject let me clarify this right now.the lead artifacts were found near Tucson,they were created and added to by a second person this person could have been in the temple or library,
Im sorry because I get them mixed up with the tablets of the ancients ,that were found in the library complex along with their artifacts .the people of calalus before hiding the library also left artifacts and different items there of their people, sorry for that just too many notes

　
And NP also wrote

repeat, the lead artifacts were not found in the library, it was the tablets of the ancients that were found in the library. thank you

Cactusjumper replied,

NP,

The way you keep coming up with "new" facts, one would think you are being coached by Ben Davis or one of his alter egos.

At this rate, that book will never be done

　
Then my apologies for having wasted your, Starman1's, and everyone else's time examining the case of the lead artifacts and story found on them, along with looking for corroborating evidence to support the story and Calalus artifacts.

So what you and Starman1 have been talking about are a network of tunnels under the Superstition mountains and a library of Atlantis found in them. I have not seen any photos of any tunnel network(s), nor a single 'tablet' or book or scroll etc found and/or recovered from said tunnels. I guess we can completely dismiss the lead artifacts and the information written on them for now then? The information added on to them probably has no relation to the library or Atlantis, correct?
　
Let's examine this portion of the story:

　
1: What language are these Atlantian tablets or books or scrolls or what ever this library is composed of, written in? Is the language Greek or Toltec or what?

2: What kind of alphabet or symbols are written on the tablets (or what ever this library texts are composed on)? Is it Greek, Latin, Babylonian or a different type?

3: How many tablets (or what ever type of texts) were found? If you do not know the exact number, an estimate will do or your best guess.

4: Can you post a photo of the tunnel(s) showing something to indicate it is an ancient library? If not, can you draw a sketch of the tunnel indicating its location?

5: Can you post a photo of one of the tablets or texts found in the tunnels? If not, can you draw a sketch of some of the writing?

6: What made your group conclude that it is beyond doubt Atlantian, and not some native Indian work, like Hohokam or Sinagua?

7: In what direction is the writing composed? Left to right, vertical, etc?

8: What significance are the lead artifacts in relation to these tunnels and tablets, considering the age difference and "added" things on them?

9: Were any dedication(s) to any Atlantian gods/goddesses found in the tunnels?

10: Are we talking about tunnels, which are man-made, or natural caves? Just want to have this point straight.

That is just for starters - for there is very little evidence that Atlantis existed, what has been found rather points to a very different location than the Superstition mountains and Plato's description is vague enough that it can 'fit' many different places, often with some issues however. Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco



　

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

You have never wasted my time. On the other hand, it's my personal opinion that the Calalus story, itself, is a waste of time. The research done trying to support Ben's story has been very rich indeed. As you are aware, we have both been all over the historical map in those endeavors.

Much like BBs historical fantasies, it all leads to fascinating places in real history, and we are all better off for those efforts.

Now these latest efforts coming thru by NP seem like research dead ends. No place to go.

You and Beth will be sorely missed at the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Not Peralta wrote


　
And NP also wrote


Cactusjumper replied,


　
Then my apologies for having wasted your, Starman1's, and everyone else's time examining the case of the lead artifacts and story found on them, along with looking for corroborating evidence to support the story and Calalus artifacts.

So what you and Starman1 have been talking about are a network of tunnels under the Superstition mountains and a library of Atlantis found in them. I have not seen any photos of any tunnel network(s), nor a single 'tablet' or book or scroll etc found and/or recovered from said tunnels. I guess we can completely dismiss the lead artifacts and the information written on them for now then? The information added on to them probably has no relation to the library or Atlantis, correct?
　
Let's examine this portion of the story:

　
1: What language are these Atlantian tablets or books or scrolls or what ever this library is composed of, written in? Is the language Greek or Toltec or what?

2: What kind of alphabet or symbols are written on the tablets (or what ever this library texts are composed on)? Is it Greek, Latin, Babylonian or a different type?

