new show on the dutchman

[gollum]

Point 1. I read the book. Glover made a decent case that the ore did not match the selected ore samples saved from a part of the Vulture Mine, as I recall, and maybe some other grab samples saved from some of the the Gila/Salt area mines. Fine and dandy. PERIOD.

The rest of your statement implies that the "LDM sample" was matched against samples from "all known mines", which is absurd. In the first place, where exactly is this database and/or ore sample collection that includes all these known mines? Mines from CA, AZ, NM, MX, CO, et al? Hundreds of mines, many of them with different geology in different parts of the same mine. Possibly thousands of potential matches. Who exactly was it that collected these samples and stored them, and where are they available for analysis? Glover didn't provide these details.

Secondly, and more to the point, why would anyone believe that all the point sources of rich ore with visible gold showing (picture rock) from the early Anglo period are known? There were thousands of small mines, glory holes, shallow prospects, etc that yielded picture rock in various quantities. Hell, there's an old Spanish/Mexican glory hole ten minutes from my house that has never even been claimed that yielded several pounds of thick wire-gold as recently as 40 years ago. The hole was never more than six feet deep. The matchbox ore is terrific stuff, sure, but by no means unique. Not even close.

Point 2. That's right, speculating, like everyone else, including your last paragraph above. I don't know what the ant people reference is that you're braying about, but I do know my speculations are at least plausible. Neither you nor I know for certain what happened (I notice you haven't provided one of your guarantees) - that's why folks are still discussing the topic.

HAHAHA Too bad you missed a goodly chunk of the back and forth with CHLSBRNS.

Nothing absurd about it. The reason the SEM Testing can be compared to mines outside Az is that almost every known mine has done ore testing and there are databases consisting of testing done to almost every known mine. Those results can be accessed to compare the results of any SEM Test against everything in the database. Several Mining Schools have those databases (or at least access to them). Since we are into semantics now, I should have used the phrase "every tested known mine".

Also, Joseph Porterie who originally assayed Dick Holmes' Ore stated without a doubt that the ore was both all from the same source and that none of it was from The Vulture (where he was Chief Assayer).

Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

Kochera's Gold- Peter's Mesa

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Haywood Story.pdf


View attachment 1126688

View attachment 1126689

Photo of a piece of Kochera's gold found on Peter's Mesa. Photo found on the internet:
View attachment 1126690

pkdmalf,

The man who took the pictures of the Kochera ore, told me he "knew" the Kochera ore came from the Pit Mine above Roger's Canyon. He, along with another man was taken to the mine prior to it being worked. IMHO, he was in a position to know.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

HAHAHA Too bad you missed a goodly chunk of the back and forth with CHLSBRNS.

Nothing absurd about it. The reason the SEM Testing can be compared to mines outside Az is that almost every known mine has done ore testing and there are databases consisting of testing done to almost every known mine. Those results can be accessed to compare the results of any SEM Test against everything in the database. Several Mining Schools have those databases (or at least access to them). Since we are into semantics now, I should have used the phrase "every tested known mine".

Also, Joseph Porterie who originally assayed Dick Holmes' Ore stated without a doubt that the ore was both all from the same source and that none of it was from The Vulture (where he was Chief Assayer).

Mike

Mike: If by "semantics" you mean that the scope of the ore database is severely limited, then yeah, we agree. And, yeah again - the ore wasn't from the Vulture Mine. PERIOD, as you say. Cross the Vulture off the list.

By the way, do you have a link to that database that you described?

chlsbrns: Yes, I'm well aware of Hopi mythology. Uh ... you're referring to those ant people? Trading gold for salt? Seriously? Why would the ant guys do that? There's a huge rock salt deposit under the west side of Phoenix. Seems like they'd go get their own.

 

[chlsbrns]

Actually no. It's not that I believed it. I posted that years ago in response to some absurd ldm claims that were posted.

The reality is that there is more provence for ant people than the ldm. Not for trading salt for gold but for ant people.

