LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

[Springfield]

by Oro:
Springfield; I half expected you were going to bring up the supposed finding of the faker's signature on the Kensington stone, which was "Found" by the same method in which you can find the signature of Shakespeare on this page. What new evidence/findings are you referring to? Thank you in advance. <For our readers, no I do not accept that the Kensington stone is a fake, nor that it has any signature on it.>

No, that argument is pathetic, IMO. It's still my opinion that the KRS is likely an authentic engraving and that Olof Ohman had nothing to do with its creation.

What I'm referring to is the placement of the stone prior to Ohman's discovery in 1898. It's readily apparent that the KRS's coordinates occupy a node on certain geometrical patterns whose other nodes are also significant locations - significant for simple reasons not readily obvious without knowing what to look for. Using simple cartographic methods such as azimuth projections, etc., creates a remarkably precise web intersecting well-known and lesser-known alleged treasure sites in North America and elsewhere in the world. This cartographic web is extensive and has nothing to do with Scott Wolter's published findings regarding the runestone. It's not my work, but I've seen many of the details. The KRS location is only one of many significant connected nodes. It's bewildering.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Starman 1, Ben Davis, Starman, Klondike......et al,

I have read the Bent Manuscript, as well as just about every other writing on the Tucson Artifacts. I go back and reread them on occasion. I remain unconvinced. You seem to believe we are all just intellectually incapable of seeing the truth.....as you see it.

As I have written before, just send/post some pictures of Oz, the treasures or the library. Since it is no longer accessible, and the artifacts are now in Africa, and your work here has been "done", repeated over and over again for many years now, there seems little harm that could be done to prove your assertions.

Your efforts to make us all believers over the years could culminate in such a revelation. Your work would truly be done.

Roy,

I have been trading e-mails with Ben, in all his various masks, since Late 49er first came on the LDM Forum. In addition to that, I called Ben at his office and talked for quite awhile. I agree that he is a highly intelligent man and gives the impression that he truly believes the story.

Just the locations/depths of the artifacts at Silverbell places their authenticity in serious doubt. Beyond that, the word for word plagiarism of the existing Latin texts goes beyond coincidence.

Take care,

Joe

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Gentlemen:

Hello Roy:

Again I wish you well and hope that your book will be a success. Having thought more about your posts I would like to make a suggestion that I only hinted about previously. That is there is a history out there that all of us can access through books and the internet, but that history is generally not on the cutting edge of what is known, it reflects what is only poorly known. Real history comes from getting your hands dirty and discovering what has always been there in Eldorado Canyon, The Canyon of the Souls, Circlestone, Snaketown. Even a trip to Hidden Mountain will reveal things that up to now have not been reported. It is from this type of activity that real history is born. Before one can dismiss the Tucson Artifacts one must hold them and try to imagine what all of this is about. Why you may ask? Simply because you can.

If you cannot do these things then remember that what you are doing is similar to folks using Google earth to find the LDM. Things are far different up there than on the ground. Roy states:

"Keep in mind that I live over 1000 miles from Arizona, and am not willing to trek into an ancient Hohokam or Sinagua Amerindian ruin(s) that is being proposed as Roman Calalus, I want to see some Old World record of this exodus".

It is not that records do not exist they do. What is importent is to do the groundwork that prepares one self for the possibility of seeing them.

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

I was preparing this when I noticed your post. Well we can agree on one thing it is not me that is relying on the testimony of dead folks to prove the artifacts are not real. Channeling is such a suspect way of obtaining evidence. At least Edger Cayce was alive.

I believe the reason we have continued to post is not that you are not intellectually capable of seeing the finish line. The problem is you want to be carried over it. Some have jogged over the finish line why should we lower the bar for you?

A tip of the hat to you for visiting the artifacts.

Perhaps instead of whining about what has not been given simply take what has been given and figure it out. This I would call the sgtfda paradigm.

Good luck to you Mr. Ribaudo.


Starman

 

[somehiker]

A Cold Trail

Romans in Tucson? the Story of an Archaeological Hoax - Journal of the Southwest | HighBeam Research

 

[Somero]

O.K. so the claim is history shattering evidence that will rewrite the books and yet everybody in the world needs to go to these sites and look for themselves. I would think after the first couple thousand people nothing would be left. I would think such evidence would be provided in some scientific journal with irrefutable proof so as to protect such sites.

I would say its not "lowering the bar" for us commoners, but preserving history so us commoners can enjoy and learn from it, after all some of the greatest minds throughout history have shared their findings so the rest of mankind can benefit. Otherwise lets gets some dynamite and start blasting holes in the mountains again and see what we can find.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos;
This reply is extremely long, as there are so many points to address. I must ask your indulgence once again, thank you in advance and to anyone wishing to simply skip the whole thing, no offense taken.

Starman1 wrote

Hello Roy,

Have you ever read Bent's work, "The Tucson Artifacts"?

No.

Starman1 also wrote

Roy, what you are referencing is one of the most important moments in the history of our people. Every year I teach a class to our young people in South Africa when they reach a certain age. The lesson they take from this incident speaks to the humanity in each of us. That at such a time of great suffering and trials the decision was made to dump the holy for something that is far more precious human life.

