If I could change the subjet for a moment. I have always had a lingering question about the Maximilian treasure story. If Carlota left mexico from Vera Cruz, why would Maximilian not try and also ship his treasure out from Vera Cruz?,it was so much closer than going up thru texas.
Maximilian Treasure
- Thread starter BILL96
- Start date
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
=BILL96: why would Maximilian not try and also ship his treasure out from Vera Cruz?,it was so much closer than going up thru texas.
**************
I am not sure on the actual time but possibly because Vera Cruz was under, or about to be under rebel control. Then again, DID he send it to Texas?
Personally I doubt it since he certainly did not think that he would be disposed until it was too late.
Don Jose de La Mancha . Tropical Tramp
**************
I am not sure on the actual time but possibly because Vera Cruz was under, or about to be under rebel control. Then again, DID he send it to Texas?
Personally I doubt it since he certainly did not think that he would be disposed until it was too late.
Don Jose de La Mancha . Tropical Tramp
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
=BILL96 If you dought that he shipped it to TX, what do you think happed to it?. Bill
************
Sheesh Bill, there is one heck of a lot of counry in Mexicc and on the route to Texas. But I will say this, they knew about the conditions on the trail and in Texas long befofe setting out, IF they did. No need to hire unknown vagrants along the way. Would you?
there are soo many possibiliteis, that one doen't know where to brin without more information.
Don Jose de La Mancha
************
Sheesh Bill, there is one heck of a lot of counry in Mexicc and on the route to Texas. But I will say this, they knew about the conditions on the trail and in Texas long befofe setting out, IF they did. No need to hire unknown vagrants along the way. Would you?
there are soo many possibiliteis, that one doen't know where to brin without more information.
Don Jose de La Mancha
- Thread starter
- #5
tt,
I have been a fan of yours and have been following your posts for a long time. While I have been a strong believer in the royal treasure existing, the idea that maximilian would ship his treasure to the north rather than take the much shorter route to the coast never made sence to me, thanks for your input anyway.
Bill
I have been a fan of yours and have been following your posts for a long time. While I have been a strong believer in the royal treasure existing, the idea that maximilian would ship his treasure to the north rather than take the much shorter route to the coast never made sence to me, thanks for your input anyway.
Bill
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
HI Bill Thanks. I agree the treasure does exists, but I would not look for it in Texas, but at the nearsest port still under his command, and the country in between. With due diligence it could be traced closely even today. Records "were " kept, obviously not listing it as his royal treasure, but something else quite common. At the tail end of A revolution it wouldn't not be listed as cooking ware or such, but as something essential to the cause..
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
Rebel - KGC
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Re: Maximilian Treasure
in VIRGINIA, USA!!!
How about this, then... he DID go SOUTH, to the coast with the "loot"; put it on several waiting ships... sailed EAST to Fla., THEN... NORTH to Virginia/Chesapeake Bay... "up" James River, past "the Falls" (and around it);THEN, WEST on the James River to Coleman's Falls, burying the "loot" near the Peaks of Otter. 
POINT being... Bedford County, Va. DOES have TWO "legends" of interest... ONE, the
"Beale" Treasure is REALLY Max's "GOLD"; and TWO... P. Villa was at Sharp Top with another guy, CRYING, and tearing pages out of a book, throwing 'em to the wind; he could NOT see/find the "loot", with the clues he had... is it true? DUNNO... BUT! will try to find the info, in my files, somewhere... 
in VIRGINIA, USA!!! How about this, then... he DID go SOUTH, to the coast with the "loot"; put it on several waiting ships... sailed EAST to Fla., THEN... NORTH to Virginia/Chesapeake Bay... "up" James River, past "the Falls" (and around it);THEN, WEST on the James River to Coleman's Falls, burying the "loot" near the Peaks of Otter. POINT being... Bedford County, Va. DOES have TWO "legends" of interest... ONE, the"Beale" Treasure is REALLY Max's "GOLD"; and TWO... P. Villa was at Sharp Top with another guy, CRYING, and tearing pages out of a book, throwing 'em to the wind; he could NOT see/find the "loot", with the clues he had... is it true? DUNNO... BUT! will try to find the info, in my files, somewhere...
