Video - Journey to the Bat Cave

[azdave35]

Ryan,

Enjoyed the Video!

Does anyone know whether you would need to file a mining claim to mine for guano? I guess I would have said yes if the miners were establishing a permanent claim that they were going to be working a significant amount of time.

What's the difference in mining for guano or gold?

Garry

gary...your first hurdle would be getting a permit from the Forrest service..then you'd have to think about it being profitable....there is no road to it and its up on the wall of a canyon...you'd be better off getting a job digging ditches...lol...less work and you'd probably get health insurance and social security

 

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[Hal Croves]

I nominate @Hal Croves He loves doing that type of stuff

Well, I just hope that you appreciate the effort.
The ladder was financed and built in 1862, by a Joe Pepitone.
69 billets were used as were a dozen extra long fascines.
It was a profitable enterprise with a crazy fast zip line excavation process which, was based on one perfected and used in the Grand Canyon by Mormon settlers. Unfortunately, war reached Arizona and the rebels made a push to secure the cave. The confederacy actually ran their submarines on bat guano, so you can see how important the site was. They once had a submarine base in the Salt River for a few months before it was relocated to Mystic CT.

Anyway, Pepitone was killed defending the cave but not before sending Johhny red running for Texas. I have looked hard for his remains, for proof, but it's difficult to sift through the mound.
I believe it anyway.
Not convinced?
Read it for yourself.

 

[Garry]

gary...your first hurdle would be getting a permit from the Forrest service..then you'd have to think about it being profitable....there is no road to it and its up on the wall of a canyon...you'd be better off getting a job digging ditches...lol...less work and you'd probably get health insurance and social security

azblackbird and azdave35,

Thanks for the replies. I should have a little better handle.

The point for me is that there should be a paper trail if it was a guano mine.

I did look around a bit on the Maricopa Recorder's site and with nothing to search on, the task of locating any paper work would be daunting.

The very least would require a narrowing of the timeframe.

Right now there is a reference on DesertUSA that was credited to Joe Ribaudo that he thought it was from a quano mining project in the 1930's. I have also seen the 1940's or 1950's referenced. There is another reference that someone felt the ladder (by appearance) was only 10 or 15 years old. Tom Kollenborn and Jim Hatt visited the site in about 1994 or 1995 and Tom had no recollection of the ladder being there but he later said it must have been. I HOPE I GOT ALL OF THE ABOVE RIGHT!

I'm still lost on what type of equipment would have been used to collect the guano. Large suction hose, shovel and bucket, etc. I'm also still wondering how they got it down. In buckets? Seems pretty slow and tedious for guano. I would have thought it would require a pretty high volume process.

Right now I wouldn't bet a dime, one way or the other, that there was ever a guano mining operation there.

Another thing I may not be understanding but are there signs of a hard rock mine in the cave? Could that have been the reason for the ladder? Is there also a prospect hole down below the cave. Regarding their visit, Tom talked about Jim Hatt exploring some mine below the bat cave?

Did the Forest Service build it to monitor the bats and with the passage of time it's history was lost to the Forest Service?

There well could be paper trails for these other scenarios also.

Where is Somehiker!!!!

Garry

 

[RG1976]

@Garry

I'd be very interested if you could come up with that answer. Having been there 3x now - and seeing the amount of effort it took to create the ladder - I don't believe it was put there "just to check out bats". It's way too much work.

I would imagine that whomever built it, came in from the lake side (opposite way of me in the video) because there are cables going all the way down to the water, similar to the cables shown in my video.

I have never seen any cables going into the actual cave above - but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Could have been cut - dismantled - etc.

There is also quite a few articles online you can find about the confederates farming the guano to assist with the manufacturing of ammunition in the area, but not at this exact location. I believe its a very distinct possibility however, which is why I included that talking point in my video.

Check out this article on wikipedia - it talks about another bat cave up near the Grand Canyon. It speaks about how they harvested the guano, etc. I would imagine the cave in my video would be handled the same way - but could be wrong entirely!

Interesting point in the article - in 1960, Guano sold for $100 / ton Sure is a lot of work for a little bit of money! Especially in "gold country"





Bat Cave mine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[azdave35]

ryan..if that cave was worked for guano it would have probably been in the 1930's during the depression..in those days you were lucky to make a dollar or two a day...alot gold miners in the 30's worked for a few bucks a day..and if you think about it 100 bucks a ton was pretty good money in 1960..most people didnt even make 100 bucks a week....if you could mine a couple tons a week out of there in 1960 would be living high

 

[copperpot]

azblackbird and azdave35,

Thanks for the replies. I should have a little better handle.

The point for me is that there should be a paper trail if it was a guano mine.

I did look around a bit on the Maricopa Recorder's site and with nothing to search on, the task of locating any paper work would be daunting.

The very least would require a narrowing of the timeframe.

Right now there is a reference on DesertUSA that was credited to Joe Ribaudo that he thought it was from a quano mining project in the 1930's. I have also seen the 1940's or 1950's referenced. There is another reference that someone felt the ladder (by appearance) was only 10 or 15 years old. Tom Kollenborn and Jim Hatt visited the site in about 1994 or 1995 and Tom had no recollection of the ladder being there but he later said it must have been. I HOPE I GOT ALL OF THE ABOVE RIGHT!

I'm still lost on what type of equipment would have been used to collect the guano. Large suction hose, shovel and bucket, etc. I'm also still wondering how they got it down. In buckets? Seems pretty slow and tedious for guano. I would have thought it would require a pretty high volume process.