I hope that you are not teaching the Calalus story to students as an historic event. One might as well add Paul Bunyan as part of the curriculum if Calalus is included. As to dumping the "holy" to save human lives, consider how the ancient Hebrews were willing to give up their lives to protect the Ark of the Covenant. A part of the Christian/Judeo belief system is that we are not to fear those whom can kill the body, rather we should fear only that which can kill the soul. Hence the massacre of so many thousands of Christians in the arena for the amusement of Roman emperors like Nero. This suggests that the Calalus artifacts were far from being considered "holy" relics.

　
Starman1 also wrote

I suspected you were looking for the truth not writing a book. To suggest that the survivors of the holocast that befell the people could even be discussed with the same breath as the Nazi`s is simply breathtaking. That so many of our people died to preserve the holy and so many people sacrificed so much to keep it safe speaks to the integrity and depth of our belief in the decency in each human being. At the end of my class each year I tell our young people the story of where the phrase, "may the stars keep you safe" comes from. The man who carved that simple statement on a cave wall as he died in the Canyon of the Souls, was a remarkable man. His decision to stay and fight was a commitment to decency and a respect for the holy. Years later when his remains were buried in a cemetary in South Africa his descendants would look at your comments for what they are shameful.

Can you not see the direct parallels of your story and beliefs, to the mythical Aryan "history" as constructed by the Nazis? Complete with the "special" people and descendants. This kind of thing is a dangerous path to start down, and can end badly. Shameful indeed!

　
I would ask what is so dishonorable about writing a book, which in itself can be a quest for truth, but we have much more to cover.

　
Starman1 also wrote

One should give Plutarch great credit but did Plato finish his work? Yes he did. The proof is out there. You will not find it on the internet or on e-bay.

You have stated that you have a copy of this "unpublished" portion of Critias; why not post it publicly? Do you fear that it will quickly be proven a forgery?
While I do use the internet for research, (it can be a very useful tool) it is hardly my only option. It is much easier to cut and paste than to hand-copy whole sections of books, which BTW I also own, and if I had not read the books, how would I know where to look for the relevant passages? Your attempt to denigrate my research does not add weight to your argument for a real Calalus.

Starman1 also wrote

Perhaps you should look again at my post. Calalus was the name given to the new world by the explorers from Atlantis. The more modern adventurers simply piggybacked on the name since they were aware of it from the descriptions given in the Critias. I would not expect tridents to be mentioned in the Timaeus since the subject matter of the Timaeus would not suggest it being mentioned.

You are the one whom tagged the trident as a symbol of Atlantis, and the main source on Atlantis is Plato's two dialogues Timaeus and Critias. The other sources, Diodorus, Theopompus and others, have even less information and having read all of them I do not recall ever seeing the trident mentioned in connection with Atlantis in any of them. So where do you say the name CALALUS originates? You also stated that the name Calalus came from this "unpublished portion" from Plato, so now I ask you to prove that assertion by posting the relevant passages, thank you in advance in both instances.

　
Starman1 also wrote

So you believe all that was left was graffiti. Interesting.

Is that what I wrote? Perhaps you need to go back and re-read what I posted?

Starman1 wrote

Whether or not you put your stamp of approval on them changes well nothing. If you find them questionable that is your right. One thing that has struck me in all of this is a lack of engagement on the specifics regarding the artifacts. For example:

I had set aside the questionable Latin and the caliche for the moment, to address the whole story. The lack of engagement on specifics seems to emanate from your end of this discussion, like the supposed "unpublished portion" of Critias as an example, or where the trident is shown to be a symbol of Atlantis? Were we to delve into the issues of the caliche in which the artifacts were found, we would then have to explain how the artifacts were found in layers of caliche that were not just 900 years old but thousands of years TOO old? I do not care whether MY opinion changes anything for you, but I do value my own credibility.

　
Starman1 also wrote

Keep in mind that respected folks in the scientific community believe these are the real deal and acquaint yourself with their efforts. One should not dismiss the efforts of Covey nor the beliefs of Hardaker that both believe the artifacts were not planted. In all fairness Hardaker believes the artifacts were not planted but were not a relic of a Roman/Jewish Community referred to as Calalus.

I have respect for professor Covey, but can not agree with him. On the other hand, you seem to have NO respect for any of the scholars whom have concluded the Calalus artifacts are modern fakes. Does it not raise any questions for you that Dr Barry Fell, a widely known diffusionist, disagreed with Covey and concluded the Calalus artifacts were modern? Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with Fell's efforts?

Starman1 also wrote

Perhaps as a starting point consider where there is agreement. Calalus no longer exists this we can all agree. As to whether it ever did should be for you an open question. True scholarship will be uncomfortable but it will open a gate that might amaze you.

Well then we are at loggerheads, for the very statement "Calalus NO LONGER EXISTS" is stating that it did once. I am very far from convinced that it ever existed, certainly, in America, at all. I have tried to allow you the greatest possible latitude in presenting your argument(s), and while I am a firm believer that keeping an open mind is an absolute must for finding the truth, too many of the issues around Calalus are not addressed, much less explained like why it is an 'island' of evidence rather than a "shotgun pattern' as is the case with most of the other pre-Columbian visits to America. Ancient Amerindian ruins in the Superstitions are evidence of native peoples, not Romans.

