Wells Fargo $250K <---- malarkey !!!

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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Thought we had put the $250,000. story to bed a long time ago. The original story had Waltz shipping that amount of ore, via Wells Fargo, to the US Mint in Sacramento Calif. As I recall, the claimed document was for a single shipment, not multiple shipments.

There has never been a US Mint in Sacramento. The mints would only accept bullion, not ore. Wells Fargo has no records of anyone shipping ore out of Arizona in Waltz's time. This information came to me directly from an official historian in the Wells Fargo Museum in San Francisco. Prior to speaking to that gentleman, I got the same information from the lady historian in Phoenix.

It would take some serious evidence to convince me otherwise.

One other thing......Waltz could not have shipped anything approaching that worth, without starting the greatest gold rush in Arizona history. That's a huge amount of tonnage of gold ore.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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That's what I heard. He bought it off Brownie when he needed some cash.
I have the paperback edition.

Frank,

Anyone who told you what Clay might or might not have, in respect to "Dutchman Ore" should have asked you not to repeat it, as Clay does not advertise such things, or so I've been told.:dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

sgtfda

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Feb 5, 2004
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You asked Joe. I also read it somewhere that it was bought when Brownie got sick. I'm not familiar with Clays preference on these things. Only talked to him in a group and he did not say much. Does this mean I'm in the lower camp doghouse now.
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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You asked Joe. I also read it somewhere that it was bought when Brownie got sick. I'm not familiar with Clays preference on these things. Only talked to him in a group and he did not say much. Does this mean I'm in the lower camp doghouse now.

Frank,

The lower camp does not have a doghouse. Those abodes are reserved for the upper camp. This will be Carolyn's and my last Rendezvous. I have hopes that someone like you will take our place.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
7,754
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Arizona
All,

I was wrong about a single shipment. Sorry, I plead old fart syndrome.

Here are my notes from the research done on the $250,000. story:
__________________________________________

I, along with many others have done a bit of research into this subject. Here is some of the results that have been found:

__________________________________________________


Quote:
"The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."

This is an quote from United States Treasure Atlas, Volume 1, Thomas P. Terry PP 59.

_________________________________________________________________

That statement has made the rounds in Dutch Hunting circles for many years before Thomas Terry came along. It has probably been checked out many more times than it has been quoted in a book.

Your first clue should have been when he said: "The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the Us Mint at Sacramento...." First of all, there has never been a U.S. Mint in Sacramento.....that I know of. Next, is the fact that the records he speaks of for Wells Fargo in San Francisco, don't exist. They were destroyed in the Great San Francisco Fire of 1906.

If Terry had taken the time to check his story......like all of the top LDM researchers have, he would have found the same thing they did. That would be zero, nada, zilch. I would be willing to list the authors who have checked out this same exact story.

In this case, using Terry for a source is a total waste of time.

Many researchers have investigated the story of Waltz's ore shipments. When it comes to the LDM, I doubt each and every writer........all of them.

One of the researchers who looked into this part of the legend, was Glenn Magill. These statements can be found on pages 60 and 61 of "The Killer Mountains":

"More frustrating still were his attempts to track down Waltz's ore shipments. According to legend, Waltz and his partner, Jacob Wiser, had shipped more than a quarter of a million dollars' worth of gold to the San Francisco Mint from various points in Arizona Territory, including Phoenix, Florence, Casa Grande, and Pinal.
An even dozen letters were necessary before Magill learned that the appropriate United States Mint ledgers were now stored in the San Francisco Center of the National Archives.
An equal number were necessary before permission was obtained for a San Francisco friend to search them.
The search netted nothing. Except for the names of a few individual ore buyers and some large mines such as the Silver King, shipments were listed mostly under the names of banks, businesses and stage companies. In Waltz's time, when a man cashed in his gold, the common practice was to sell it to an ore buyer or to a stage line, in this case Wells Fargo.
An inquiry to the History Room of Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco brought the information that the old stage records no longer existed."........Destroyed by the 1906 fire?

