LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

Apr 17, 2014
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Not sure what you mean Oro, but clearly this place was some sort of melting pot before the latest wave of Euros and what not arrived to find a 'new' continent of only 'native american' savages, and make it the current bowl of soup. The strange thing is why did none of those other cultures 'stick'? Why did our wave of newcomers find only the old DNA fingerprints? All the more technologically advanced and farmers were slaughtered?
 

Somero

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Pre-Columbian influence from across the Atlantic would be like adding a pinch of Salt to a 10 gallon pot of stew. The reason Native culture did not rise to the advancement of other parts of the world is no horses. Once horses arrived you see a dynamic change in many Native cultures and redistribution of territories, some groups gaining larger areas forcing others to move.

If horses had been here long before the Europeans arrived thing may have gone different, who knows, possibly Native Americans discovering Europe.

That is why I made the remark about horse remains with the car battery lead. If an advanced culture moved here they would have had horses and other domestic animals. There is no such evidence of this in pre-columbian time.
 

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Springfield

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Pre-Columbian influence from across the Atlantic would be like adding a pinch of Salt to a 10 gallon pot of stew. The reason Native culture did not rise to the advancement of other parts of the world is no horses. Once horses arrived you see a dynamic change in many Native cultures and redistribution of territories, some groups gaining larger areas forcing others to move.

If horses had been here long before the Europeans arrived thing may have gone different, who knows, possibly Native Americans discovering Europe.

That is why I made the remark about horse remains with the car battery lead. If an advanced culture moved here they would have had horses and other domestic animals. There is no such evidence of this in pre-columbian time.

Lack of knowledge is what holds back man's cultural achievements.

Horses are a tool, but the New World had no indigenous horses since the end of the Pleistocene Age - the animals being reintroduced with the Spanish Conquest. However, despite a lack of horses, it can be argued that significent human cultural advancement did indeed occur in a number of New World venues. The Spanish's shock at Tenochtitlan's sophistication, our own respect for the Mayan's cosmology and the world's wonderment of a dozen other stunning archeological sites in Central/South America prove that point. None of these obviously knowledgeable cultures had horses.

They did have plenty of knowledge though, and it seems likely that knowledge wasn't home grown, but was given to them by persons whom we can't yet identify conclusively. Based on a boatload of cultural, symbology and architectural similarities, and New World traditions, the New World cultural knowledge came from points east. The North American story isn't as clear, although the Mound Builders in the South and Midwest left lots of intriguing artifacts that were frequently plowed up by farmers, then dismissed by experts as frauds. Here in the Southwest, most of the ruins are basicly crude. Chaco is an exception - I tend to buy the idea that it was a temporary stop for migrating Aztecs who may have begun their journey at Cahokia, a site with similarities to Central American sites.

That said, what about the questions oldpueblo raised? I have a lot of ideas about the subject, but these are my quick-and-dirty opinions:
1) I think there are secret hidden sites in the Southwest. Any 'information' released about them, in any manner (introduction of fake artifacts, disposition of genuine artifacts, discovery of maps, testimony of individuals, etc.) is done to obfuscate the truth and misdirect the curious. Many, many of the 'treasure clues' and gold legends surfaced in the 1930's.
2) Nobody outside the tightly controlled Organization, which owns and controls the sites, will ever be given knowledge of them.
3) It's all about diversion - the clues, the carvings, the legends, all of it. The Organization allows the curious to run in circles away from their sites. Waltz may possibly have been an Organization man. IMO, trying to understand the 'Calalus/Oz' stuff posted on these threads is a waste of your time.

These are my opinions only and can't be proven.
 

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oldpueblo

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There have been some very interesting posts on this thread. I would like to do more research on the Tucson artifacts as I do not know enough to draw a conclusion yet.

Sgtfda-Unfortunately the other stones that have not been made public I'm sure are only allowed to be viewed by a very small group of people.

Not Peralta-How sure are you that you know the exact location of the other tablets? If it's not too far in, I do not have a problem putting boots on the ground. The computer, and GE are great research tools but nothing compares to seeing things first hand.
 

Somero

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My thought is necessity is the mother of invention. Despite not having domesticated animals Native cultures were able to advance much the same as other cultures that had them, just on a smaller scale. Domestic animals allowed much larger areas to be farmed, allowed faster communication over larger distances and provided readily available food that did not require hunting. Thus a larger human population. In the America's large population centers were present, however these empires/territories were much smaller than what is found in Eurasia.

If you are moving your culture to another area I would think that bringing your animals along would be the same as bringing your language, these domestic animals are part of your culture which has grown dependent on them. I think the Mongol Empire would be a good example of cultural dependance on domestic animals.

Since many of these stories seem to arise in the 1930's I think it important to consider what was going on in the world, especially in the U.S. People were desperate and the story of lost treasure and getting rich quick would be very enticing. Also by the 30's many of these stories were at least second hand information, and becoming clouded with details from other stories.

So unless there is some indisputable proof of an advanced civilization from across the Atlantic, My Opinion is that it's European Ego that "savages" would not have been capable of doing that.