 

[cactusjumper]

PKDMSLF,

You have put a mark in a quietly well known area. Many people before you find that area very interesting. Many years ago, I said virtually the same thing. I theorized that many of the stories that lead people to the Weaver's Needle Area were made up by locals trying to keep the Tourist Dutch Hunters away from where they thought the LDM was. Which was somewhere in the Black Mountain/Peter's Mesa/Tortilla Mountain Area. When I said that, a few older Dutch Hunters got very quiet. A couple confided in me that I had chosen a very interesting place to put my "X". It was a prime spot for Peter, MK Roberts, Jim Hatt, and several others. That is the reason why about 90% of my trips into the Supers have been to that area from a couple of different directions.

Without looking up the story for specifics, I remember a conversation regarding Adolph Ruth and Peter's Mesa. Joe (Cactusjumper), please correct me if I have misremembered any of the story. Adolph Ruth disappeared from his camp in 1931. Nine months later, his skull first, then skeleton later were found about a half a mile apart. The story is that Tex Barkley found Ruth's body in a place where he knew there were LDM Monuments, and didn't want a bunch of people nosing around. From what I remember of the story, Barkley said it looked like Ruth was sitting on a rock and was shot as he was turning around. He then moved the body to where it was later found by Brownie Holmes and the archaeological party. A very interesting thing to think about is Brownie Holmes' description of the skeleton. He stated that the skull was "green", meaning that small bits of flesh were still visible on it. A skull sitting on the ground for nine months would be both dry and barren of ANY flesh. First animals would have scavenged the body, then bugs would have stripped any remaining flesh. Seems like Ruth was buried then dug up and deposited where the archaeological party would find it. Another part of the story is that he talked about Ruth being shot with a big bore gun, and suddenly Hermann Petrasch's pistol turns up missing.

Mike

Mike,

It could just be an honest mistake, but you may want to reread page 8 of Ely's book. At the bottom of the page you will find this: "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor, one of the dogs came upon a skull........"

Now I could chalk that up to a confused old man.....nearing death, but there is more. I told Gene Reynolds my theory that Ely had, mistakenly, told the truth here. I further told him that I believed I had found the area that Ely was describing. He asked if I could see Weaver's Needle from there, and I told him you could. He mentioned that Ruth was looking for a particular view of the Needle and he knew what that view was. He asked if I had a picture from there of the Needle.

Because we had found claim markers all over that area, I had taken a number of pictures. I sent them to him.



He told me this was the view that Ruth was looking for.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

SDCFIA,

I will have to find it. I believe I originally found out about it through contacting The Colorado School of Mines. I think that over the years, I have found more than one source. There are databases of animal hairs, dna, plant seeds, porn, and everything else under the sun that someone thinks might be important to correlate. I wouldn't use the term "severely limited". I would think the only restrictions would be those that the individual mine owners might place on distribution of their information.

Joe,

That view is very interesting.



VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY INTERESTING!

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Yes........Even Ruth could have made that short (easy) hike.

Joe

 

[gollum]

I would say about a quarter mile to the right should give a perfect match to Waltz Drawing.

Mike

 

[DiggerGal]

SDCFIA,

I agree that anybody's decision to investigate or hunt the LDM should be based on ALL the evidence currently known (Good and Bad). Its called making an informed decision. HAHAHA

That said, you aren't taking many things into account. One of the most important are the modern tests that were performed on samples of known Superstition Gold by SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) through the efforts of Dr Thomas Glover for his book on the LDM. The ore tested does not match any ore from any known mine. PERIOD. The person that did the tests stated that the ore was from an unknown source. If Waltz didn't have a mine, and his ore was from places he previously worked, it would not be an unknown source. He worked at the Hydraulic Mines in the San Gabriel Canyon in California (about 5 miles from where I am sitting), and the Bradshaw Mountains in Arizona. The California Operation where he worked was all placer and would not be that kind of ore (mostly nuggets maybe with a small bit of quartz attached). Maybe from the Bradshaws, but Porterie would have known what Bradshaw Ore looked like. Also, the modern SEM Tests would have spotted Bradshaw Ore.

He also told Julia and Rhiney both that he had made three caches of the same rich gold ore and stashed them not far from his mine "you can't find my mine without knowing where the caches are, and you can't find the caches without knowing where my mine is..."