For anyone contemplating a trip to San Francisco, I would suggest that you first read:

"Fools' Gold" by Robert Sikorsky. Page 4 lists "Acknowledgements". On the list is this:

"The Wells Fargo Bank, History Room, San Francisco; University of Heidelberg, Records Division; General Services Administration, National Archives, Federal Records Centers at Denver, San Francisco and Washington, D. C.; United States Mint, Office of the Director, Washington, D. C.; A. L. Flagg Foundation, Phoenix.

While I am not vouching for the veracity of Mr. Sikorsky's "facts", there is no doubt that he at least looked up the locations that would house the records we are discussing and, he states no records were found linking Jacob Waltz to any gold shipments to San Francisco.

On pages 122 and 123, he gives the names of the people he talked to.


That makes two researcher into the legend that, pretty much, come up with the same story. I believe more could be found. Magill was trying to find any evidence that would support the LDM legend. As a Private Detective, I would imagine he did a pretty thorough job of it.

I doubt the truthfulness of Magill and Sikorsky, as well as all of the other books that have been written. You can see that you are in good company here.

The $254,000 ore shipments story has been around a long time. It has been checked out seven ways from Sunday by some of the best LDM researchers in the business. They checked Wells Fargo, the different U.S. Mints and archives and even looked for a U.S. Mint in Sacramento. It has been proven without any basis over and over again.

The last person I asked about it was Dr. Thomas Glover. Same searches, same results. I hold the man's research abilities second to none, and I know some pretty good hands.

I received this, this morning:

Hi, Joe,

Alas, we do not have any records of ore shipments from Arizona. All such remained the property of the shipping office, and have disappeared over the years.

Regards,

Dr. Robert J. Chandler
Senior Research Historian
Historical Services, A0101-106
Wells Fargo Bank
420 Montgomery Street
San Francisco, CA 94163-2921

Dr. Chandler gave me a call today. We probably talked for 20 or 30 minutes. I was like a kid in a candy store. Here was a man who really knew the history of the times and exactly what role Wells Fargo played in that story. I took notes. Came away from that conversation with a bit more knowledge than I started it with. Lucky day for me.


Just some of the exchanges on this matter. There are even more reasons to support this being a false story.
__________________________________________

Believe I left the story at that point.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Last edited:

sgtfda

Bronze Member
Feb 5, 2004
2,349
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Mesa Arizona
Frank,

The lower camp does not have a doghouse. Those abodes are reserved for the upper camp. This will be Carolyn's and my last Rendezvous. I have hopes that someone like you will take our place.

Take care,

Joe

Your a sly old fox Joe. You know more than you let on. Guess we are alike in some ways. If your breathing you will be there. You can't help yourself. It ain't over till its over. Our prayers are with you.
 

Oroblanco

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Cactusjumper wrote
Thought we had put the $250,000. story to bed a long time ago. The original story had Waltz shipping that amount of ore, via Wells Fargo, to the US Mint in Sacramento Calif. As I recall, the claimed document was for a single shipment, not multiple shipments.

I am sure that you were satisfied this story was "put to bed" a long time ago, and may have forgotten our revisit a year or so ago. I had then pointed out the McGee-Higham letters, which includes this fascinating paragraph:

The Lost Dutchman was never so called during his lifetime. The first mention of his ever having a lost mine was after his death. His 40 acres of land was not sold for 15 years later. Only a very few people knew where he was buried among them the Petrasch family because he was buried in their burial lot. Herman Petrasch searched for years to try and patch together what Jacob tried to explain to these two young men how to get to it. They afterwards thought he was only fooling them. When evidence later verified the gold shipments via the Wells Fargo XX. Co., it caused a stir and that sir has not ceased yet. It is hard to deny facts when they stare you in the face, and it is none of your business why the old Dutchman did as he did.

Note that there is NO mention of Sacramento, the Mint, nor ORE, just gold SHIPMENTS plural, not a singular, large shipment, which I see that you have already caught.

Cactusjumper also wrote
There has never been a US Mint in Sacramento. The mints would only accept bullion, not ore. Wells Fargo has no records of anyone shipping ore out of Arizona in Waltz's time. This information came to me directly from an official historian in the Wells Fargo Museum in San Francisco. Prior to speaking to that gentleman, I got the same information from the lady historian in Phoenix.

