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[djui5]

Placer always starts as ore

Perhaps Jake was just cleaning up massacre gold?

Waltz described a mine, in detail. Even though it's never been found as far as we know, he did have a vivid description of it.

 

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[somehiker]

Waltz described a mine, in detail. Even though it's never been found as far as we know, he did have a vivid description of it.

Hi Randy:

That he did. And of Mexican miners as well. And caches he had made of ore from his mine.
Whereas he could have easily told a tale of finding his gold scattered throughout some remote area of the mountains....but he didn't.
He also could have claimed it was from a rich outcropping, removed and cached for later retrieval....but he didn't.
And if the story the Peralta Massacre was well known in his day, and as he lay dying of pneumonia,he could also have simply confessed he had found his ore where the Mexicans were slaughtered. But he didn't say that either....did he ?
If he had, his friends and others who searched for the rest of their days would have been scouring those mountains for massacre gold.
But they weren't....they were looking for a mine, were they not ?

Regards:Wayne

 

[sgtfda]

Or he could have said nothing

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Waltz described a mine, in detail. Even though it's never been found as far as we know, he did have a vivid description of it.

Got Provenance

 

[somehiker]

Or he could have said nothing

It's hard for someone who finds gold to say nothing.
But perhaps he should have.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I am at work right now and don't have source material here. These are things you should already know if you have done a lot of research on the subject. I remember most of the facts I have found, I just don't remember all the source material. One thing I do remember is how I categorized the information (BS, Hearsay, Might Be, Good Chance, Definite). Might have come from the Petrasch Family. Sounds like something he would have told Rhiney. Maybe Dick Holmes. Since quotes directly from Waltz are from very few people, it narrows down the possibilities.

Mike

Home yet?

 

[coazon de oro]

I have stated that very thing.....for years.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Perhaps you have been wrong for years?

Howdy Joe, hope you are doing better. Massacre gold was already as clean as could be after going through the arrastras. No one could change it back to look like the rich ore that Old Jake had under his bed.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Or he could have said nothing

Howdy Sarge,

As Wayne said, it's hard for someone who finds gold to say nothing. Old Jake boasted about his mine, and later confessed it's location. He could have kept quiet, but he couldn't, you could have kept quiet about your gold, but you couldn't, you had to show the world. I could have kept quiet, but I couldn't.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Perhaps you have been wrong for years?

Howdy Joe, hope you are doing better. Massacre gold was already as clean as could be after going through the arrastras. No one could change it back to look like the rich ore that Old Jake had under his bed.

Homar

No shortage of opinions to consider Homar.
But I wonder how the Massacre Gold ties in to the pit mine way over by Iron Mountain ?
At least for those who see the Massacre Site as the source of Waltz's gold ore.
And even the folks who illegaly dug out that particular hole did talk about it eventually.

Where did you happen to read that the gold found at the Massacre Grounds had been worked in arrastras ?
I don't recall hearing that one before now.
Or are you speculating because of the grinders that were found in Marsh Valley ?

Regards:SH.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Wayne,

I don't see how massacre gold could be made to tie with a worked out silver mine by Iron Mountain. Many try to pull the wool over your eyes, just to be recognized, but you are aware that the Dutchman clues do not fit that area. The Peralta were heading to Sonora, if they had been heading out from the Iron Mountain area, the massacre would have been due south from there.

The Peraltas had their arrastras by the Salt River close to Campo Mayor, which I believe to be Tortilla Flat. These arrastras got covered by water when the dam was built. In my opinion, they used the Apache Trail to get around the mountains out to Sonora.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Yes Homar, I know about the 'rasters and other stuff at Tortilla (above) and Mormon Flats (below the waters of Canyon Lake), but chose to mention Marsh Valley because it is closer to the Massacre site and was said to have been at the end of the trail of human remains which indicated a running battle. As to Massacre Gold and"Pit Mine" Gold being one and the same and also a match for LDM Gold, I agree that scenario would be unlikely but not impossible. We all have taken note of how the many stories we have discussed over the years have changed with each telling and the tale of the Pit mine has as well. But it's up to those promoting the connection to explain their theories, not you or I.
The "Legend of The Superstition Mountains" series may or may not answer these questions. Perhaps it will raise even more for us to discuss in the coming months.