Rebel - KGC
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Re: Maximilian Treasure...
8) STILL looking... MUST in storage in Bedford City; MEANWHILE... check THIS out... MAXMILLAN's GOLD FOUND? (from TN): Look in the TEXAS section of GENERAL DISCUSSION - BY LOCATION on this web-site.
8) STILL looking... MUST in storage in Bedford City; MEANWHILE... check THIS out... MAXMILLAN's GOLD FOUND? (from TN): Look in the TEXAS section of GENERAL DISCUSSION - BY LOCATION on this web-site. 
Oroblanco
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Greetings,
I agree that the idea of shipping out the treasure by sea would make more sense than attempting to slip across Mexico overland - however there are problems with that route as well. For one, the last French troops evacuated Vera Cruz on March 12th, 1867 abandoning their cannons and most equipment to the Republican armies who then occupied the port, so that particular port was not a possible exit for Maximilian. Remember too that the emperor had gone to Queretaro to command what was left of his army in person (he still had a handful of Austrian and Belgian volunteers who had not disbanded in Dec '66 plus some Imperial troops) where he was defeated and captured on May 15th, '67. Mexico city itself was still in the hands of Imperial troops at that moment - the capital city held out until June 20th when it was surrendered to the Republican forces.
So if a person is serious about tracking down the treasure of Maximilian, one has to pin down the timeline to when it was sent off to at least a specific date. If it was dispatched prior to the fall of Vera Cruz, it might have been shipped out - of course there was the danger of US naval forces then intercepting it as the USA had taken a very dim view of foreign intervention in Mexico and was only prevented from interceding in defense of Mexico by the eruption of our own Civil War.
If I were a "betting man" I would wager that the treasure was not even shipped out of Mexico city before May 15th since Maximilian was still fighting to retain his crown up to that date, but was shipped out between May 15th and June 20th by one of the surviving Imperial generals, NOT by Maximilian himself. In this case it makes perfect sense for the treasure to be shipped north, where a retired Mexican general might hope to "retire" in relative comfort, having the whole of Maximilian's treasury to finance his retirement! Whether the treasure actually made it to the USA or not remains to be determined.
If this "scenario" is correct, then we ought to have some kind of record of the treasure being captured, if it did not make it to the USA - or at least some kind of "legend" to fit the events - and sure enough, we DO have such legends, which hint that the treasure was stolen soon after crossing the border and then hidden by the Yankee bandits.
Just my own opinion and theories of others that I am repeating here, it is quite possible that Maximilian's treasure remains hidden within the city limits of Mexico City or even in a European vault for that matter, until someone can PROVE they have found the treasure we just cannot know. (One possibility is that Maximilian's treasure is what was found in Victorio Peak NM and then stolen by US government agents who used it to finance Vietnam war and many other actions, of course this is theory too.)
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco
PS I looked up to find out when the US Navy had imposed a naval blockade of Mexico, and this was February 12th of 1866, along with stationing some 50,000 US troops on the Rio Grande to threaten a direct intervention against the French in support of the Republican Mexican forces. The US naval blockade was primarily to prevent any foreign reinforcements from arriving (remember the US Navy included some ironclads, which were very formidable warships) but did allow some French troops to sail away from Mexico - however an attempt to slip out with the treasure would definitely be risking interception and seizure by US ships and Maximilian would have been well aware of this risk. As dangerous as the overland route might have looked, it was probably less risky than trying to outrun US warships.