Starman1 also wrote

Having said this if you are only interested in proving a hoax I can only smile and wish you well. If you are interested in finding the truth you may or not succeed but you will be better for the journey. For us Calalus, the Library of Oz, and the Canyon of Souls are very, very real. If what you discover takes you down a different trail that is fine. Go there in good spirit.

True history is an adventure that starts with what is out there not what is in here. I have suggested to you where you might find the truth. At the end of the day there is more truth in Fish Creek Canyon than every piece of evidence you have presented.

I have explored Fish Creek canyon, and have seen nothing there that points to any Roman presence, nor for that matter much of an Amerindian presence for that matter. I am very far from being "only interesting in proving an hoax"; I wish to honor, and bring to light, the real accomplishments of ancient explorers who came to America. Calalus does not meet the bar, I am afraid. I do leave the door open however, but it is going to take more than cryptic references to sources not available to the public and trying to see ancient Amerindian ruins as Romans. How did the Calalus colonists escape from Europe/Mediterranean, which was largely in a Dark Age at the time, passing through the Arab empire? Did they simply decide that Plato's story of a continent was true, and Strabo's Geography, the standard for geography for centuries, had it all wrong?

The Romans and Byzantines were not exactly great mariners in their day. How many expeditions of exploration and colonization were sent out by Rome, or the Byzantine empire, do you know? In those cases where they did send out ships, were they not in every case, simply following in the tracks of earlier Greek or Phoenician seafarers, as with the example of Polybius or even Caesar's expedition into Britain, following where Pytheas had gone centuries before? Even Pliny the Elder complained that the art of seafaring had so declined in his own day, that previous centuries mariners had surpassed his own time. Perhaps if you were to read Ora Maritima by Rufus Festus Avienus, you might question whether any Roman ships would even have been able to cross the Atlantic in the eighth century AD.

　
You seem to dismiss what I posted out of hand, in the very manner you have accused me of doing by the way. It does not impress me that you toss out Strabo as if I had just made it up.

As this discussion continues to follow the same route as it did for years on another forum, I don't see anything to pursue. Let me ask you a question Starman, do you agree that there are and have been FAKES purporting to be evidence of ancient visitors to America? Have you kept your mind open to the possibility that the Calalus artifacts are modern fakes? I do not get that impression from any of your posts.

I hope you can prove that there was a real Roman Calalus, I really do. I am convinced that people were coming to America long before Columbus, but we must also beware of the phonies and hoaxes, which only serve to discredit the true voyages of Phoenicians, Greeks, Chinese and even Arabs. I do not expect that all of academia must proclaim the Calalus artifacts as genuine to convince me, but some of these questions must be answered and not with suggestions to go a-hiking, regardless of how beautiful the Superstitions truly are.

　
My apologies to everyone for this extremely long post, I will try to keep things shorter in future. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco
　
　



　
　
　



　
　

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen:

Hello Roy:

Again I wish you well and hope that your book will be a success. Having thought more about your posts I would like to make a suggestion that I only hinted about previously. That is there is a history out there that all of us can access through books and the internet, but that history is generally not on the cutting edge of what is known, it reflects what is only poorly known. Real history comes from getting your hands dirty and discovering what has always been there in Eldorado Canyon, The Canyon of the Souls, Circlestone, Snaketown. Even a trip to Hidden Mountain will reveal things that up to now have not been reported. It is from this type of activity that real history is born. Before one can dismiss the Tucson Artifacts one must hold them and try to imagine what all of this is about. Why you may ask? Simply because you can.

If you cannot do these things then remember that what you are doing is similar to folks using Google earth to find the LDM. Things are far different up there than on the ground. Roy states:

"Keep in mind that I live over 1000 miles from Arizona, and am not willing to trek into an ancient Hohokam or Sinagua Amerindian ruin(s) that is being proposed as Roman Calalus, I want to see some Old World record of this exodus".

It is not that records do not exist they do. What is importent is to do the groundwork that prepares one self for the possibility of seeing them.

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

I was preparing this when I noticed your post. Well we can agree on one thing it is not me that is relying on the testimony of dead folks to prove the artifacts are not real. Channeling is such a suspect way of obtaining evidence. At least Edger Cayce was alive.

I believe the reason we have continued to post is not that you are not intellectually capable of seeing the finish line. The problem is you want to be carried over it. Some have jogged over the finish line why should we lower the bar for you?

A tip of the hat to you for visiting the artifacts.

Perhaps instead of whining about what has not been given simply take what has been given and figure it out. This I would call the sgtfda paradigm.

Good luck to you Mr. Ribaudo.


Starman

Well, in my limited vision, the finish line could only be a future book. No other reasonable answer for your years of pounding us with this story for all that time.

Remember, I have been involved in this story since you started hawking it over on the LDM Forum. I did research the story from every angle, including Bent's. I have run my own race for information on this matter, no one has carried me.

If you think I am "whining" about what has been promised, and never delivered, you are in error. I am only pointing out the facts which reveal the Ben Davis deceptions.