Just My Opinions
 

cactusjumper

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There have been some very interesting posts on this thread. I would like to do more research on the Tucson artifacts as I do not know enough to draw a conclusion yet.

Sgtfda-Unfortunately the other stones that have not been made public I'm sure are only allowed to be viewed by a very small group of people.

Not Peralta-How sure are you that you know the exact location of the other tablets? If it's not too far in, I do not have a problem putting boots on the ground. The computer, and GE are great research tools but nothing compares to seeing things first hand.

oldpueblo,

Here is one book on the subject:

Calalus - AbeBooks

Two others that are a little harder to find are:

Journal of the Southwest Volume 51, #1 and Caliche in Arizona by, J.F. Breazeale

You might also look here:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tucson_artifacts

Joe Ribaudo
 

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Not Peralta

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oldpueblo, with a 4x4 you would have no problem, people in the past never had a problem driving right up to the location. the directions are on my thread. the degrazia map is also the
directions to them. once you get to the location its easy to figure out. good luck.also if sgtfda didn't get there first, then you should be the first one there,all it requires is getting the directions and actually going to look. np:cat:
 

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oldpueblo

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Thank you for the reading recommendations, I'll look into that.
Unfortunately, my pickup s only a 2 wheel drive.
 

Oroblanco

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Somero - how many horses did the Norse bring to their colonies in America?

On the Calalus artifacts - there was an area in Spain known as Calalus. Coincidence?

The route of the army led directly across the fatal field. As they traversed the elevated plain of Calaluz, the soldiers saw everywhere around the traces of the fight. The ground was still covered with fragments of rusty armor bits of broken sword blades and heads of spears. More touching evidence was afforded by the bones of men and horses which in this solitary region had been whitening in the blasts of seventy winters . The Spaniards knew well the localities with which they had become familiar from boyhood in the legends and traditions of the country.
History of the reign of Philip the Second, King of Spain, Volume 3, Prescott pp 232-233

Interesting, no?

I don't suppose that we will ever know exactly who/whom created the Calalus artifacts. :dontknow:
 

Somero

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Oro, i couldn't tell ya how many horses the Norse brought, one thing is for sure, even these small Norse colonies would know to bring their own livestock to the BBQ.

As for Calalus, you have a very large group moving across the Atlantic to build a city in the desert so it would only makes sense that they would bring livestock with them,after all the local wildlife may not be Kosher or easy to catch or even very abundant to support that many people.

The other point that makes no sense to me is why abandon your ships, which would be a valuable resource, and set out on foot. Big risk with that many people that need food and water, why not settle close to where you landed like most other cultures when they colonize. After all if they came from the Mediterranean and would understand coastal life.

Just my rambling opinion.
 

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Oroblanco

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Somero wrote
Oro, i couldn't tell ya how many horses the Norse brought, one thing is for sure, even these small Norse colonies would know to bring their own livestock to the BBQ.

As for Calalus, you have a very large group moving across the Atlantic to build a city in the desert so it would only makes sense that they would bring livestock with them,after all the local wildlife may not be Kosher or easy to catch or even very abundant to support that many people.

The other point that makes no sense to me is why abandon your ships, which would be a valuable resource, and set out on foot. Big risk with that many people that need food and water, why not settle close to where you landed like most other cultures when they colonize. After all if they came from the Mediterranean and would understand coastal life.

Just my rambling opinion

Sound reasoning amigo, and please don't get the idea that I believe the Calalus artifacts to be authentic nor accept the story line from them. However just was trying to point out that modern assumptions are not always what ancient people would do, like the concept of bringing horses which as you pointed out, were a major cultural factor providing mobility, work animals etc far superior to just man power alone. The Norse brought zero horses to Vinland BTW. Columbus brought zero on his first voyage for that matter. Many ancient sea voyages carried no livestock, just grains and salted/pickled meats for supplies, and strange to say but even some colonies were not supplied with livestock when first established for some reason(s), like Kerne as one example (no livestock mentioned for any of Hanno's colonies in fact) but in that case the people may have been political 'enemies' of the govt so were kind of cast out as a punishment. <Reported by Aristotle, and also happened with some Greek city states, sending out colonies of political malcontents helped preserve the status quo and open new commerce etc>

The story of Calalus as a Roman/Brit/Samaritan/Jewish colony or mini empire in the southwest does not make a lot of sense to me; however I have to leave the door open a little for the possibility for there is quite a bit of evidence that people were crossing the oceans even in the BC era, including one documented colonizing attempt. Had the person(s) whom created the Calalus artifacts made the story of some political outcasts from Carthage, maybe mentioned Hanno or Himilco, dated it to say 500 BC period, I would probably looking at them with a very different eye. However the Calalus artifacts include dates in the 700s AD (even using Anno Domini, which was not in use in that time period) when seafaring abilities of Mediterranean peoples were very inferior to later periods AND earlier periods, most peoples even held a widespread fear of the Atlantic ocean, makes the whole story very questionable right off the bat. In that kind of scenario as the voyages of Hanno, the colonists would not have 'owned' the ships that carried them to their outcast destination, they would be dropped off with what ever the govt allowed them to have and this might or might not include any livestock. No such story is in the Calalus artifacts.