3: How many tablets (or what ever type of texts) were found? If you do not know the exact number, an estimate will do or your best guess.

4: Can you post a photo of the tunnel(s) showing something to indicate it is an ancient library? If not, can you draw a sketch of the tunnel indicating its location?

5: Can you post a photo of one of the tablets or texts found in the tunnels? If not, can you draw a sketch of some of the writing?

6: What made your group conclude that it is beyond doubt Atlantian, and not some native Indian work, like Hohokam or Sinagua?

7: In what direction is the writing composed? Left to right, vertical, etc?

8: What significance are the lead artifacts in relation to these tunnels and tablets, considering the age difference and "added" things on them?

9: Were any dedication(s) to any Atlantian gods/goddesses found in the tunnels?

10: Are we talking about tunnels, which are man-made, or natural caves? Just want to have this point straight.

That is just for starters - for there is very little evidence that Atlantis existed, what has been found rather points to a very different location than the Superstition mountains and Plato's description is vague enough that it can 'fit' many different places, often with some issues however. Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco



　

oroblanco, you bring up very good points. maybe if starman was here he could answer you correctly, I myself have been working on this every chance I get to. I find the history in this is amazing,
and since I have a lot more to work off than you,hopefully someday I will actually figure it all out .or maybe we will. there are too many signs pointing to something unknown to dismiss it because it doesn't fit in. and its not just confined to the supe's, a lot of what starman has to say has merits,if people don't want to check out his story makes no difference to me, because I am going to until I cant no more
and I don't consider it a waste of anyones time except my own.theres too much that comes to light with things that have not been solved. over the years I know for a fact other people have been hunting for something in the same area's and its not anything to do with the lost Dutchman.
np

 

[Oroblanco]

oroblanco, you bring up very good points. maybe if starman was here he could answer you correctly, I myself have been working on this every chance I get to. I find the history in this is amazing,
and since I have a lot more to work off than you,hopefully someday I will actually figure it all out .or maybe we will. there are too many signs pointing to something unknown to dismiss it because it doesn't fit in. and its not just confined to the supe's, a lot of what starman has to say has merits,if people don't want to check out his story makes no difference to me, because I am going to until I cant no more
and I don't consider it a waste of anyones time except my own.theres too much that comes to light with things that have not been solved. over the years I know for a fact other people have been hunting for something in the same area's and its not anything to do with the lost Dutchman.
np

Not Peralta;

I take it then that you are unable or unwilling to answer any of these questions:

1: What language are these Atlantian tablets or books or scrolls or what ever this library is composed of, written in? Is the language Greek or Toltec or what?

2: What kind of alphabet or symbols are written on the tablets (or what ever this library texts are composed on)? Is it Greek, Latin, Babylonian or a different type?

3: How many tablets (or what ever type of texts) were found? If you do not know the exact number, an estimate will do or your best guess.

4: Can you post a photo of the tunnel(s) showing something to indicate it is an ancient library? If not, can you draw a sketch of the tunnel indicating its location?

5: Can you post a photo of one of the tablets or texts found in the tunnels? If not, can you draw a sketch of some of the writing?

6: What made your group conclude that it is beyond doubt Atlantian, and not some native Indian work, like Hohokam or Sinagua?

7: In what direction is the writing composed? Left to right, vertical, etc?

8: What significance are the lead artifacts in relation to these tunnels and tablets, considering the age difference and "added" things on them?

9: Were any dedication(s) to any Atlantian gods/goddesses found in the tunnels?

10: Are we talking about tunnels, which are man-made, or natural caves? Just want to have this point straight.

As you have now made it clear that the lead artifacts of Calalus are rather peripheral, have been doctored or added to by some second, unknown person, their importance is not very great? Why then did you and Starman1 seem to lay so much emphasis on the work of Manier, considering that his unpublished manuscript is focused on those very artifacts?