I agree that the idea of shipping out the treasure by sea would make more sense than attempting to slip across Mexico overland - however there are problems with that route as well. For one, the last French troops evacuated Vera Cruz on March 12th, 1867 abandoning their cannons and most equipment to the Republican armies who then occupied the port, so that particular port was not a possible exit for Maximilian. Remember too that the emperor had gone to Queretaro to command what was left of his army in person (he still had a handful of Austrian and Belgian volunteers who had not disbanded in Dec '66 plus some Imperial troops) where he was defeated and captured on May 15th, '67. Mexico city itself was still in the hands of Imperial troops at that moment - the capital city held out until June 20th when it was surrendered to the Republican forces.
So if a person is serious about tracking down the treasure of Maximilian, one has to pin down the timeline to when it was sent off to at least a specific date. If it was dispatched prior to the fall of Vera Cruz, it might have been shipped out - of course there was the danger of US naval forces then intercepting it as the USA had taken a very dim view of foreign intervention in Mexico and was only prevented from interceding in defense of Mexico by the eruption of our own Civil War.
If I were a "betting man" I would wager that the treasure was not even shipped out of Mexico city before May 15th since Maximilian was still fighting to retain his crown up to that date, but was shipped out between May 15th and June 20th by one of the surviving Imperial generals, NOT by Maximilian himself. In this case it makes perfect sense for the treasure to be shipped north, where a retired Mexican general might hope to "retire" in relative comfort, having the whole of Maximilian's treasury to finance his retirement! Whether the treasure actually made it to the USA or not remains to be determined.
If this "scenario" is correct, then we ought to have some kind of record of the treasure being captured, if it did not make it to the USA - or at least some kind of "legend" to fit the events - and sure enough, we DO have such legends, which hint that the treasure was stolen soon after crossing the border and then hidden by the Yankee bandits.
Just my own opinion and theories of others that I am repeating here, it is quite possible that Maximilian's treasure remains hidden within the city limits of Mexico City or even in a European vault for that matter, until someone can PROVE they have found the treasure we just cannot know. (One possibility is that Maximilian's treasure is what was found in Victorio Peak NM and then stolen by US government agents who used it to finance Vietnam war and many other actions, of course this is theory too.)
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco
PS I looked up to find out when the US Navy had imposed a naval blockade of Mexico, and this was February 12th of 1866, along with stationing some 50,000 US troops on the Rio Grande to threaten a direct intervention against the French in support of the Republican Mexican forces. The US naval blockade was primarily to prevent any foreign reinforcements from arriving (remember the US Navy included some ironclads, which were very formidable warships) but did allow some French troops to sail away from Mexico - however an attempt to slip out with the treasure would definitely be risking interception and seizure by US ships and Maximilian would have been well aware of this risk. As dangerous as the overland route might have looked, it was probably less risky than trying to outrun US warships.
Rebel - KGC
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Re: Maximilian Treasure... WHERE?
Yo! Oro.. how ya doing? Liked yer "post"... just gonna add a few "mysteries"; I have ALSO heard/read that the Knights of the Golden Circle helped "Max" get into the USA. I ALSO know that the US MINT in New Orleans was established in 1838... and it MAY be that SOME of "Max's" loot was deposited there by ship(s)... MAYBE even the GOLD being "melted" down for U.S. coinage... to "bribe" his way through ANY U.S. blockade AND! "greasing" the palms of ANY U.S. "politician of use". I kinda "discounted" the "Beale Treasure" theory, myself... THAT is why it is in storage... LOL. I REALLY, REALLY think it was at Vic. Peak, and the U.S. Gov't got it, & put it ALL in Ft. Knox... DUNNO.
Yo!
