Wells Fargo $250K <---- malarkey !!!

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
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FEMF,

Sorry to say, anything that has touched Roberts as a possible source, IMHO is tainted. This "draft" is very suspicious in my opinion. Even though it does no harm to accept it at face value, it won't get anyone closer or farther away from the LDM. As a fan of history, I'm offended by such "in your face" fabrications. We see it daily from our politicians.

Thank you for your opinion,

Joe
 

FEMF

Full Member
Sep 10, 2009
158
86
FEMF,

Sorry to say, anything that has touched Roberts as a possible source, IMHO is tainted. This "draft" is very suspicious in my opinion. Even though it does no harm to accept it at face value, it won't get anyone closer or farther away from the LDM. As a fan of history, I'm offended by such "in your face" fabrications. We see it daily from our politicians.

Thank you for your opinion,

Joe

Joe
I'm not only after the history, I'm after the Man himself, and who he truly was, a murder, or a man who toke care of those he cared about. And from my read of most all of us hear is, " The man had a heart and made sure those that he cared about was taken care of, he tried anyways!" Even Dick, he or his son never looked back, until Browning told Clay, "I don't know if Jacob lied to my father, but. My father never lied to me, and I've never lied to you Clay!
Take care and be safe Joe.
FEMF
 

cactusjumper

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FEMF,

Therein lies my problem. I don't give much credence to a man who is said to have stolen the box of gold from under Waltz's deathbed. So, if I'm to believe Brownie, and I do, I suspect his father did not tell him the truth. It would hardly be the first time a man lied to his son.

What do you suppose Dick would have done if he followed Waltz to his mine, and Waltz discovered him there? Would someone have died? Would Holmes have killed him? You see, things do tend to get a little convoluted. While the history that we read seems somewhat cut and dried, the reality seldom works out that way.

Look at it this way, if Dick did steal the gold and told the story that Waltz gave it to him, how could he ever admit to his son that he was just a thief after all?:dontknow:

Good luck in your research,

Joe
 

FEMF

Full Member
Sep 10, 2009
158
86
FEMF,

Therein lies my problem. I don't give much credence to a man who is said to have stolen the box of gold from under Waltz's deathbed. So, if I'm to believe Brownie, and I do, I suspect his father did not tell him the truth. It would hardly be the first time a man lied to his son.

What do you suppose Dick would have done if he followed Waltz to his mine, and Waltz discovered him there? Would someone have died? Would Holmes have killed him? You see, things do tend to get a little convoluted. While the history that we read seems somewhat cut and dried, the reality seldom works out that way.

Look at it this way, if Dick did steal the gold and told the story that Waltz gave it to him, how could he ever admit to his son that he was just a thief after all?:dontknow:

Good luck in your research,

Joe
Joe
I believe Jacob gave Dick the gold and Dick never looked back, Brownie did question the story in the end, but it was to late to help. Sim's book is the best of all the books. I agree with you about Dick and what would have happened if Dick had found the mine by following Jacob, but I believe Jacob died with a grin not a groin! Ha, Ha. Take care, and be safe Joe.
FEMF
 

Oroblanco

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Cactusjumperwrote
All,

I have been accused of so many false practices on this, and other sites, that there is no way I can prove they are false. Some people will no longer reply to my posts because I have publicly posted true facts. They know they are true, but it does not fit their agenda.

I am up to my eyeballs in this crap and very tired of fighting the lies. One of the truths I have been speaking of was, I believe, recently confirmed by the Mod's, and one person was banned from this site, along with his other identity. This stuff has been going on for many, many years.

I do appreciate the words of encouragement and support that I have received from my friends and even from folks I have never met. It gives me hope that the truth still has some value to many people.
and
FEMF,

Sorry to say, anything that has touched Roberts as a possible source, IMHO is tainted. This "draft" is very suspicious in my opinion. Even though it does no harm to accept it at face value, it won't get anyone closer or farther away from the LDM. As a fan of history, I'm offended by such "in your face" fabrications. We see it daily from our politicians.

Joe, I have not attacked you over this. Not sure why you are interpreting the debate over a POSSIBLE piece of the puzzle (not proven, nor disproven) as an assault on your character. As in, "in your face" and "I have been accused of so many false practices" .

I am not accusing you of false practices. You seem to agree that this bank draft really does not add nor subtract to anyone ever finding the Lost Dutchman's mine. It is just not that big of a deal. It certainly won't make any difference in whether I will hunt for the mine or not, but that is just my opinion. Maybe Roberts fabricated it - maybe Laura Branstetter's family inherited it, I was not there when the document was being made, were you? I am leaning toward the document is genuine, on several factors none of which involve Roberts. A side point here but if anything I said or posted has caused this interpretation as a personal attack, my sincere apologies, NO such offense was intended, and for that matter after this post I will happily drop the subject rather than continue to offend a friend.