Right now I wouldn't bet a dime, one way or the other, that there was ever a guano mining operation there.

Another thing I may not be understanding but are there signs of a hard rock mine in the cave? Could that have been the reason for the ladder? Is there also a prospect hole down below the cave. Regarding their visit, Tom talked about Jim Hatt exploring some mine below the bat cave?

Did the Forest Service build it to monitor the bats and with the passage of time it's history was lost to the Forest Service?

There well could be paper trails for these other scenarios also.

Where is Somehiker!!!!

Garry

Good research.

We should make the call to "Unsolved Mysteries" and see what they can dig up(no pun intended).

But it is possible that they built the ladder for treasure hunting.

 

[gollum]

Nobody that I know of would go to that much time and effort to build something unless the location already had a purpose.

MIke

 

[copperpot]

Nobody that I know of would go to that much time and effort to build something unless the location already had a purpose.

MIke

Absolutely. Which means it is probably treasure related.

 

[azblackbird]

There is another reference that someone felt the ladder (by appearance) was only 10 or 15 years old. Tom Kollenborn and Jim Hatt visited the site in about 1994 or 1995 and Tom had no recollection of the ladder being there but he later said it must have been.

Mid to late 90's sounds about right. There was a major guano craze going on at that time. 50lb. bags were wholesaling for $200 or more. Those that grew hydroponic weed and the "organic" gardening crowd were more than happy to pay those prices. I guess eventually the numbnuts caught on and figured a $10 bag of 0-45-0 phosphate did the exact same thing for their crops, thus ending the bat guano craze.

 

[gollum]

Absolutely. Which means it is probably treasure related.

The only way that ladder could be treasure related would be if someone had already found treasure up there, and needed a stable way to go up and down. 99.9% certain ladder was built to climb back and forth harvesting guano.

MIke

 

[copperpot]

The only way that ladder could be treasure related would be if someone had already found treasure up there, and needed a stable way to go up and down. 99.9% certain ladder was built to climb back and forth harvesting guano.

MIke

Yes, and that is why the cave is empty, except for the cross in the wall (per the "Show" that is). So if there was a treasure up there, it is cleared out now, and the ladder is no longer needed.

 

[deducer]

Ladder is way too sturdy and robust to have served a short-term purpose such as hauling out treasure. It was built to be there for the long haul.

Anyone intending to clear out treasure would have just free-climbed up there and lowered everything down by rope/pulley with none the wiser. Just building that ladder would have taken much longer.

 

[copperpot]

Ladder is way too sturdy and robust to have served a short-term purpose such as hauling out treasure. It was built to be there for the long haul.

Anyone intending to clear out treasure would have just free-climbed up there and lowered everything down by rope/pulley with none the wiser. Just building that ladder would have taken much longer.

Good point. Unless it was a large quantity, and took ongoing days or weeks to do all of that work, and workers going back and forth. The ladder isn't too high tech from the way it looks.

 

[RG1976]

Anyone intending to clear out treasure would have just free-climbed up there and lowered everything down by rope/pulley with none the wiser.

Disagree - 100%

 

[Azquester]

Apparently, Frank and Woody were spotted near the Bat Ladder cave high tailing it out of there at a high rate of speed on Canyon Lake! Ryan saw them up near the Bat cave and gave chase but they both gave him the slip and made their getaway in a weird looking boat!

Frank and Woody were in disguise trying to fool Ryan during his fact check video but the team was instructed to keep a close eye on Ryan just in case he fell out of the Bat Cave or tried to fabricate some kind of stunt!


These are the photo's of them as the left the area. Both were in goods spirit's but watch out they can be dangerous when it comes to a Joker like Ryan fooling around in their Bat Cave!!




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[pronghorn]

Great job Ryan! 18 minutes that puts 6 episodes to shame.

My opinion on the ladder... If you were gathering guano and depleted the supply from the
base, you send some dare devil up the ladder to scoop out more and send in down to be
gathered at the base. Probably completely wrong.

 

[RG1976]

Apparently, Frank and Woody were spotted near the Bat Ladder cave high tailing it out of there at a high rate of speed on Canyon Lake! Ryan saw them up near the Bat cave and gave chase but they both gave him the slip and made their getaway in a weird looking boat!

Frank and Woody were in disguise trying to fool Ryan during his fact check video but the team was instructed to keep a close eye on Ryan just in case he fell out of the Bat Cave or tried to fabricate some kind of stunt!


These are the photo's of them as the left the area. Both were in goods spirit's but watch out they can be dangerous when it comes to a Joker like Ryan fooling around in their Bat Cave!!




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This forum wouldn't be the same without you!

 

[deducer]

Good point. Unless it was a large quantity, and took ongoing days or weeks to do all of that work, and workers going back and forth. The ladder isn't too high tech from the way it looks.

Even then, why advertise to the entire world that there's something up in the cave by taking your time to build an elaborate ladder?

Much faster to rig a rope and pulley system that's easily hidden when not needed.

 

[RW]

Agree that the ladder was put there for bat purposes, be it guano harvesting or a club of bat enthusiasts or even spelunkers. If I made it that far, I could not resist climbing the ladder unless the smell of ammonia was unbearable. Tie off to the safety rope if ladder feels rickety or afraid of heights. Your video makes the ladder look safer than it did in the series. Someone needs to climb that ladder. Kudos for the effort put forth and thanks for the video.

 

[BVI Hunter]

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