Good luck to you,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Gentlemen:

Hello Roy,

I do recommend you read Bent`s work, "The Tucson Artifacts" before you attempt to pass judgment on the artifacts. Particularly so if you are going to write a book and include them in your effort. If you are not going to read the work I recommend you simply leave out any reference to the artifacts. I really don`t see how anyone can discuss the Tucson Artifacts without first aquainting themselves with such a pivotal work.

I would again like to respond to you posts and will simply post what seems relevent and respond. In this instance I will reference my previous comments also.
Roy:

Starman1 also wrote:

Roy, what you are referencing is one of the most important moments in the history of our people. Every year I teach a class to our young people in South Africa when they reach a certain age. The lesson they take from this incident speaks to the humanity in each of us. That at such a time of great suffering and trials the decision was made to dump the holy for something that is far more precious human life.


"I hope that you are not teaching the Calalus story to students as an historic event. One might as well add Paul Bunyan as part of the curriculum if Calalus is included. As to dumping the "holy" to save human lives, consider how the ancient Hebrews were willing to give up their lives to protect the Ark of the Covenant. A part of the Christian/Judeo belief system is that we are not to fear those whom can kill the body, rather we should fear only that which can kill the soul. Hence the massacre of so many thousands of Christians in the arena for the amusement of Roman emperors like Nero. This suggests that the Calalus artifacts were far from being considered "holy" relics".

Maybe we simply see things differently. From the stories that were handed down by our people and I might add what we teach, is that there were so few people left after the holocast that every human being was importent. To save the artifacts and ensure the death of those who endured so much to simply make it to the marsh in Arizona is simply barbaric. Actually I like the story of Paul Bunyon but no we do not teach that story.

Starman1 also wrote:

I suspected you were looking for the truth not writing a book. To suggest that the survivors of the holocast that befell the people could even be discussed with the same breath as the Nazi`s is simply breathtaking. That so many of our people died to preserve the holy and so many people sacrificed so much to keep it safe speaks to the integrity and depth of our belief in the decency in each human being. At the end of my class each year I tell our young people the story of where the phrase, "may the stars keep you safe" comes from. The man who carved that simple statement on a cave wall as he died in the Canyon of the Souls, was a remarkable man. His decision to stay and fight was a commitment to decency and a respect for the holy. Years later when his remains were buried in a cemetary in South Africa his descendants would look at your comments for what they are shameful.

Roy Wrote:


"Can you not see the direct parallels of your story and beliefs, to the mythical Aryan "history" as constructed by the Nazis? Complete with the "special" people and descendants. This kind of thing is a dangerous path to start down, and can end badly. Shameful indeed!"

Roy, you may want to re-boot this argument. Let me put it this way. The Nazi`s murdered at least 9 million Jews during WWII. The survivors of that holocast were special and indeed lucky. Are you saying that the survivors should be worried about become Nazi`s since they escaped the gas chambers. Roy your statment is shameful. Just live with it.

The simple reason the unpublished version of the Critias is not out there is because it is simply too valuable, not that it is a fraud. It is what brought our people to America, and Coronado to the Superstitions. I can`t prove this but I strongly suspect it is what brought those folks to Hidden Mountain. Will a copy ever surface I really don`t know. If it does there will be quite the storm.

Roy if you take the time to do field research you can write a remarkable book. If not the book will end up being another work that gathers dust on a bookcase. You have the opportunity to avoid that fate.

Apologize about the graffeti remark if that is not what you said. Thought you did.

As far as the origin of the word Calalus my position is still the same. Can`t really add anything because to do so would provide too much credibility to this and in a way that is a dangerous thing to do.

Roy, I value much of what you say it just needs to be tempered with field trips and reading some primary source material as I previously mentioned. The trident is a symbol of Atlantis. It appears on several of the Tucson Artifacts as an indicator of the library, it also exists in the Superstition Mountains high on the east side of W. Boulder Canyon and can also be found in the canyon that Bernice McGee stumbled on. The primary sign of our people is the starburst that can be found in many places in the Superstitions.


Roy, I respect scientific folks particulary the ones who have visited Oz. One in particular I will never forget. These folks can add something to the discussions the others well sometimes the nonsense is just boring.

Starman

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Just joking about your whining. I would be careful about calling folks liars, believe the moderators frown on that sort of thing. I won`t rat you out but someone might. Any chance you will be posting again as Heidi. That way you can argue two positions on the Artifacts at the same time.


Good luck


Starman
　

 

[wrmickel1]

Wrmickel1; Yeah I got that - but how much "older" do you suppose these Calalus artifacts are? Before you answer, consider that the lead alloy they are made of, was tested and found to match that of modern car battery plates.

Roy

Not surprised quite yet, They should of tested the Calcium content and the stannic alloy content, Nickels, tins, ect. With high Calcium I'd say there real old, and very abundant in AZ desert. So they quite well could of been made where they were found. And Scott Wolzer believes there real and he gots a tv show. DO YOU Hard to say if there real or not without a true test of the metal, but that would destroy the test piece.

Quite interesting topic Wrmickel1

 

[Oroblanco]

Starman1 wrote

Gentlemen:

Hello Roy,

I do recommend you read Bent`s work, "The Tucson Artifacts" before you attempt to pass judgment on the artifacts

I have not passed judgement on the Calalus artifacts, however they do seem to fit the mould of other fakes, like having NO other supporting evidence.