Regards:Wayne

 

[djui5]

Got Provenance

Sure, how about Waltz to Rhiney/Julia? From there we have documented testimony. I'd say that's sufficent.

Howdy Wayne,

I don't see how massacre gold could be made to tie with a worked out silver mine by Iron Mountain. Many try to pull the wool over your eyes, just to be recognized, but you are aware that the Dutchman clues do not fit that area. The Peralta were heading to Sonora, if they had been heading out from the Iron Mountain area, the massacre would have been due south from there.

What if they worked a multitude of mines? Like ant hills all over central AZ? Say they all gathered near Florence Junction for the trip home to Mexico. It makes sense if you thinks about it. Why travel 2500 miles to work one mine? There are tons of Gold/Silver mines in Mexico.

Just a thought.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Randy,
That's a good thought, and as they say anything is possible, but here are my thoughts. Even though there tons of Gold/Silver mines in Mexico, they could only mine the ones that belonged to them. Even with all the mines they may have owned in Sonora, I doubt that they could even come close to matching the production of the LDM. You know that it's ore has been assayed at over 5329 opt when a good gold mine averages just .5 opt. That makes 2500 miles seem like a cake walk.

The portal however was said to be the size of a pickle barrel, until Jake widened it, so they couldn't get very many workers in there. In the mean time they probably worked other mines in the area, thus the need for several arrastras. They never recorded any of the mines, which leads me to believe that they may have been helping the Jesuits? Several arrastras tell the story of several mines.

Some may say that that there is no proof that the LDM was a Peralta mine, but in my opinion there is more proof that it was.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

According to the massacre legend, the Gonzalas Family was the other major player in the story, abandoning the Peralta group to their fate.
It is the Waltz/Weiser/Miguel Peralta chapter of the LDM saga which introduces us to both the Peralta massacre and it's connection to the LDM/Sombrero mine and map. Lee Paul included all of this in his LDM article....Dutchman's Lost Mine.
However, we shouldn't be derailing this thread with such debate, since it should be focused more on the series.
But if you've seen the most recent preview for the program, and it's claim that the range was first visited by and named "Superstition" by Coronado, you will also recognize the words of Lee Paul.............https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152505732666184

"The story of gold in the Superstitions dates back centuries. Francisco Vasquez de Coronado challenged the forbidden peaks when he came north from Mexico in 1540 seeking the legendary Seven Golden Cities of Cibola. Several members of his band died searching for gold in the mountains, and like victims right up to recent years, their bodies were found headless by their companions. Although Coronado hurried onward to discover the Grand Canyon, the story of legendary hidden gold in the canyons persisted."

Regards:SH.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Sure, how about Waltz to Rhiney/Julia? From there we have documented testimony. I'd say that's sufficent.

I hate to have to ask, but what is the reference/original source? What exactly is claimed to have been said (hearsay anyway) and who makes that claim in what documentation?

What if they worked a multitude of mines? Like ant hills all over central AZ? Say they all gathered near Florence Junction for the trip home to Mexico. It makes sense if you thinks about it. Why travel 2500 miles to work one mine? There are tons of Gold/Silver mines in Mexico.

Just a thought.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Howdy Randy,
That's a good thought, and as they say anything is possible, but here are my thoughts. Even though there tons of Gold/Silver mines in Mexico, they could only mine the ones that belonged to them. Even with all the mines they may have owned in Sonora, I doubt that they could even come close to matching the production of the LDM. You know that it's ore has been assayed at over 5329 opt when a good gold mine averages just .5 opt. That makes 2500 miles seem like a cake walk.