There were several places you could ship gold ore to in Sacramento, the MINT detail could very well have been inserted (an assumption) as it is not mentioned in that letter, Wells Fargo has no records period, and we have posted several of the old newspaper ads from Arizona, during Waltz's lifetime, showing that indeed Wells Fargo was in fact accepting and handling freight shipments in Arizona, almost certainly through contractors, which is still Wells Fargo just as a contract mail carrier is still operating under authority of the postal service. So the historians are quite wrong, provably so by the advertisements in the old Arizona newspapers. Or are you taking the position that the newspapers in Arizona, from the 1860s to 1890s, were falsely posting ads for Wells Fargo? More on the MINT angle in a bit:

Cactusjumper also wrote
It would take some serious evidence to convince me otherwise.

That is fine for you, however if there were no shipments by Waltz, why would it be mentioned as a main reason for why the Petrasch boys decided to keep looking for the mine?

Cactusjumper also wrote
One other thing......Waltz could not have shipped anything approaching that worth, without starting the greatest gold rush in Arizona history. That's a huge amount of tonnage of gold ore.

No it is not a huge tonnage of ore. The only assay we have is the Holmes one, which indicates some 5200 ounces per ton. I get a result of just over 2.3 tons, and since it was SHIPMENTS plural, could easily have been broken into five, ten or who knows how many packages. Waltz could have reduced the bulk still further by simply hammering and removing the waste rock he could. I would also point out that your statement about the shipments starting the greatest gold rush in AZ history, is pure speculation on your part. Wells Fargo agents were supposed to keep quiet about what they were handling, which was very much wise behavior, for if word got out that they were hauling a valuable cargo of gold or silver, it would greatly increase the odds they would get robbed. I can recall another incident in which rich gold ore was being shipped, and no one besides the agent knew what it was until a bag broke spilling the ore onto a loading platform. A Wells Fargo agent that broadcast the word when he was handling valuable freight, would hardly be a trusted agent. Can you site a similar instance, where someone shipped a couple of tons of ore, that resulted in a major gold rush in Arizona, and it has to be an incident in which the sender did NOT broadcast the news, which some lucky prospectors were only too happy to do.

Think about this, a man with a rich gold mine, which he had dug out a hole say four feet or so in diameter, a dozen feet deep. How much ore would that amount to, if it were ALL ore? It is in the range of 16 to 30 tons of rock (depending on various factors, rock density, how large the actual shaft is etc, actually for a four foot diameter, 12 feet deep shaft it should be close to 23 tons plus a little) and the only assay we have to judge by states some 5200+ oz of gold per ton. How much gold then should there have been, if all the excavated rock were that rich? On the other hand, what if the rich ore is only say ten percent of the rock removed from the mine - how much ore would you end up with? A couple of tons - right in the same range that you get by the math of figuring out the infamous $250,000 figure. On the other hand, if all the gold Waltz had, was the few thousand found and accounted for at his death, what happened to all the rest of the rock mined out of the shaft? How much ore can you pack on a burro or mule, per trip? A couple of hundred pounds - now it doesn't take that many trips to have a figure of a couple of tons total, and if you have two pack animals the factor changes and so on. Another thing to keep in mind, but apparently Waltz did not leave a mound of waste rock at the mine either, (which would make it far easier to find) so where did all the rock go? Is it not quite possible that the rock was hauled out for sale, or shipment to a smelter or assay office?

I think you may have missed it but it is actually perfectly within the range of real possibilities, that Waltz could have mined out a quarter million worth, actually more than that by a large factor.

By the way, while the US Mint has never had a production facility in Sacramento, there was a private minter of coins which were used in common circulation.

Once settled in Sacramento Dr Ormsby and his brother Maj. William M. founded and operated the first private mint in Sacramento,<snip>

More at J.S. Ormsby Pioneer Gold Coins<

Still say that it COULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED?
 

sgtfda

Bronze Member
Feb 5, 2004
2,349
3,877
Mesa Arizona
All,

I was wrong about a single shipment. Sorry, I plead old fart syndrome.

Here are my notes from the research done on the $250,000. story:
__________________________________________

I, along with many others have done a bit of research into this subject. Here is some of the results that have been found:

__________________________________________________

Quote:
"The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."