You are also making some serious assumptions about Waltz' Character based on nothing documented. But like you state "speculating":



There is just as much probability in that as there is for the story about Waltz trading salt for gold with the Ant People that live in tunnels under the Supers. HAHAHA People who rob and steal, don't just stop robbing and stealing. They usually find that robbing and stealing is a much easier way to make money than working for it. They are only stopped when they are caught or killed (...or meet a good woman in the case of "The Unforgiven"). No, I think that if Waltz had stolen the candlebox ore, we would have heard about him robbing other miners in the area. He would probably have been arrested for it, or killed because of it. The only story about Waltz intentionally murdering people was in The Holmes Manuscript, but that entire thing is suspect because George Holmes stated unequivocally that he didn't write it. There are also some pretty big factual inaccuracies. Other than that, he admitted killing two Mexican Peons believing they were Indians at the site of his mine.

Mike

"He also told Julia and Rhiney both that he had made three caches of the same rich gold ore and stashed them not far from his mine "you can't find my mine without knowing where the caches are, and you can't find the caches without knowing where my mine is..."

This is one part that intrigues me (all of it does really), however, this quote from Mr. waltz leads me to believe that there is truth in that his Cache is buried "half way to his mine from his house"
To me, I would think; if we knew Mr. Waltz' direction of travel, we would find the cache. It leads me to think its not in the open, and not widely traveled, but by him, it was the same point of travel every trip. If it took him a day to get to his mine, (sun up to sun down) then it would be approximately 6 hours from his house in the direction of the mine.
I have read that his paths to the mine would change to throw people off his trail, but given his statement as quoted above, I believe that there is a crossing point that remained the same on every trip, another "X" so to speak.
I'm in no way as educated with the LDM as you or others here, just offering an opinion...AND, I'm enjoying the education.

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,

I will have to find it. I believe I originally found out about it through contacting The Colorado School of Mines. I think that over the years, I have found more than one source. There are databases of animal hairs, dna, plant seeds, porn, and everything else under the sun that someone thinks might be important to correlate. I wouldn't use the term "severely limited". I would think the only restrictions would be those that the individual mine owners might place on distribution of their information.

Thanks - I'd be interested in seeing that kind of data. I can imagine that some operating mines in more recent times may have participated in such a program, but surprised to see much 19th century data at all. Almost all of the really good specimens ended up in public and private collections, via high-grading. I'd be shocked if more than 1% of all "picture rock ore sources" beginning ca 1860 were represented.

 

[pkdmslf]

Greenbhorn19,

Here's a good listing of books.

Tale of the Lost Dutchman: bibliography, notes and chronology

The books "I" definitely stay away from and wouldn't waste money on are written by Mitchell Waite. Some of his stuff makes him sound like
he's in the Twilight Zone. Also, be wary of a lot of the "self published" books.

 

[gollum]

MUS1K4U,


Welcome to the discussion. I have to tell you that since nobody (to my knowledge) has found the LDM yet, almost every opinion has validity (I have to leave a bit of wiggle room so I can ignore aliens, Elvis, and Bigfoot in relation to the LDM).


What I took away from Waltz statement is that the cache site is in view of the mine (if you know where to look).


Mike

 

[azdave35]

Greenbhorn19,

Here's a good listing of books.

Tale of the Lost Dutchman: bibliography, notes and chronology

The books "I" definitely stay away from and wouldn't waste money on are written by Mitchell Waite. Some of his stuff makes him sound like
he's in the Twilight Zone. Also, be wary of a lot of the "self published" books.

i hate to tell you this but mitch has spent more time in the supers than anyone here...he is a very knowledgeable guy..he has forgot more about the mountains than most will ever know

 

[wrmickel1]

i hate to tell you this but mitch has spent more time in the supers than anyone here...he is a very knowledgeable guy..he has forgot more about the mountains than most will ever know

Well that just might be true Dave, But none the less his stuff is pretty far and whacked.

Wrmickel1

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

OK, I guess after my comments previously about what I believe about what I saw on the show and some of the comments on "Black Legion", "NEW" black hand print myths. I will go on to something else, for all you LDM guys who have been searching just about all your life in looking for the LDM.

So here is my question, please, I would enjoy reading some responses.

