new show on the dutchman

[markmar]

This is the real medicine wheel located in the superstitions!

View attachment 1126439

I believe the Black Cross mark is a critical point which helps to decrypt the Cristobal Peralta survey map .

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[UncleMatt]

If what HarleyMan2's friend said is true, it would seem embellishment has occurred when it comes to the "Black Legion"...

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

We had more of a discussion on it and Tony stated that "Black Legions" were not much around Arizona and that Black Legion myth relating to FULL BREED Apache did not exist. The Apache did not like talking about the Black Legion or any other bands of mixed race, as they were not of full pure Apache race.

The real question is;

So is the "Black Legion" a white man made up myth because they could not call them or identify them of anything else?

 

[wrmickel1]

Well, I'm so inclined to agree with Harley,s finding, its woven into native culture around here to, Except only a living thing such as a horse or brave can where the mark of the hand, to channel energy of mother earth, But to mark mother earth with a hand is bad, it means you have no regard for the spirit world.

Wrmickel1.

 

[Aric]

so did JW go back at some point and vist, or did JW send letters
if it was letters, do they still have them,and could we see them
have you started a thread to share all the info you have on JW
and ive missed it

Waltz never returned to Germany. I have no letters. I have never heard about any letters from Waltz. I have never started any thread about my information that I have collected. The information I have is from his great great nephews & nieces. They are quite old, they are all well over 80 years now.

 

[somehiker]

Sorry to sound ignorant. What makes that a medicine wheel? I mean is this an archeological interpretation of the stones or an educated guess? It's a symbol that I have seen used before but not used as a medicine wheel. In the sense of healing.

The spokes or arms don't by chance align to the four directions do they?

The word "medicine" really needs to be defined as understood by those who adapted it to describe their beliefs. "Big medicine" vs. white medicine. Not quite the same thing.

Keep in mind the Apache migrated south from the North West, where other tribes as well as those on the plains built similar wheels with different meanings given to each segment or "spoke". Some were aligned to celestial observances, ie: the "Medicine Mountain" wheel in Wyoming. Some, including the Apache so far as I know, call it "the circle of life", rather than "medicine wheel". The one in the photo which vastterrain posted is aligned to the four directions. Jim Hatt told me it's location had been known since at least the 1930's, and that it was old even then. Having been there several times myself, I see no reason to question his story.

 

[chlsbrns]

It's another one of those things that you have to believe! If I believed in a treasure and thought I was in the right location a hand print sure wouldnt have stopped me!

One of the Most Pervasive Myths Surrounding the Superstition Mountains to This Very Day is the Legend of the Black Legion

 

[UncleMatt]

Legends often persist simply because they sound dramatic and are entertaining...

 

[wrmickel1]

I've been into the Supers countless time at least 40 times so I guess not countless but in all the trips I've never seen a native American there, Not as a hiker or any other reason.

So I'd say the black legion thing is debunked!

So the show is helping us filter the Legends Of The Superstitions.

Wrmickel1

 

[cw0909]

Waltz never returned to Germany. I have no letters. I have never heard about any letters from Waltz. I have never started any thread about my information that I have collected. The information I have is from his great great nephews & nieces. They are quite old, they are all well over 80 years now.

im sorry i should have asked: did JW send his great great nephews & nieces letters
and thats ,how they have obtained what ever info they have on JW and his mine
if JW sent them letters do they still have the letters
and thank you for answering my questions

 

[UncleMatt]

Waltz never returned to Germany. I have no letters. I have never heard about any letters from Waltz. I have never started any thread about my information that I have collected. The information I have is from his great great nephews & nieces. They are quite old, they are all well over 80 years now.

We all look forward to what information you have to share.

 

[Hal Croves]

Keep in mind the Apache migrated south from the North West, where other tribes as well as those on the plains built similar wheels with different meanings given to each segment or "spoke". Some were aligned to celestial observances, ie: the "Medicine Mountain" wheel in Wyoming. Some, including the Apache so far as I know, call it "the circle of life", rather than "medicine wheel". The one in the photo which vastterrain posted is aligned to the four directions. Jim Hatt told me it's location had been known since at least the 1930's, and that it was old even then. Having been there several times myself, I see no reason to question his story.

View attachment 1126505 View attachment 1126506

Great post.
How big is it?

 

[cw0909]

found a pg with replay times for the shows, i have to watch on demand, as TWC
wont let me on the net, prob because twc has the on demand feature

Legend of the Superstition Mountains Episode Guide - Season 1 - HISTORY.com

 

[somehiker]

I've been into the Supers countless time at least 40 times so I guess not countless but in all the trips I've never seen a native American there, Not as a hiker or any other reason.

So I'd say the black legion thing is debunked!

So the show is helping us filter the Legends Of The Superstitions.

Wrmickel1

It ain't easy to filter the mud that's bein slung, Mick....
But the shows found quite a following, and it's giving us plenty to talk about.
Which is a good thing .....I think.

I've seen native americans out there on three occasions. The first at Tortilla Flat, which was no surprise, since any driving from White Mountain or San Carlos might choose Hwy 88 to head over to the Phoenix area for shopping etc. The second time a group of 5 or 6 who seemed to be just out hiking around and pokin at things like anyone else would. The third time was three of them panning a couple of tanks in a little canyon, where I snuck in and watched them and listened for a bit before carrying on with my hike. Went back later with a friend and found where they had left a small trowel behind.....and a big fat rattlesnake waiting for us. Only sure that one of those three was native though, and not sure that any but the first two at TF were Apache.
Can't remember for sure, but only a couple of them were wearing anything black.