This is an quote from United States Treasure Atlas, Volume 1, Thomas P. Terry PP 59.

_________________________________________________________________

That statement has made the rounds in Dutch Hunting circles for many years before Thomas Terry came along. It has probably been checked out many more times than it has been quoted in a book.

Your first clue should have been when he said: "The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the Us Mint at Sacramento...." First of all, there has never been a U.S. Mint in Sacramento.....that I know of. Next, is the fact that the records he speaks of for Wells Fargo in San Francisco, don't exist. They were destroyed in the Great San Francisco Fire of 1906.

If Terry had taken the time to check his story......like all of the top LDM researchers have, he would have found the same thing they did. That would be zero, nada, zilch. I would be willing to list the authors who have checked out this same exact story.

In this case, using Terry for a source is a total waste of time.

Many researchers have investigated the story of Waltz's ore shipments. When it comes to the LDM, I doubt each and every writer........all of them.

One of the researchers who looked into this part of the legend, was Glenn Magill. These statements can be found on pages 60 and 61 of "The Killer Mountains":

"More frustrating still were his attempts to track down Waltz's ore shipments. According to legend, Waltz and his partner, Jacob Wiser, had shipped more than a quarter of a million dollars' worth of gold to the San Francisco Mint from various points in Arizona Territory, including Phoenix, Florence, Casa Grande, and Pinal.
An even dozen letters were necessary before Magill learned that the appropriate United States Mint ledgers were now stored in the San Francisco Center of the National Archives.
An equal number were necessary before permission was obtained for a San Francisco friend to search them.
The search netted nothing. Except for the names of a few individual ore buyers and some large mines such as the Silver King, shipments were listed mostly under the names of banks, businesses and stage companies. In Waltz's time, when a man cashed in his gold, the common practice was to sell it to an ore buyer or to a stage line, in this case Wells Fargo.
An inquiry to the History Room of Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco brought the information that the old stage records no longer existed."........Destroyed by the 1906 fire?

For anyone contemplating a trip to San Francisco, I would suggest that you first read:

"Fools' Gold" by Robert Sikorsky. Page 4 lists "Acknowledgements". On the list is this:

"The Wells Fargo Bank, History Room, San Francisco; University of Heidelberg, Records Division; General Services Administration, National Archives, Federal Records Centers at Denver, San Francisco and Washington, D. C.; United States Mint, Office of the Director, Washington, D. C.; A. L. Flagg Foundation, Phoenix.

While I am not vouching for the veracity of Mr. Sikorsky's "facts", there is no doubt that he at least looked up the locations that would house the records we are discussing and, he states no records were found linking Jacob Waltz to any gold shipments to San Francisco.

On pages 122 and 123, he gives the names of the people he talked to.

That makes two researcher into the legend that, pretty much, come up with the same story. I believe more could be found. Magill was trying to find any evidence that would support the LDM legend. As a Private Detective, I would imagine he did a pretty thorough job of it.

I doubt the truthfulness of Magill and Sikorsky, as well as all of the other books that have been written. You can see that you are in good company here.

The $254,000 ore shipments story has been around a long time. It has been checked out seven ways from Sunday by some of the best LDM researchers in the business. They checked Wells Fargo, the different U.S. Mints and archives and even looked for a U.S. Mint in Sacramento. It has been proven without any basis over and over again.

The last person I asked about it was Dr. Thomas Glover. Same searches, same results. I hold the man's research abilities second to none, and I know some pretty good hands.

I received this, this morning:

Hi, Joe,

Alas, we do not have any records of ore shipments from Arizona. All such remained the property of the shipping office, and have disappeared over the years.

Regards,

Dr. Robert J. Chandler
Senior Research Historian
Historical Services, A0101-106
Wells Fargo Bank
420 Montgomery Street
San Francisco, CA 94163-2921

Dr. Chandler gave me a call today. We probably talked for 20 or 30 minutes. I was like a kid in a candy store. Here was a man who really knew the history of the times and exactly what role Wells Fargo played in that story. I took notes. Came away from that conversation with a bit more knowledge than I started it with. Lucky day for me.