If the bank draft is genuine, does that rehabilitate Roberts as a truthful source? Not in my book; his information which served to virtually destroy the reputation of a great author on the Dutchman legend, weighs far too heavily. How was this person able to insinuate himself into the Dutch hunting community after all, and most effectively, but by mixing true history with falsehoods. Would that not be exactly the same case here? (A genuine bank draft, helping to make other information more acceptable) The genuine stuff tends to lend credence to a person like this, so we are less on guard against the false. I don't even credit him for bringing it forward, this I would say has to go to Laura Branstetter. Maybe Laura Branstetter made up the maps and bank draft? She was after all viewed as rather whacky by the news media, but based on her actions I have to think she believed her information was true and genuine. I suspect, but cannot prove, that Roberts obtained the draft or a copy of it, in the period when he was viewed as a highly respected authority on the LDM.

Heck even I have been privileged to see and hear some very interesting tidbits over the years, shown to me by persons whom had some respect for me, and which was given in trust so cannot go into any details, and I am not even in the 'top ranks' of Dutch hunters at all. I know that Tom K , Clay Wurst and Robert Corbin have been shown things which were 'private' and some which they have made public (by permission of course) just as you have yourself Joe; have you not been privy to some very interesting information? I suspect that was the case with the bank draft and Roberts.

If anyone wishes to launch a lawsuit against me for slander, rest assured that I have solid proof to back up my statements concerning the false information. In fact what made me accept the 'stuff' from that questionable source in the first place, was that some of what he had, seemed to match what I had found myself, however he had introduced (or SOMEONE had) subtle changes to that information, like adding Jacob Waltz to the Weaver party, which I hardly noticed until questions started to be raised. As I have copies of the original documents, and there is NO Waltz listed among the Weaver party, yet the version from this person has it, obviously someone had altered the original. Hence I agree that anything originating or passing through the hands of this person deserves to be looked at harder than usual. Anyway if the moderators wish this post removed I will certainly do so, just wanted to clear the air.

Frankly I get tired of the constant naysaying, overwhelming skepticism concerning the lost treasure topics; one would think this forum were for Skeptics magazine rather than where treasure hunters meet online. :dontknow: Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

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sgtfda

Bronze Member
Feb 5, 2004
2,349
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I thought Matt's stories were entertaining. Not like it was any different than a lot of the other Dutchman bull. I do understand Joes feelings on the issue. But there comes a time when you put things behind you. I would put my money on Dick grabbing the box and taking off with it. At that point Waltz was a just about dead and I'm sure not paying much attention. In the end only Dick knows.
 

OP
OP
ConceptualizedNetherlandr
Apr 17, 2014
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Concept.....,

I believe you are mistaken. Proving something or someone's statements false is done every single day.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I am not, most certainly.

Proving something or someone's statements false is Icing on the cake when faced with the fallacious retort challenge to 'prove false', not required just makes such a cleaner job.

The concept that a claimant uses to bolster their claim that it hasn't been proven false is malarkey, much like the entire wells fargo thing.

The age old argument from ignorance. Some never learn.

Is your google broken or do you need a link to fallacious argument?
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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I am not, most certainly.

Proving something or someone's statements false is Icing on the cake when faced with the fallacious retort challenge to 'prove false', not required just makes such a cleaner job.

The concept that a claimant uses to bolster their claim that it hasn't been proven false is malarkey, much like the entire wells fargo thing.

The age old argument from ignorance. Some never learn.

Is your google broken or do you need a link to fallacious argument?

Concept.,

Believe my Google thingie works fine, but for really simple stuff, like this, almost seventy years of living works just as well. Only need Google for things I don't know. Google is not my brain, like it is for many.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Oroblanco

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Concept.,

Believe my Google thingie works fine, but for really simple stuff, like this, almost seventy years of living works just as well. Only need Google for things I don't know. Google is not my brain, like it is for many.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 
Some people seem to think a discussion of a treasure LEGEND is like a science experiment. Not everyone has to rely on Google for facts either. Oh well.

For our readers, to illustrate how a point can be proven false, which hardly means that ALL things can be, but anyway in the Holmes manuscript, we have the story that Waltz did not file a claim on his mine because he was not a citizen. We know that Waltz became a naturalized US citizen in Los Angeles even before he came to Arizona. Hence that statement about his reason for not filing a legal claim on the mine, because he was not a citizen, is proven FALSE.

Side thing to Joe, found a copy of the court transcripts for the Reno court of inquiry for sale, one of FOUR known to exist, very pricey @ $6500 if you would like the linkee just drop me an EM or PM and will do, as it is a wee bit out of my own library budget.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
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Roy,

I thought I had a copy of the Reno Inquiry, but not at that price.

My comments were not aimed at you, my friend, nor this particular topic. I have never taken on another name, in order to attack another person. I have never changed anyone's posts, to place them in another light. Those who have made those claims are of questionable character. You know who you are, and I know you still look in on this forum to see what people are writing about you.

Take care Roy,

Joe
 

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Oroblanco

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Roy,

I thought I had a copy of the Reno Inquiry, but not at that price.

My comments were not aimed at you, my friend, nor this particular topic. I have never taken on another name, in order to attack another person. I have never changed anyone's posts, to place them in another light. Those who have made those claims are of questionable character. You know who you are, and I know you still look in on this forum to see what people are writing about you.