BTW....there's a black handprint in the photo of the mine I posted on the other thread.
But it's smaller than my own hand, so I guess I don't have to worry as much as the guys in the show.

 

[somehiker]

Great post.
How big is it?

121 inches on the centerline of the circle.

 

[wrmickel1]

I don't know about any Black Legion but you can be sure that native groups have their own secret societies. If there is a secret to keep, one of historical importance, they have been given more than enough reason to keep it.

I'm not so inclined to believe that Hal, If native groups had secrets of wealth they would surely use it, like casino's they create a lot of wealth for them and they use them a lot. So if they had secret mines and hidden caches they would use them as well,

Wrmickel1

 

[Aric]

im sorry i should have asked: did JW send his great great nephews & nieces letters
and thats ,how they have obtained what ever info they have on JW and his mine
if JW sent them letters do they still have the letters
and thank you for answering my questions

I would visit them separately at times in the afternoon and ask them if they had any more knowledge of the mine to start with. The nieces always had more information than the nephews. They have told me that the mine did face the west. Waltz could ride half way to the mine, and have to walk the rest of the way to the mine, because it was such of a rough area of the mountains. Waltz said he could get to the mine by lunch sometimes. Waltz said it was once owned by a Mexican at one time, and he bought the mine from a Mexican. One of the nieces told me that Waltz built a stone house over the mine to hide it. I don't think when I was talking to them that they obtained they're information directly from Waltz in letters, I think it they received letters from Waltz sister. That's why the nieces had most of the information. The nieces would ask me why I wanted all of this old information. I told them I wanted to see if I could find this mine. The last information that I have from them and it is this. They all told me it would be easier to find the gold he has hidden. They said he hid most of his gold going home, and that it was half way between his house and the mine. This is all of the information that I have from the nieces & nephews.

 

[gollum]

I've been into the Supers countless time at least 40 times so I guess not countless but in all the trips I've never seen a native American there, Not as a hiker or any other reason.

So I'd say the black legion thing is debunked!

So the show is helping us filter the Legends Of The Superstitions.

Wrmickel1

Wrmickel1,

Don't be so quick to dismiss Black Legion Stories. I have never found Joe to lie or exaggerate his stories.

Read this first:

BLACK LEGION

Its a good read. The part about Ed Piper is absolutely true. Ed never gave a lot of detail to anybody about the situation (that I know of), but every year, the Apache would ask him to leave the mountains so they could conduct some secret tribal business in the mountains in the area of Weaver's Needle where Ed's Camp was. I hadn't heard that it was the Black Legion that made him leave. I had heard that the Apache just asked for him to respect their traditions and allow them their privacy (in whatever it was they were doing) and he complied. Ed Piper was not a Dutch Hunter exactly. As a child, Piper was bounced on the knee of an old Indian. He was told stories of a rich Indian Treasure hidden near a big peak in the mountains East of Phoenix, Az. That treasure was supposed to have been hidden by the Jesuits. He went to Arizona to find that treasure.

Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

Wrmickel1,

Don't be so quick to dismiss Black Legion Stories. I have never found Joe to lie or exaggerate his stories.

Read this first:

BLACK LEGION

Its a good read. The part about Ed Piper is absolutely true. Ed never gave a lot of detail to anybody about the situation (that I know of), but every year, the Apache would ask him to leave the mountains so they could conduct some secret tribal business in the mountains in the area of Weaver's Needle where Ed's Camp was. I hadn't heard that it was the Black Legion that made him leave. I had heard that the Apache just asked for him to respect their traditions and allow them their privacy (in whatever it was they were doing) and he complied. Ed Piper was not a Dutch Hunter exactly. As a child, Piper was bounced on the knee of an old Indian. He was told stories of a rich Indian Treasure hidden near a big peak in the mountains East of Phoenix, Az. That treasure was supposed to have been hidden by the Jesuits. He went to Arizona to find that treasure.

Mike

Interesting and I'm familiar with the story and I find Joe to be a pretty straight shooter! But I do believe the story got twisted some where in translation, There was another guy who told me similar story (mid-eighties) who fixed boats can't remember his name, I think he's past on a few years back. But he did tell me where start was. But what he didn't realize is that his start was depicted on the stone maps and neither did I till five years ago or so. I kindda just blew it off back then because I lived fully intoxicated 24/7 in those eighty's. But if your interested in a photo to prove it or to say I'm wrong I'm game for that, Judge for your self. PM me with a email to send the photo And I'll send it.

Wrmickel1 I do believe the stone's to be solvable with with the right people on board with no secretes.

Wrmickel1

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

Well, I have been keeping a secret for a very long time! Here is my photo of my Dog Rock I found just a couple of miles from my house here in Texas. Even though the story attached claims the story is bogus I will tell you all, it is not! This is not some picture I pulled from the internet. I posted this picture of a "Dog Rock" I found while out metal detecting and it is on one of my finds posted here on this forum.

The Dog Rock I found is the actual head of the Cocker Spaniel that the family buried which brings great wealth as well as ward of anyone trying to steal any of my treasures.


Here is the story to support my findings of "Dog Rock"!

http://www.historicalbany.com.au/dogrockarticle.pdf