I guess that you are not going to post anything from that "unpublished portion" of Critias, nor answer where the name Calalus originated, and I must beg to differ with you on the trident being a symbol of Atlantis, rather it is a symbol of Poseidon, and of the Greek city-state of Syracusa, thought by some Christians to be a satanic symbol too. Poseidon was an enemy of the Titans, Atlantis was founded by Titans, it is not a logical match to use the Olympian Greek god's symbol for the Titan Atlantis.
　

Wrmickel wrote

Roy

Not surprised quite yet, They should of tested the Calcium content and the stannic alloy content, Nickels, tins, ect. With high Calcium I'd say there real old, and very abundant in AZ desert. So they quite well could of been made where they were found. And Scott Wolzer believes there real and he gots a tv show. DO YOU Hard to say if there real or not without a true test of the metal, but that would destroy the test piece.

　
Well my bad, I don't gots a TV show, so if Scott Wolzer says they are the genuine article on TV, then who am I to argue?
Oroblanco
　

 

[Oroblanco]

PS I forgot to address something,

Starman; I do not have a chapter on Calalus, had considered it but there are too many unresolved issues. As things stand, it might make a mention in the fakes and frauds chapter, as a possible candidate. I doubt that you would approve of, nor appreciate this book.

Also, if you cannot see the parallels between the Nazi mythology of the Aryans, and this tale of Calalus and special people/descendants, then the problem is not at this end. I made it a point to state that I was NOT saying you, nor any of your supporters, were like the Nazis, however this belief of yours is all too similar to the Aryan tale that the Nazis used to propagate their ideas of a superior race, that ended up with mass murders. It might be wise to re-examine this idea of yours, for there are real dangers in such beliefs.

Apparently you did not read my earlier post about what was left in America by ancient visitors, and did not go back to re-read it either. I did say that graffiti was something they left, but NOT the ONLY thing. Most ancient visitors to America, were coming to get something to bring back, not to leave things or construct cities. Hence a wooden artifact found in a Phoenician tomb was found to be made of a Brazilian wood, yet no ancient ruins have been found in Brazil showing that Phoenicians were there. (Notwithstanding Fawcett's lost city of Z, which just might be) I do "field work" apparently more than you think BTW, in fact even found an interesting site in the east which I tried to get archaeologists to look at, without luck. Don't assume that we reading these discussions never get into the field.

It is tempting to post something about the Hohokam people, who really did live in the Tucson and Phoenix area in ancient times; they practiced irrigation on a scale matched only in modern times, built impressive cities, had a solar calendar and built ball courts to play a game similar to the same game played by Mayans and Aztecs, yet we know so little of them due to their not having a written language. These people show no affiliation with Romans, however it is possible that some Old World explorers passing through the region did encounter them. I very much doubt they were Romans however, more likely peoples whom were enemies of Rome and far superior mariners.
The Hohokam

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

For anyone interested in the truth about the Tucson artifacts I would, once again, recommend that you try to find a copy of "Journal Of The Southwest" Volume 51, Number 1, Spring 2009. I believe it's available on the Internet, but pretty sure it's rare to find one to purchase.

It's very difficult, but not impossible, to find a copy of the Bent Manuscript.

"Calalus...." by Cyclone Covey is available for purchase at ABE Books. I have two copies, one is inscribed to Warren Dexter and has notes and highlighting by Dexter. You can Google Warren Dexter for more information on the man. Copies of the book can be found here:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...added=all&sortby=1&sts=t&tn=calalus&x=27&y=11

Another pertinent publication on this subject is, "Caliche in Arizona" by James Frank Breazeale and H.V. Smith.
University of Arizona Agricultural Experiment Station Bulletin 131: 419-41.

I have all of the above and return to them quite often.

As soon as one of the proponents of this story can explain how the artifacts can be found in caliche that is thousands of years old, they will have something to hang their collective hats on.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

Oz

Gentlemen:

Let`s see where we stand. In looking back over this dialogue it is really perplexing in a way it ever happened. I believe it was Old Pueblo who raised questions about all of this and I was pretty much content to let things ride until someone started using the testimony of dead men to prove the artifacts were frauds. Guess you have to find something if reading basic texts such as the Bent work is too taxing.

But at the same time truth was advanced a degree by opening gates that pointed to the genesis of the Tucson Artifacts being the Library of Oz and that the library was created by the ancients. Calalus as was noted was the name the ancients gave to the new world as documented in the unpublished sections of the Critias. Just to point a way on the word Calalus it`s original meaning revolves around a dark and foreboding place. A place that is unknown not only for the magnitude of its expanse but for its newness to the adventures that originally landed in what is now Savannah, Georgia. For those of you interested in additional study you might want to examine the artifacts for their maps and ponder the meaning of the tridents that are engraved on several of them. As I have suggested previously a small text, Arizona in the 50`s is `a good read and take the time to review certain passages and how they pertain to the history of Battle Axe Road.

From there we seem to spiral downward until the Nazi`s got thrown in to illustrate how dangerous it is to believe the truth. Roy tells us:

Also, if you cannot see the parallels between the Nazi mythology of the Aryans, and this tale of Calalus and special people/descendants, then the problem is not at this end. I made it a point to state that I was NOT saying you, nor any of your supporters, were like the Nazis, however this belief of yours is all too similar to the Aryan tale that the Nazis used to propagate their ideas of a superior race, that ended up with mass murders. It might be wise to re-examine this idea of yours, for there are real dangers in such beliefs.