You state that you have so much more to work with than I do - like what for example? I am fairly certain that you do not know what is in my library, nor what digital documents I have, as I do not know what you have in your library. You have also stated that I have the timeline all wrong - so please now explain the timeline as you understand it, so that we can be on the same page. As in,

Atlantis is destroyed, ~9,500 BC
Library of Oz created ....?
Library is sealed...?

and so on. Thank you in advance.

Joe - Beth and I are still planning on attending, hoping things will work out so that we can make it. The biggest issue is out of our hands so to speak, and I am keeping fingers crossed. May leave the dogs home however as it will be a short trip, which will mean less worry about anyone straying too close to them in camp or kennel. <The friendliest one, Panda, tried to bite the man running the kennel on our last visit, when he tried to handle her despite being asked to just wait and we would get her> In fact even if we do use the Blazer, there won't be nearly so much gear and supplies in it so won't look so much like the Clampetts just came to town. No need for a lot of camp gear, winter clothing, down sleeping bags etc for a short trip.

Your point about how these discussions do get us to dig out the books is valid, our discussions have sure trotted the old memory bank too which needed the exercise. Heck while hunting something up I found an online version of The Narrative of Alvar Nunez Cabeca de Vaca a few nights ago, which I did not own a copy , and it is always a pleasure to re-read Diodorus, Plato, and the other classics. There is evidence of some ancient mystery< or mysteries I should say> in the Superstition mountains, I doubt that Atlantis is involved but perhaps we may find some answers. I still would love to hike up to see Circlestone one of these trips, from what I have read of it, the site may have been built by a people not native to the region. Whether they came from the Old World or not, it represents an unwritten part of the history of the southwest. Never have heard of anyone finding that large cut-stone ditch (Hohokam) found in the early 1900s again either, but do not doubt that it is there somewhere. With all the ancient ball courts dotting southern Arizona, even BB's claim about having seen one is in the realm of possibility.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco ~ Roy

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco. I think with starmans last posting, he did a fine job explaining every thing to you that he could,and Im sure he had to get approval just to do that.I believe every thing you need is there,
he give every one reading his post the best clue you would ever need ,either study what he said or ignore it,its up to you and no one else. I am at a point that if people are not willing to do some of the work themselves, why should I do it for them, I researched this story for years by myself with out help from anyone ,then when I met starman I got the rest of the story and now in my research I can
say without a doubt every thing I researched and believed in was correct . theres a really good fealing in satisfaction . hope you all find satisfaction in what your doing. np

 

[Cubfan64]

NP

I post the maps

View attachment 1040994 View attachment 1040996 View attachment 1040997

Markmar - can you tell us anything about the history of these maps? Who made them? When did you get them? things like that...

 

[Not Peralta]

Cubfan64, I had markmar repost these maps for me, they were posted almost a year ago along with other maps, np

 

[markmar]

Markmar - can you tell us anything about the history of these maps? Who made them? When did you get them? things like that...

Paul

The maps were posted by NP at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/v...c-noss-victorio-peak-caballo-mountains-2.html

 

[Cubfan64]

Thanks for the link - I don't visit any of the other "legend" subsections except on very rare occasions, so I never noticed those postings from a year ago. I'll read through the thread when I have a little more time - thanks again.

I wanted to ask for interpretations and/or ideas related to what is described as being "artifact 13" and the "map" described on it. Below is a copy of a closeup photo of it.

It's described in Bent's manuscript that the 4 corner's denote "somewhat in their relative positions," France, Italy, Britain and Calalus, with Calalus being to the west when the other areas are lined up correctly according to the points of a compass.

I'm not clear on how this lines up?

I realize maps were not terribly accurate in the early days, but how does that map line up correctly? In addition, any idea what the geometric lines signify or mean within the 4 corners? Are they directional or distance related? This same geometric pattern/map appears on the front of artifact 6 without the information in the 4 corner boxes - any thoughts on the significance of this "map."?