Oro.. how ya doing? Liked yer "post"... just gonna add a few "mysteries"; I have ALSO heard/read that the Knights of the Golden Circle helped "Max" get into the USA. I ALSO know that the US MINT in New Orleans was established in 1838... and it MAY be that SOME of "Max's" loot was deposited there by ship(s)... MAYBE even the GOLD being "melted" down for U.S. coinage... to "bribe" his way through ANY U.S. blockade AND! "greasing" the palms of ANY U.S. "politician of use". I kinda "discounted" the "Beale Treasure" theory, myself... THAT is why it is in storage... LOL. I REALLY, REALLY think it was at Vic. Peak, and the U.S. Gov't got it, & put it ALL in Ft. Knox... DUNNO. - Thread starter
- #11
Greetings,
"Recollections of Mexico" by Samuel Basch M.D. which are the compiled recollections of Maximilian's personal physician.
In this book Dr. Basch recounts that in October 1866 Maximilian is planning to abdicate and return to Europe. As part of the abdication process Dr Basch writes " Maximilian was very careful to see to it that not even the smallest property of the state was touched. He repeatedly sent the strictest orders to Mexico City and VeraCruz that only his personal property be shipped to Europe".
OK even tho Maximilian did not go thru with the abdication was all his personal property sent off to Europe through Veracruz as he had instructed? It seems possible that it could have. To me this seems like a more likely scenero than trying to ship things off thru Texas.
Thanks,Bill
"Recollections of Mexico" by Samuel Basch M.D. which are the compiled recollections of Maximilian's personal physician.
In this book Dr. Basch recounts that in October 1866 Maximilian is planning to abdicate and return to Europe. As part of the abdication process Dr Basch writes " Maximilian was very careful to see to it that not even the smallest property of the state was touched. He repeatedly sent the strictest orders to Mexico City and VeraCruz that only his personal property be shipped to Europe".
OK even tho Maximilian did not go thru with the abdication was all his personal property sent off to Europe through Veracruz as he had instructed? It seems possible that it could have. To me this seems like a more likely scenero than trying to ship things off thru Texas.
Thanks,Bill
Rebel - KGC
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Re: Maximilian Treasure...
LDM? DUNNO... YOU tell us...
LDM? DUNNO... YOU tell us... 
Cubfan64
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djui5 said:What does this have to do with the Lost Dutchman? Just curious
Was kinda wondering that myself dj. Any reason this topic shouldn't be moved to another spot?
Rebel - KGC
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Re: Maximilian Treasure to be moved... YEAH!!! Treasure Legends!!!
GOOD idea! OK by me...
GOOD idea! OK by me...
Oroblanco
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I third the motion to move this thread into another board. I don't know of any direct connection between Maximilian's treasure w/Lost Dutchman, but there IS a theory about it - perhaps our friend Blindbowman could enlighten us on it, even though he does not support that theory (if memory serves) he has probably heard more about it than I have.
HOLA mi amigo Rebel! How are you doing buddy! Thanks for the kind words too. I tend to agree with that idea too, that the treasure of Victorio peak was Maximilian's treasure, based on several points.
1: the amount of treasure was massive, like one would expect the national treasury of a nation or emperor to have;
2: the location is one of the possible sites which a pack train could have reached in 1867 without encountering either a Republican army unit or an US "Observation Corps" unit (most all were in Texas on the Rio Grande river, east of Vic. peak)
3: among the items found by Doc Noss were several that look suspiciously similar to items owned and used by Carlota, such as the diamond tiara;
I also am not of the opinion that Maximilian personally ordered the treasure removed from the country at all, rather I would sooner believe that it was one of his generals, and is it a coincidence that one of his generals DID in fact manage to slip out of the country? Leonardo Marquez is the general I am referring to - and a little research will turn up some rather interesting tidbits about this fellow. For instance, he was with the Emperor at Queretaro up until ordered by the Emperor to go to the capital city to rally more troops. Marquez apparently did not understand the orders of the Emperor, for we next find him fighting in Puebla, which is actually almost the opposite direction from the capital city!
Marquez lost at Puebla but should we be surprised when he turns up later in Cuba, with over a MILLION DOLLARS (1867 value!) on him? This fellow is the man I believe is REALLY responsible for the disappearance of the treasure, though he appears to have failed to ever recover it - he made sure he had plenty of dineros to support his own retirement.