Roy there is really nothing that can be added to my previous posts regarding the dangers in your type of thinking. Your remarks are shameful and are well a bit frightening.

I suspected you were looking for the truth not writing a book. To suggest that the survivors of the holocast that befell the people could even be discussed with the same breath as the Nazi`s is simply breathtaking. That so many of our people died to preserve the holy and so many people sacrificed so much to keep it safe speaks to the integrity and depth of our belief in the decency in each human being. At the end of my class each year I tell our young people the story of where the phrase, "may the stars keep you safe" comes from. The man who carved that simple statement on a cave wall as he died in the Canyon of the Souls, was a remarkable man. His decision to stay and fight was a commitment to decency and a respect for the holy. Years later when his remains were buried in a cemetary in South Africa his descendants would look at your comments for what they are shameful.

Furthermore:

Roy, you may want to re-boot this argument. Let me put it this way. The Nazi`s murdered at least 9 million Jews during WWII. The survivors of that holocast were special and indeed lucky. Are you saying that the survivors should be worried about become Nazi`s since they escaped the gas chambers. Roy your statment is shameful. Just live with it.

Roy, whether or not you mention Calalus in your literary efforts is of little interest to us. As I said before you have an opportunity to do something special but if your efforts here are an example of what we might expect well it is what it is.

Mr. Ribaudo,

Actually your book selection is quite good. While the Bent work is hard to find hopefully folks will start there so to prepare them for the problems with subsequent efforts.

Did not realize you were still hung up on the Caliche argument. Actually both the Bent and Covey efforts have solid counterpoints to your concerns.

Such a tragedy what happened at Spirit Mountain and what a loss to everyone. Sleep well at night gentlemen what is behind the curtains is better not known.

Starman

 

[cactusjumper]

How did they explain the different depths of the artifacts?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Starman,
Somehow you keep mis-reading what is posted.

Here is what I posted. Perhaps you need to re-read it.

If you really wonder why I have continued to discuss this topic with you and the other supporters of Calalus/Oz, it is because I have long been working on a book about ancient visitors from the Old World coming to America. As things stand, Calalus does not look to be genuine to me, and while this may seem harmless such fantasies can actually be harmful. We need only look to the rise of the Nazis and their invented mythology of the Aryans to see how a fantasy version of history can become very destructive indeed. I am NOT proposing that you or any of the other believers in Calalus are anything like the Nazis, just using that extreme example to show how such a fiction can be very destructive; ala a belief in some "special" or "superior" race of people, whom have been persecuted and the next step is the drive to "restore" this mythical empire.

Posted on Aug 2: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/421534-ldm-oz-calalus-5.html#post4121343

YOU have extracted that the mass murders of the Nazis are equivalent and confabulated that I made such accusations. Do you read the posts or just skim them? It appears that you are reading more into the printed word than is there. I even repeated that I was NOT comparing your group to the Nazis, but pointing out that your beliefs are similar to the Aryan mythology of the Nazis. It is shameful to try to make false accusations, please stop deliberately misconstruing what was posted.

Starman1 wrote

The man who carved that simple statement on a cave wall as he died in the Canyon of the Souls, was a remarkable man. His decision to stay and fight was a commitment to decency and a respect for the holy. Years later when his remains were buried in a cemetary in South Africa

　
You seem to be digging yourself in deeper. You state that your group found human remains in the "Canyon of Souls" which you describe as a place in Arizona, then admit having spirited away, ancient human remains, to South Africa, which act is several Federal felonies. Not to mention the Arizona state statutes or even International laws about smuggling ancient human remains. Do you stand by your statements, that it actually happened, and have those human remains in South Africa now or were you just making up a story? Think about it before you answer, I am not a law enforcement officer but they DO read our posts on these forums. South Africa has had a treaty of extradition with the US since 1999 BTW.

　
Strabo is indeed a dead man, as is Plato, Dr Barry Fell and other sources cited. Their words hold much more truth, for all their mistaken ideas, than some of the stuff you have posted here.

　
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I like a tall tale as much as anyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
　
　
　

 

[starman 1]

The People

Gentlemen,

Hello Roy,

Perhaps you need to revisit what you said:

and while this may seem harmless such fantasies can actually be harmful. We need only look to the rise of the Nazis and their invented mythology of the Aryans to see how a fantasy version of history can become very destructive indeed. I am NOT proposing that you or any of the other believers in Calalus are anything like the Nazis, just using that extreme example to show how such a fiction can be very destructive; ala a belief in some "special" or "superior" race of people, whom have been persecuted and the next step is the drive to "restore" this mythical empire.

One might point out that the people that survived the holocast have never said that surviving produced a special or superior race of people who are intent on the next step. Which seems to be restoring a mythical empire. Since this is the case what you are doing is using language in a confusing and superficial way that allows you to combine certain things, the people and their history with the Nazi myths of the Aryans in such a way that bears no relationship to reality. This invention of your thinking is far more dangerous than anything we have ever written. No Roy there is no similarity except in your mind. What exactly did you say?