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco. I think with starmans last posting, he did a fine job explaining every thing to you that he could,and Im sure he had to get approval just to do that.I believe every thing you need is there,
he give every one reading his post the best clue you would ever need ,either study what he said or ignore it,its up to you and no one else. I am at a point that if people are not willing to do some of the work themselves, why should I do it for them, I researched this story for years by myself with out help from anyone ,then when I met starman I got the rest of the story and now in my research I can
say without a doubt every thing I researched and believed in was correct . theres a really good fealing in satisfaction . hope you all find satisfaction in what your doing. np

If you want people to believe the story, then it is up to you and Starman1 to provide the proof/evidence to back it up. Otherwise it is just another unsubstantiated story.

Glad to hear that you are so satisfied with your research and found everything to be correct. So far we have not been shown much however.
Oroblanco

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco, since starman has already chosen to share the story its not my fault you cannot understand it, there for if he feels it necessary to come back on and explain it again so people can
have a second chance to understand it, that's up to starman, its not up to me,i know the story, I am not the one that just posted the story. every one had a chance to talk to starman when he was
posting. the proof is right in front of you. don't take someone elses word about the lead artifacts research them yourself. listen to starmans story, then study the lead artifacts and the stone tablets and every thing else that pertains to them, the answer is there. ,you are not the determining factor of whether this story is true or not, and you do not speak for every one else, you can only speak for yourself, go with your own intuitions, np ps. just for your sake, I hope starman comes back and explains every thing one more time.

 

[markmar]

Cubfan64

I want to give my exlanation about this picture



This map is carved between two swords ( up and down to the right ) and i believe represent of what nationalities their army was composed . So , the map describes how a small percent was from SE Mediterranean and NE France , and the most percent was from Anglo - Saxon and Celtics regions . The left down square is empty which means they have not army from SW Europe .
I believe the expedition have used priests and leaders ( the first Greek and the other Hebrews ) with their guard from the Byzantine Empire ( this explain the Patriarchal cross as a political symbol on the artifacts ) , and army , some Christianized Celts ( this explain the Christian Celtic cross - the artifact with the snake ) and many Anglo - Saxon and maybe some Norse mercenaries ( this explain the battle axes on the artifacts ) . Don't forget how the Anglo - Saxons had many women warriors which was not common in the Roman and Byzantine empires .

Was an expedition to conquer or die . Maybe for this the Byzantine Empire have used a fiercest but expendable army in this first and maybe the last expedition .

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco, since starman has already chosen to share the story its not my fault you cannot understand it, there for if he feels it necessary to come back on and explain it again so people can
have a second chance to understand it, that's up to starman, its not up to me,i know the story, I am not the one that just posted the story. every one had a chance to talk to starman when he was
posting. the proof is right in front of you. don't take someone elses word about the lead artifacts research them yourself. listen to starmans story, then study the lead artifacts and the stone tablets and every thing else that pertains to them, the answer is there. ,you are not the determining factor of whether this story is true or not, and you do not speak for every one else, you can only speak for yourself, go with your own intuitions, np ps. just for your sake, I hope starman comes back and explains every thing one more time.

You seem to have extrapolated a great deal from a few sentences.

Where did I say that I do not understand this? Do you suppose that I or Cactusjumper Joe do not do any research? The problem is that what I have found in research, is at odds with the stories presented by Starman1 and yourself. Solid evidence would help your case far more than explaining. I will repeat:


How about some photos of the library, tunnels, tablets?


What about documentary support for the exodus of people from the Old World, whether from Rome or Byzantium or Samaria or what ever was the point of departure? I do not care if the record is Muslim or Christian, or even a legend like St Brendan or Madoc, do you have any such supporting record or legend?


I presume that you, or someone in your group, must have taken photographs of the various discoveries for their historic preservation; is there any reason why you can not post a few? If you do not wish anyone to know the exact location, you can crop the photos so as to remove landmarks.