Take care, Roy,

Joe

OK amigo I got the impression that perhaps our discussion, or specifically my posts were coming across as some kind of personal attack, which was never the idea. Which is not to say that you can not be a wee tad on the stubborn side however! :tongue3: <Aren't we all? Seems to be a common aspect of most treasure hunters, which is a good thing - perseverance pays.>

Mr. Roberts wanted to be a man with a name in the Dutch hunting community, and he has gotten one. Probably not the same kind of image he wished for but fame is fame after all. I guess that old saying about being careful what we wish for, due to the danger that we just might get it, is all too true. I do NOT blame you for being highly suspicious of anything that passed through his hands, some of his 'work' was quite subtle and easy to miss.

I am sending you the link via PM for that book mentioned, it is a neat and rare edition, wish I could afford it or justify it somehow but as I have a PDF copy and a scan of the same proceedings, can't even claim that I need it for the research.

Actually I have to add something to this on the bank draft, somewhat related to the Wells Fargo story; while it appears (to ME) that the document is genuine, really it only serves to add more questions to the mystery. Who or whom (never know which is the right one, who-m?) was Waltz attempting to send money to? The story goes that it was a sister, but what was her name? Was there no other contact between them over his relatively long lifetime? To further complicate matters, according to the 1880 and 1870 (and 1890) censuses for Kansas, there are several different families named Waltz living there. Are they related? None of them seems to have been born in Germany. A quick check of the Kansas marriage records likewise turns up several female Waltz persons whom married, yet they seem far too young to have been a sister to Jacob. Could the relative have been a niece? A cousin? Why send SO much money, was it needed for paying a mortgage (another possible lead?) or to help pay the costs of dealing with an illness in the family, or just to help out the relative financially? Did Jacob OWE that money to the relative, so was paying back a 'grubstake' so to speak? <Some grubstake agreements are recorded in county courthouses, not most unfortunately but perhaps something might turn up along that avenue of research>


On this topic, there is a book on Wells Fargo in Arizona Territory, I do not own a copy but perhaps others do? One point it mentions is that the company began operations in Arizona in 1863, which is older than the oldest reference I had by a couple of years (had the impression they started right after the Civil War, not during). I don't expect that this book is going to have shipping records or purchases of gold ore, but might have some helpful information for some researcher. The authors names are: John and Lillian Theobold, the title is exactly what is in that first sentence.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and anyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Some of you already have! :thumbsup:
Oroblanco
 

Oroblanco

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I found this posting very interesting Oro... You come up with some very minute details... hehehe

I'm tapping my ruby slippers together while saying "there's now place like Reno" 3 times... lol.. Maybe one of these days I'll return to my little hole in Nevada... :(

Ed T :)

Yikes Ed! This IS a FAMILY-ORIENTED site amigo! :censored: :wink: :3some: :occasion16: :icon_biggrin:
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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Roy,

I have the book that the Theobald's wrote, actually he died about half-way through the writing. Lillian finished the book on her own. She signed my copy as well as Bert M. Fireman, who was the man who edited the book.

Their first book was "Arizona Territory Post Offices & Postmasters", which is a very popular book for researchers and historians. I also have that here somewhere.

I do have a book on the Reno Court Of Inquiry, but it is an "abstract" version. I have seen one of the four originals for $6500.

Take care

Joe
 

markmar

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Oct 17, 2012
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FEMF,

Therein lies my problem. I don't give much credence to a man who is said to have stolen the box of gold from under Waltz's deathbed. So, if I'm to believe Brownie, and I do, I suspect his father did not tell him the truth. It would hardly be the first time a man lied to his son.

What do you suppose Dick would have done if he followed Waltz to his mine, and Waltz discovered him there? Would someone have died? Would Holmes have killed him? You see, things do tend to get a little convoluted. While the history that we read seems somewhat cut and dried, the reality seldom works out that way.

Look at it this way, if Dick did steal the gold and told the story that Waltz gave it to him, how could he ever admit to his son that he was just a thief after all?:dontknow:

Good luck in your research,

Joe

Joe

I believe how alone the fact Dick Holmes attempted to follow Waltz to his mine , shows a dubious character . He wantel THE GOLD . The Julia's map shows how Dick in his manuscript had hidden some important clues ( horse head rock and three pines ) , which are very close to the mine . So the Waltz description of the trail ( to reach the mine ) in the manuscript , is FALSE . He searched the rest of his life for these two clues but he never found them .
 

Cubfan64

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I don't remember what year it was, but at least 3 years ago at the Rendezvous, Thomas Glover gave a talk about the "bank draft." At the time I remember getting sort of lost in it all because it was something I hadn't paid any attention to up to that point. I Know Greg records all those talks - sometime in the next year I'll see if I can get a copy of that talk and transcribe it as it might shed some light on the story
 

OP
OP
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I don't remember what year it was, but at least 3 years ago at the Rendezvous, Thomas Glover gave a talk about the "bank draft." At the time I remember getting sort of lost in it all because it was something I hadn't paid any attention to up to that point. I Know Greg records all those talks - sometime in the next year I'll see if I can get a copy of that talk and transcribe it as it might shed some light on the story

Lemmie guess, 18 - 1/2 minutes will be missing :D
 

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