"I even repeated that I was NOT comparing your group to the Nazis, but pointing out that your beliefs are similar to the Aryan mythology of the Nazis. It is shameful to try to make false accusations, please stop deliberately misconstruing what was posted".

So if the history of the people is similar, your words, to the Aryan mythology of the Nazis where did this come from? Did it come from anything we said or did it come from a darker place that we will never go. And why do you prefer to believe what exists in this dark place? Perhaps if you wish to discuss Nazi`s it would be better to discuss them in relationship to other things. And not discuss them in the same breath as a people who have suffered a holocast. Over a thousand of our people died in the Superstitions alone. The butchery that took place at Rhoda was simply not to be imagined. You see Roy as a prospective writer you need to understand the sensitivity of the people you bring into your discussions labeled extreme examples particularly a people who suffered so much to protect the holy and human life at the same time.


Roy

.
Next you tell us:

You seem to be digging yourself in deeper. You state that your group found human remains in the "Canyon of Souls" which you describe as a place in Arizona, then admit having spirited away, ancient human remains, to South Africa, which act is several Federal felonies. Not to mention the Arizona state statutes or even International laws about smuggling ancient human remains. Do you stand by your statements, that it actually happened, and have those human remains in South Africa now or were you just making up a story? Think about it before you answer, I am not a law enforcement officer but they DO read our posts on these forums. South Africa has had a treaty of extradition with the US since 1999 BTW.

Roy lets see where this takes us. In the previous paragraph the history of the people is a fiction similar to something the Nazis would favor. Now the history of the people is real and its descendants are deserving of criminal prosecution for caring for their dead. So what is it? Is it real or is it fiction. Or perhaps you believe it is both at the same time allowing you to jump back and forth between positions depending on the needs of the moment. Who needs logic in such a universe. Perhaps you should ponder how is it possible for all of this to be real and at the same time nothing that was done was illegal. Who knows maybe certain arrangements were always in place to preserve the history of the people that were advantageous for everyone involved. Perhaps the relocation of the library and our people caring for it was always the preferred ending considering what might happen if its contents were revealed.

Well anyway good luck on your book and we can agree on one thing Plato was an incredible author and thinker. Indeed as one commentary put it everything after Plato is simply footnotes.


Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Since the artifacts were dumped in a marshy area imagine their various weights would be a partial explanation and afterwards various geological factors similar to what happens to sunken vessels that cause them to end up in places that are different from where they originally went down. Just a personal opinion no real facts that I am aware of to explain this. I remember klondike has a theory on all of this but I can`t really recall it. Don`t believe I have read anything on this perhaps you have.


starman





​
　

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

Hello Roy,

Perhaps you need to revisit what you said:

and while this may seem harmless such fantasies can actually be harmful. We need only look to the rise of the Nazis and their invented mythology of the Aryans to see how a fantasy version of history can become very destructive indeed. I am NOT proposing that you or any of the other believers in Calalus are anything like the Nazis, just using that extreme example to show how such a fiction can be very destructive; ala a belief in some "special" or "superior" race of people, whom have been persecuted and the next step is the drive to "restore" this mythical empire.

One might point out that the people that survived the holocast have never said that surviving produced a special or superior race of people who are intent on the next step. Which seems to be restoring a mythical empire. Since this is the case what you are doing is using language in a confusing and superficial way that allows you to combine certain things, the people and their history with the Nazi myths of the Aryans in such a way that bears no relationship to reality. This invention of your thinking is far more dangerous than anything we have ever written. No Roy there is no similarity except in your mind. What exactly did you say?

"I even repeated that I was NOT comparing your group to the Nazis, but pointing out that your beliefs are similar to the Aryan mythology of the Nazis. It is shameful to try to make false accusations, please stop deliberately misconstruing what was posted".

So if the history of the people is similar, your words, to the Aryan mythology of the Nazis where did this come from? Did it come from anything we said or did it come from a darker place that we will never go. And why do you prefer to believe what exists in this dark place? Perhaps if you wish to discuss Nazi`s it would be better to discuss them in relationship to other things. And not discuss them in the same breath as a people who have suffered a holocast. Over a thousand of our people died in the Superstitions alone. The butchery that took place at Rhoda was simply not to be imagined. You see Roy as a prospective writer you need to understand the sensitivity of the people you bring into your discussions labeled extreme examples particularly a people who suffered so much to protect the holy and human life at the same time.


Roy

.
Next you tell us:

You seem to be digging yourself in deeper. You state that your group found human remains in the "Canyon of Souls" which you describe as a place in Arizona, then admit having spirited away, ancient human remains, to South Africa, which act is several Federal felonies. Not to mention the Arizona state statutes or even International laws about smuggling ancient human remains. Do you stand by your statements, that it actually happened, and have those human remains in South Africa now or were you just making up a story? Think about it before you answer, I am not a law enforcement officer but they DO read our posts on these forums. South Africa has had a treaty of extradition with the US since 1999 BTW.