Thank you in advance;

Oroblanco

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco, let me remind you again, I am not a part of starmans group. and if you have questions , you need to ask starman. np

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco, let me remind you again, I am not a part of starmans group. and if you have questions , you need to ask starman. np

So I take it then that you do NOT have a single photo of any of the tablets, tunnels or library? Also that you do not have any supporting record or even a legend from the Old World, which would help to corroborate the story as presented by Starman1 and supported by you?

NP do you believe that Atlantis is linked to the supposed tablets, library and tunnels in the Superstitions? If so, why? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco. you wrote, np do you believe that atlantis is linked to the supposed tablets, library and tunnels in the superstitions? , a very small section of it is,
but its in two different locations in the range,both are tunnel systems, the reason you cant find any sign over the years is every thing was kept under ground.
Starmans group has been guarding these sites for over a thousand years, there group have been over here off and on a lot of years, before the 1900's when different people
in the group would come over they always got directions off of the home maps,the lead artifacts, you have to know what the symbol " 0" means, not what you think it means.
np I have to make me some

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco. you wrote,

np do you believe that atlantis is linked to the supposed tablets, library and tunnels in the superstitions?

, a very small section of it is,
but its in two different locations in the range,both are tunnel systems, the reason you cant find any sign over the years is every thing was kept under ground.
Starmans group has been guarding these sites for over a thousand years, there group have been over here off and on a lot of years, before the 1900's when different people
in the group would come over they always got directions off of the home maps,the lead artifacts, you have to know what the symbol " 0" means, not what you think it means.
np I have to make me some

Are you sure that I can't find any sign over the years? I have seen definite evidence that someone was doing some work in the Superstitions centuries ago, and I am sure others have found much more over the years like the cave/tunnel with a spiral staircase going down. Never have seen that personally, but would if I knew where it was and had the time. I have seen steps carved into a canyon wall, stone walls, trails cut into bedrock that end in a sheer cliff, in a number of locations in the north and eastern end of the Superstitions. The issue is who or whom was working in the Superstitions, not that there is no evidence to be seen.

On the other hand, one of the sites Starman1 insisted that I would see all kinds of proof of Calalus, Fish creek canyon, I saw nothing that looked like ancient workings/ruins nor even any old small garden plots, which I expected to see. I was not really looking for that kind of thing however so could have walked right past it.

As to the O or Omicron, it is not just ME that believes the O symbol is not an Omega but an Omicron, that is the general consensus of historians, not just my personal opinion or belief. The name of the letter means 'small o' literally, and traces to Phoenician letter Ayin (O) which means "eye". Wiki has this interesting tidbit on Omicron:

In popular culture[edit]
Omicron is frequently used to designate the fifteenth star in a constellation group, using a combination of magnitude and position.[1] Stars with the omicron designation include Omicron Andromedae, Omicron Ceti, and Omicron Persei. The last of these is well-known due to its use as a setting in science fiction, including Star Trek, Mystery Science Theater 3000, Transformers, and Futurama.

It is also the number 70 in the Greek number system, or the same number in the Phoenician number system.

I would think the Omicron is just as mysterious and has as much hidden meaning(s) as Omega, or heck if taken in Phoenician, it combines the meaning "70", or "eye", either of which could have a hidden/mysterious aspect connected to it.

Why do you think this "O" stands for Omega in Atlantian? O is the endless circle, without beginning OR END, infinity, or the more obscure "doctrine of the sphere"; the "circle of the Earth" alluded to by the ancients; it is not logical as a symbol for Omega which is END. You neglected to answer why you believe Atlantis is linked to those sites in the Superstitions, can you explain that or is it beyond the understanding of us mortals? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

PS Coffee did you say? I think I need a refill myself!

[h=2][/h]

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco. I did not neglect anything, np