Just some of the exchanges on this matter. There are even more reasons to support this being a false story.
__________________________________________

Believe I left the story at that point.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I've used Terry's information in the past with some success. I'm going to dig that book out
 

Oroblanco

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PS forgot to add, but Ormsby's private mint, was still in operation in at least 1877.
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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Roy,

"Still say that it COULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED?"

Did I actually write that?
From what I know, Wells Fargo did not haul any ORE until the railroad came through. You might want to check on that.From what I understand, WF did not actually haul freight in Arizona. They contracted all of their shipments to other stage lines.

Take care,

Joe
 

Oroblanco

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Roy,

"Still say that it COULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED?"

Did I actually write that?
From what I know, Wells Fargo did not haul any ORE until the railroad came through. You might want to check on that.From what I understand, WF did not actually haul freight in Arizona. They contracted all of their shipments to other stage lines.

Take care,

Joe

Isn't that what I posted earlier, that Wells Fargo was operating through contract agents in Arizona? As to what the freight line was or was not handling, it would not make sense to ship ore that had a quarter ounce of gold per ton, but ore that had 5200 ounces per ton, would indeed be worth shipping. I have seen a number of such types of shipments from various persons in the Black Hills, sending out rich ore by the ordinary Deadwood stage company, prior to the Homestake smelter being set up. Oh and your post which I was replying to, said:

One other thing......Waltz could not have shipped anything approaching that worth, without starting the greatest gold rush in Arizona history. That's a huge amount of tonnage of gold ore.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...-wells-fargo-250k-malarkey-2.html#post4074592


Blake and Agnell ran an assay office and gold smelting business in Sacramento too - and struck their own coins as well; and BTW your own post previous, citing Frank Magill's research stated it was the San Francisco mint, not Sacramento (showing how such details can get garbled and wrong) and also mentioned that gold ore was often simply sold to a stage line. If a man sold gold ore to a Wells Fargo agent, what would he have along with the payment, receipts right? These would be "shipments" and likely would get sent to a smelter or a mint right?

Last point but the Petrasch boys were operating soon after Waltz died, and before 1907, when apparently ALL of the Wells Fargo records were lost.

Believe what you will - the $250,000 story does not make or break the Dutchman legend, however to presume that it was all just made up, or is "impossible" is not logical. If it were just a made up story - what book(s) or magazines have it? Buried in Thomas Terry's US Treasure Atlas among ten thousand other treasure tidbits? Really it is mentioned only in private letters, not stories made up to sell books. Had Terry not gotten wind of it, how many people do you suppose would even know about the Wells Fargo story today?

I wonder if I just use too many words.
 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
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Roy,

"I wonder if I just use too many words."

It doesn't take too many to make my mind start spinning these days, so.........:dontknow: On the other hand I love reading your thoughts.

Take care,

Joe
 

Oroblanco

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Oroblanco

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PS forgot to post this earlier, more proof that assay offices in the frontier days also did some ore smelting

assayer-ad3.jpg
ad from Sacramento Daily Union, 21 February 1865 — Page 4 Advertisements Column 3
 

sgtfda

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I think Waltz was the type to hide his gold where he could keep a eye on it. When Julia needed money he gave her gold dug up in the yard not cash. I tend to look at things like that. Can you imagine Waltz walking into a office with a Quarter million in gold. It would cause quite a incident. Nothing goes on in small towns that everyone does not know about. I remember going to a club board meeting after posting a photo. You could cut the silence with a knife. They knew I was in the Superstitions but not where. Word gets around.
 

Oroblanco

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"Still say that it COULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED?"

Could has nothing to do with it. Could there be a toaster orbiting Neptune? Simply not supported by the evidence.


Doh.jpg

Are you claiming that a toaster is orbiting Neptune? What does that have to do with the Wells Fargo story? Please stick to the topic of your thread.
 

OP
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Are you claiming that a toaster is orbiting Neptune? What does that have to do with the Wells Fargo story? Please stick to the topic of your thread.

Do you really want me to go back and dissect that pile of tripe you put forth? I was being kind and non confrontational, but if you need a spankin just say so.
 

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