Roy lets see where this takes us. In the previous paragraph the history of the people is a fiction similar to something the Nazis would favor. Now the history of the people is real and its descendants are deserving of criminal prosecution for caring for their dead. So what is it? Is it real or is it fiction. Or perhaps you believe it is both at the same time allowing you to jump back and forth between positions depending on the needs of the moment. Who needs logic in such a universe. Perhaps you should ponder how is it possible for all of this to be real and at the same time nothing that was done was illegal. Who knows maybe certain arrangements were always in place to preserve the history of the people that were advantageous for everyone involved. Perhaps the relocation of the library and our people caring for it was always the preferred ending considering what might happen if its contents were revealed.

Well anyway good luck on your book and we can agree on one thing Plato was an incredible author and thinker. Indeed as one commentary put it everything after Plato is simply footnotes.


Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Since the artifacts were dumped in a marshy area imagine their various weights would be a partial explanation and afterwards various geological factors similar to what happens to sunken vessels that cause them to end up in places that are different from where they originally went down. Just a personal opinion no real facts that I am aware of to explain this. I remember klondike has a theory on all of this but I can`t really recall it. Don`t believe I have read anything on this perhaps you have.

starman

　

starman,

For a better understanding of Caliche, how it is formed and how it ages, I would once again suggest that you find and read
"Caliche in Arizona" by James Frank Breazeale and H.V. Smith.
University of Arizona Agricultural Experiment Station Bulletin 131: 419-41.

Those two gentlemen are, possibly, better sources than the theories of klondike or yourself.
I would say they are way above the level of Bent and his partner.

Things got a bit testy when the deal to sell the artifacts went south.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Somero]

Roy I understand what you are saying about Aryan history and what Starman is saying. Basically what happened was through any means necessary the Nazi's were attempting to fabricate a history to prove there beliefs. The correlation between these two groups "That if history does not fit get a bigger hammer and make it fit." So much for using science to try to disprove a theory and in doing so actually prove it, nope better to take ideas and piece them together without questioning any validity.

Not sure why Starman is not understanding this simple point and wants to drag it out, rather than provide some better insight into his claims and attempt to differentiate how his "people" are not trying to make history fit.

 

[starman 1]

Hello Somero,

Obviously I take issue with your conclusions regarding the history of the people. Let me ask you this. Has there been any proof that we have romaticize the terrible tragedy of what happened and did anything other than report what happened. You see that is really the heart of the problem. Roy assumes a similarity or comparison that has no foundation in anything in the real world. What drives him to compare such things I simply do not understand. I believe a close reading of our points shows a sadness. A sadness that that stretches back over a thousand years. The loss of so much and the burden of the library. There is great pain in our people`s history and our reward for all of this has been the preservation of knowledge that one day when folks are ready will be a source of great joy and pleasure but for now it must remain hidden.

So Somero: does this exchange tell you anything about where we stand?

Roy tells us:

"If you think about it, the story of these "holy relics' being DUMPED should be a major red flag. If they were truly holy, why would they have been handled with so little respect"?

In the preceding post I stated:

"That night under an incredible sky my father shared with his friend the history of our people, the location of sites we would be visiting over the next few days and the history of the last days of Calalus that had been handed down from generation to generation. I will never forget his discussion of the creation of the Tucson Artifacts. They were made in the last days of the people in a small canyon, (Eldorado Canyon, Nevada) on the Colorado River. The artifacts were forged as a map home that one day might lead the descendents of Calalus back to their most holy site in the Superstitions. The relics were later dumped in a marshy area of Arizona to make room for living survivors of the holocast that befell the people. That is another history for another day"

Roy, what you are referencing is one of the most important moments in the history of our people. Every year I teach a class to our young people in South Africa when they reach a certain age. The lesson they take from this incident speaks to the humanity in each of us. That at such a time of great suffering and trials the decision was made to dump the holy for something that is far more precious human life.

So Somero does this sound like anything that would generate a belief of a superior race? Personally I don`t see it and don`t see how anyone could see it.

But in a way we have given too much, far too much. If all of this interests you there is enough primary sources material to take you on a voyage of discovery.

Perhaps the proof of the truth of what we say is the passion we project into these issues. This to us is personal it is not an abstraction to be pondered with academic indifference.

A friend of mine was fond of saying happy trails to you until we meet again. This is a good time to repeat that.

May the Stars keep you safe.


Starman

 

[Somero]

Roy I understand what you are saying about Aryan history and what Starman is saying. Basically what happened was through any means necessary the Nazi's were attempting to fabricate a history to prove there beliefs. The correlation between these two groups "That if history does not fit get a bigger hammer and make it fit." So much for using science to try to disprove a theory and in doing so actually prove it, nope better to take ideas and piece them together without questioning any validity.

Not sure why Starman is not understanding this simple point and wants to drag it out, rather than provide some better insight into his claims and attempt to differentiate how his "people" are not trying to make history fit.

Perhaps I should have highlighted this earlier.

Nothing about superior race or human suffering, just making claims about history and how it should be told. This type of attitude can be very detrimental.

Yes Starman I can clearly see what you are standing on. Apparently your "peoples" knowledge is something to be kept secret from us commoners. I think anything that would better mankind should be shared and not kept behind smokescreens of what ifs and we might have's. Like they say proof is in the pudding.

BTW I see nowhere that Oro has made any assumptions, unless you are referring to the assumptions you have read into his statements. Just saying.


Good Luck on recruiting more members.