One last bit on the livestock angle, but the early Spanish explorers reported that some Amerindians had sheep; they were 'hair sheep' that produced no wool, and modern historians ignore this entirely, but where did these sheep come from? There are hair sheep native to North Africa BTW. Many tribes were also reported to have chickens - and chickens are native to India, so how did Amerindians living in the desert southwest, get chickens, long before any Spaniards arrived? Not saying this is proof of Calalus either, just that the clues are there for some level of contact going on, possibly thousands of years ago.

Please do continue amigos;
Oroblanco
 

Somero

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Oro, I agree that contact was quite possible from either the Atlantic or Pacific, how much? We may never know.

I believe one of oldpueblo's concerns was the alleged "gatekeepers" and I was pointing out some of what I believe are the basic flaws with the existence of Calalus in the New World, especially since no other traces of civilization were found with the artifacts, at least not to my knowledge. I'll admit my investigation into the whole story would be cursory at best since, in my opinion, it fails the basic common sense point of view. However if indisputable evidence, say Mediterranean type structures with human remains with DNA linking them to the Mediterranean, I would probably change my point of view. So as far as "gatekeepers" most likely someone or a group of someones who are bored and have a skewed sense of humor..................my opinion of people dissuading others from finding the truth and perpetuating lies would not be appropriate for public viewing.

I digress on the domestic issue, I forgot about chickens. Looks like the DNA results from the Pacific Islands is up in the air despite evidence they may have not come from the Pacific side. Also llamas, alpacas and of course the ever faithful dog, so some domestication happening prior to major European contact.
 

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oldpueblo

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I did not know about the sheep or the chickens, good points. I really like Somero's opinion on people dissuading others from finding the truth. :icon_thumleft:
Has anyone had any experience with gatekeepers or those posing as such? Either on or offline, or in the mountains?
 

Oroblanco

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Just want to add that contact in ancient times does not equate to Roman legions trooping around the desert southwest. What evidence exists, points to sporadic, non-large-scale type contact. Chickens are one of the big problems with the Isolation theory (how exactly did the Amerindians get chickens? The birds are native to India, and just suddenly appear in the archaeological record in the Americas - no wild chickens in the Americas for them to get domesticated) there are other products like cotton, tobacco, sweet potatoes, even peanuts and corn, or purple dye, which prove some level of contact was taking place. Not however, wholesale, regular contact, where the evidence would be huge like Roman ruins or Egyptian pyramids.

As to gatekeepers etc I am very far from convinced there is anything to that. The ancient people whom lived in Arizona, did not survive to have left any watchers or gatekeepers etc. They were gone by the time the Spaniards arrived. :dontknow:
 

Not Peralta

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OROBLANCO, I believe there are some private enterprises that would love to convince people to believe just as you do. people just seem to keep getting in their way on their recovery efforts.
today when it comes to talking finds and area's of interest you would really be surprised at who's watching and who's listening just for that little bit of info. np:cat: time for that :coffee2:
 

Oroblanco

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OROBLANCO, I believe there are some private enterprises that would love to convince people to believe just as you do. people just seem to keep getting in their way on their recovery efforts.
today when it comes to talking finds and area's of interest you would really be surprised at who's watching and who's listening just for that little bit of info. np:cat: time for that :coffee2:

I don't doubt that there are folks whom watch the treasure forums for tidbits of info, often never posting.

As to a colony of Roman/Samaritans in ancient Tucson - :dontknow: I was not there at the time so sure do not know the answer. I have no doubt that people from the Old World were traveling through the southwest, in ancient times, and by Old World I include China (the land of Fu Sang written by a Chinese monk) but the evidence only points to a very ephemeral presence not an attempted colony. At least what I have seen so far.

Coffee did you say? :notworthy: :coffee2: :hello2: :thumbsup: Muchas gracias, don't mind if I do!
 

Somero

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I did not know about the sheep or the chickens, good points. I really like Somero's opinion on people dissuading others from finding the truth. :icon_thumleft:
Has anyone had any experience with gatekeepers or those posing as such? Either on or offline, or in the mountains?

oldpueblo, unfortunately Treasure Hunters can be a paranoid lot, while some are forthcoming with information and quite cordial and open minded and willing to help (just don't expect them to tell you where they think it is) there are others who would prefer to cloud the issue. I'm sure this is quite evident on these forums, members using multiple names and attacking others just for the benefit of discrediting them. I have been on occasion a bit aggressive when trying to find the truth in some matters, this was mainly from some folks making statements of fact which turned out to be inaccurate possibly due to misinformation provided to them. So I guess we could consider this group of misinformers as "gatekeepers" for whatever reason or personal agenda, we may never truly know. The likelihood of an ancient group or even government coverup to me seems far fetched, but would suit others quite nicely in trying to further their cause of deception.
 

cactusjumper

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Eric,

Anyone who has done any serious/thorough research into the Tucson/Calalus Artifacts can form an intelligent opinion as to their authenticity. Having spent the time and money to do my own research, I have come to the conclusion that the entire story is a fabrication. Original source is unknown.

Take care,

Joe
 

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