Anyway just my own take on the available information, and like so many other treasure tales there is plenty of mis-information out there 'muddying up the waters' as they say.
A side note here too - but even just the personal treasure of Maximilian was impressive, and we could include the huge injections of funds from foreign sources such as the $3 million (francs) in gold the Juaristas attempted to capture at the famous battle of Cameron, where 65 Foreign Legionaires fought off over 2000 Juaristas until overwhelmed. Where did that gold go? I suppose it went into the war-chest of the Republican armies of President Juarez. LOTS of money was disappearing in those tumultuous and tragic years 1858-1867 in Mexico, and not much has ever been found.
Good luck and good hunting my friends, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco
HOLA mi amigo Rebel! How are you doing buddy! Thanks for the kind words too. I tend to agree with that idea too, that the treasure of Victorio peak was Maximilian's treasure, based on several points.
1: the amount of treasure was massive, like one would expect the national treasury of a nation or emperor to have;
2: the location is one of the possible sites which a pack train could have reached in 1867 without encountering either a Republican army unit or an US "Observation Corps" unit (most all were in Texas on the Rio Grande river, east of Vic. peak)
3: among the items found by Doc Noss were several that look suspiciously similar to items owned and used by Carlota, such as the diamond tiara;
I also am not of the opinion that Maximilian personally ordered the treasure removed from the country at all, rather I would sooner believe that it was one of his generals, and is it a coincidence that one of his generals DID in fact manage to slip out of the country? Leonardo Marquez is the general I am referring to - and a little research will turn up some rather interesting tidbits about this fellow. For instance, he was with the Emperor at Queretaro up until ordered by the Emperor to go to the capital city to rally more troops. Marquez apparently did not understand the orders of the Emperor, for we next find him fighting in Puebla, which is actually almost the opposite direction from the capital city!
Marquez lost at Puebla but should we be surprised when he turns up later in Cuba, with over a MILLION DOLLARS (1867 value!) on him? This fellow is the man I believe is REALLY responsible for the disappearance of the treasure, though he appears to have failed to ever recover it - he made sure he had plenty of dineros to support his own retirement.
Anyway just my own take on the available information, and like so many other treasure tales there is plenty of mis-information out there 'muddying up the waters' as they say.
A side note here too - but even just the personal treasure of Maximilian was impressive, and we could include the huge injections of funds from foreign sources such as the $3 million (francs) in gold the Juaristas attempted to capture at the famous battle of Cameron, where 65 Foreign Legionaires fought off over 2000 Juaristas until overwhelmed. Where did that gold go? I suppose it went into the war-chest of the Republican armies of President Juarez. LOTS of money was disappearing in those tumultuous and tragic years 1858-1867 in Mexico, and not much has ever been found.
Good luck and good hunting my friends, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Roy,
"I third the motion to move this thread into another board. I don't know of any direct connection between Maximilian's treasure w/Lost Dutchman, but there IS a theory about it - perhaps our friend Blindbowman could enlighten us on it, even though he does not support that theory (if memory serves) he has probably heard more about it than I have."
I should think, if you give BB a few days to recover, he will find the thread that connects the two.
Take care,
Joe
"I third the motion to move this thread into another board. I don't know of any direct connection between Maximilian's treasure w/Lost Dutchman, but there IS a theory about it - perhaps our friend Blindbowman could enlighten us on it, even though he does not support that theory (if memory serves) he has probably heard more about it than I have."
I should think, if you give BB a few days to recover, he will find the thread that connects the two.
Take care,
Joe
Rebel - KGC
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Re: Maximilian Treasure...
The "thread"... is GOLD! And Jewelry!! 
The "thread"... is GOLD! And Jewelry!! 
Salvor6
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The moderators won't move this thread no matter how much you beg. They will delete your post in an instant but no move. Hey, lets start a discussion about Atlantis. Has it been found?
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