People have been looking for the LDM for what, about a 100 years, plus? From what I read and postings here, books published, shows, etc. How many people here that "think" X amount of people have looked for it since Jacob Waltz died? Estimated numbers would really be good for the "X amount" people think have searched for it. But no one has found it!

Now with that said, lets talk about "X amount" of the population of people living in or near the wilderness area that has searched for it, you know like local people of Arizona. But yet again, no one has found it!

It isn't like you have 10,000 people searching all across the United States and Canada. We are talking about an area that really isn't all that big compared to the many people who have been out there covering every inch of it looking for the LDM or even the Peralta's/Gonzalez's mines.

Now I won't go into what I know can be done because of my job with the Army and I won't divulge into it so don't ask! You don't need to be in the military to get the equipment. But with that said, many here has known about it for some many years, (especially those who have been in the military), "IR" Infra Red. So with the technology we have had in the last decade plus. Why is it all these people searching for the estimated $200,000,000.00 in gold/gold ore still buried in some cave, mine, whatever can't seem to find out where it is at and can't find a needle in a haystack that would be so easy using IR? With IR, any heat signatures to include IR of specific metals can be found and at great depths below any surface of the earth to include "voids", (caverns), underground! It has been done and proven, but yet, it appears no one wants to use the technology to find it.

Hell, if I knew I could possibly walk out with over 1 million in gold/gold ore at the minimum so I could be wealthy and make a name for myself as finding the LDM, it would not bother me one bit to spend $10,000, $50,000, or even $100,000 for IR equipment and a few days rental for a pilot and an airplane!

Just saying!

So what's the "real scoop" on why no one is "REALLY INTERESTED" in finding it? Some that have been searching their whole lives for it has just that kind of money to spend to get the technology to get it.

Let's leave out the "it is guarded", "it is protected", "everyone getting close to it dies" excuses. Lets hear cold hard facts.

 

[pkdmslf]

i hate to tell you this but mitch has spent more time in the supers than anyone here...he is a very knowledgeable guy..he has forgot more about the mountains than most will ever know

I'll agree he has spent a lot of time in the mountains and he has taken a lot of photos for his books but some of the subjects and his personal interpretations make him appear to be a little bit out there based on a few books of his that I've read.

I don't mean any disrespect, just "my" personal observations.

 

[Kauziamos]

in my opinion, the best book you can read is the Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely. He was there, he interviewed Julia and Rhiney, both him and Jim Bark. He got the info from them directly. They were the only ones, besides Dick Holmes, that Waltz talked to. Whether Dick actually talked to Waltz about his mine is highly debated. Anyway, my money is on that book. I've read most of them too.

the candle holder is an awesome find. Someone either bought that thing in Nevada or brought it here from working a mine. Very cool find. The excitement tells me it was a legit find.

Greenhorn 19: Welcome! I too am still oh so green after having joined tnet about 9 months ago. It's already been said, but just get lost in here man, there is so much that people have shared through out these threads. I feel as if I'll never catch up! As for books, I can't speak on which ones to read because I've only read one, but it was thoroughly entertaining: the killer mountains by curt gentry. And here's my little tip for you and anyone looking for books: ESTATE SALES!!! I bought these two and about twenty more (lots of lost Incan stuff) for three bucks! Just gotta keep an eye out.

Randy, totally agree with you. That and the buckle Eric found. Those have been the only times it's seemed non scripted to me. He was as giddy as a schoolgirl with that candle holder; I cracked up when he snatched it back from Frank like, no, gimme, mine!

 

[azdave35]

Well that just might be true Dave, But none the less his stuff is pretty far and whacked.

Wrmickel1

most dutchman hunters i know are pretty much nuts...lol

 

[Oregon Viking]

I have actually thought about going to the Superstition mountains, just.....to look around a bit.
Sure, the history, legends, and those whom pursue said things are part of the lure. The photo ops, the exploration and learning experience alone would be worth the trip!

 

[deducer]

I have actually thought about going to the Superstition mountains, just.....to look around a bit.
Sure, the history, legends, and those whom pursue said things are part of the lure. The photo ops, the exploration and learning experience alone would be worth the trip!

Do it. You won't regret it.