The portal however was said to be the size of a pickle barrel, until Jake widened it, so they couldn't get very many workers in there.

LOL !! Assuming any truth at all to any of it, what would stop this hoard of miners from doing what jake supposedly did single handed??

In the mean time they probably worked other mines in the area, thus the need for several arrastras. They never recorded any of the mines, which leads me to believe that they may have been helping the Jesuits? Several arrastras tell the story of several mines.

Some may say that that there is no proof that the LDM was a Peralta mine, but in my opinion there is more proof that it was.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

LOL !! Assuming any truth at all to any of it, what would stop this hoard of miners from doing what jake supposedly did single handed??

Howdy Amigo,

If you have to assume that there is any truth at all to any of what I stated, you really need to study up on the subject before trying to debate at all. It would eliminate the need to repeat what is common knowledge over, and over. I for one have never asked a single question about the LDM, or PSM's clues. Every statement that I made to form my opinion is either common knowledge, or can be understood with common sense. I can always back up what I say, some times I will only do it via pm, but I will prove what I state.

Many Mexican mines found in the area are narrow, rock is worthless. When they came in 1846-47 for what could be a last dig, the war was on, so they were pressed for time. Old Jake worked one winter on widening the shaft for a depth of six feet, and a width of two, and a half by two, and a half feet to cover it. That is still only room for one man. With a hoard of miners, you could only get one man at a time to do what Jake did, and accomplish nothing. Taking turns on the vein yielded the best results.

I don't like to be out of topic, but I also don't like to leave a question unanswered. Watch the upcoming show, and hopefully many of your questions will get answered. My hope is that they at least prove that the Superstitions are mineralized.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

"LOL !! Assuming any truth at all to any of it, what would stop this hoard of miners from doing what jake supposedly did single handed??"

Wazzat...a trick question ?

The MASSACRE stopped them....ROTFLMAO !!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

"LOL !! Assuming any truth at all to any of it, what would stop this hoard of miners from doing what jake supposedly did single handed??"

Wazzat...a trick question ?

The MASSACRE stopped them....ROTFLMAO !!

Sure, if your contention is that they only 'just' discovered the richest mine of all at the very end of their efforts and decided to pack up and leave rather than mine it. Sure.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Howdy Amigo,

If you have to assume that there is any truth at all to any of what I stated, you really need to study up on the subject

this is me studying, get over it

before trying to debate at all.

pointing out a lunacy is not really debate and needs no expertise. The idea that had the Peraltas had some fantastic mine (which I have no qualms about saying probably never existed - given all known information and simple logic) and allowed a small opening to deter them from efficient utilization is absurd.

It would eliminate the need to repeat what is common knowledge over, and over. I for one have never asked a single question about the LDM, or PSM's clues. Every statement that I made to form my opinion is either common knowledge, or can be understood with common sense. I can always back up what I say, some times I will only do it via pm, but I will prove what I state.

OK, I'lll BYTE. Prove to me that some fantastic LDM mine actually existed, and while you are at it, that Peraltas mined it before Jake.

Many Mexican mines found in the area are narrow, rock is worthless. When they came in 1846-47 for what could be a last dig, the war was on, so they were pressed for time. Old Jake worked one winter on widening to shaft for a depth of six feet, and a width of two, and a half by two, and a half feet to cover it. That is still only room for one man. With a hoard of miners, you could only get one man at a time to what Jake did, and accomplish nothing. Taking turns on the vein yielded the best results.

Only if they were nearly brain dead. Why would poorer mines have utilized larger shafts but the supposed richest of all not? anybody, including the Peraltas would have gone in there with no holds barred, ya know, if it actually ever existed as myth describes.

I don't like to be out of topic, but I also don't like to leave a question unanswered. Watch the upcoming show, and hopefully many of your questions will get answered. My hope is that they at least prove that the Superstitions are mineralized.

Homar