Video - Adventures in the Superstition Wilderness

[releventchair]

He'd a had to haul water to sample sites or haul samples to water to pan right? Sans water a drywasher could ,once decent color located be used to hop skip till color overshot where deposits entered bed from source if hard rock kept it up in reach?

 

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[Hal Croves]

Dry wash for a dry wash? Guessing.

Yes.
Real time in the SWA is limited by what one can carry, just as in Waltz's day.

 

[roadrunner]

As said,maybe using a pan to find a likely spot,then drywash the area,then move upstream.
Rinse and repeat.
Never found the vein.
If my mine where in the East,I would tell everyone in the it was in the West end.
What if Waltz was also Wagoneer using a separate name. To throw people off.
I read,no proof,that once wagoneer was getting on the stage a Whitlow stop,no room on the coach,handed his bag to the driver who dropped it between his legs and the driver said in the frontier home it sounded like a bag of rocks, and was extremely heavy.More than just rocks.

 

[releventchair]

Yes.
Real time in the SWA is limited by what one can carry, just as in Waltz's day.

How did he carry?
I'm picturing a narrow wash and shallow digs above hard rock and quartz showing up with gold or gold not worn down. The ol boy thinking he is close.
Dry washer don't have to be a big affair.Just don't need water.
Here is one from a Treasure Net post.
eb-drywasher

 

[azdave35]

Azblackbird,
Are you able to provide any proof of a Mexican presence in the Superstitions prior to the war? Just one name or historical mention of the fact would be enough but.... physical proof would be something to talk about.
Unfortunately, I seem to fall short every time I look.

your always asking for us to prove something... if you would spend some time in the swa you'd find out for yourself

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

On 8 August,1878 Waltz makes an agreement with Andrew Starar where by Waltz would trade his possessions to Starar in return for care in his old age. No mine is mentioned in his agreement.

James Reavis's first official court action came in October 1882

The official filing of the Reavis claim came on March 27, 1883 in the Tucson office of Surveyor General J.W. Robbins.

Waltz spends most of winter of 83-84 prospecting eastward towards the Superstition Mountains.

1884 Jacob Waltz is reputed to have discovered his mine.?
Seen buying supplies at Mormon store with gold ore.?

1884 Waltz gives Julia Thomas $1600 (approx 50 oz of gold--a little over 4 pounds) in gold to bail out her Bakery/ice cream parlor.

That is some queasy math

Severe flooding of the Salt River had destroyed the Waltz’s homestead and compromised his health.
Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1891 - 12:00pm

Julia Thomas, Rhinehart and Hermann Petrasch departed Phoenix before sunrise on August 11, 1892

Reavis was convicted in January, 1895, and sentenced to six years in the Santa Fe penitentiary.

I'm sure we can argue this timeline. But if correct Waltz had good reason to keep his mine a secret and didnt have his mine when he makes his agreement with Andrew Starar.

In my opinion

 

[azblackbird]

Are you able to provide any proof of a Mexican presence in the Superstitions prior to the war?

All kinds of good reading here that references Mexican mining in AZ during the early 1800's. Even Clay Worst mentions the Mexicans when penning his stories about early mining in AZ. Isn't he supposed to be some sort of LDM God to you Dutch Hunters?

 

[Hal Croves]

your always asking for us to prove something... if you would spend some time in the swa you'd find out for yourself

How much time is some time? Yes, I am always asking people to support what they post with some type of tangible proof where possible. You spoke with some authority on Mexicans and their mining activity in Arizona. Why is it out of line to ask you to demonstrate your proof of Mexican mining in the Superstitions? One name? One mention in the historical record? One DOI recognized Mexican mine (gold hopefully)? It's ok if it's just your opinion and not something you can prove. I was just hoping that you could establish fact where others have failed. Either you can't or you don't want to. Both are fine but it's unrealistic for you to insist that people take your word for it.

 

[sgtfda]

You don't pass up oz's of gold. At least I don't. You hit a hot spot you work it. All this takes time. Gold is gold. You can dry pan with a gold pan. There is a good video on YouTube showing you how. I use a Garret supersluice pan for dry panning

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Not that I believe some supposed assy represents ore from some supposed watlz mine ..

　
RG1796 wrote

　
The historical Peralta's had a rich gold mine in the Black Canyon area, not anywhere near the Superstitions. There is an old newspaper account of a pair of Peralta brothers whom were attacked by Indians while they were prospecting NEAR the Superstitions, and at the Mormon Stope, several items were found that might have belonged to the Peraltas. There was some evidence of old mining work done at the Black Queen. More on this aspect in a moment.
　


There is no record of Waltz having worked "heavily" at the mine, and this alleged link to the Peraltas is highly suspect. We will get to that. Waltz's work at his mine could not have been much, for he was never seen selling any gigantic amounts of gold. Large yes, maybe impressive (not for some here of course) but his time spent at the mine was never long. How much mining work can a man accomplish, working alone and with hand tools only, in a few days max? Ever tried to crack some gold out of solid rock using nothing but hand tools? It is not for the faint of heart!



This is very much unsubstantiated. It is also out of character for Waltz. Does it sound like a homicidal psychopath, whom would sell off his own secret stash of gold (his ONLY form of "social security account" in those days of NO social safety net) to help out a friend in need? There WAS a murder AT Waltz's home, a Mexican whom Waltz claimed had been killed by a second Mexican who then fled the scene. What is fishy about this is that the Mexican had been killed by Waltz's own shotgun, which he explained by saying the fleeing man had "borrowed" it, then shot his pal and fled, leaving the shotgun behind. Sound fishy? It is a matter of record.

While Waltz may have been kindly to his friends, from statements of people who knew him (we have pretty much nothing direct from Waltz other than his citizenship papers and signature on a petition) he was not someone to screw with, and no one doubted that he could be dangerous. I know half a dozen members here whom will fit that decription as well. Would you try to rob a man that was known to be armed and had lived through the Apache wars as Waltz had? Besides, people DID try to trail him to his mine, unsuccessfully. Most people are not murderers but many might be willing to steal if they can get away with it.



　
Waltz did not publicize that he had a gold mine, and lived quite frugally. There was no reason to rob him, plus he had guns and had lived in the wild Arizona frontier days, it would be a risky undertaking to try to rob him. His friend Julia Thomas was in financial trouble and I see no reason to doubt the story of his helping her out. Look at what Julia and Reiney did after Waltz was dead - they went right out to hunt for that mine. If it is all a tall tale, would you sell your business and risk everything to go hunt for a mythical gold mine? Julia did. By the way there was NO "big bag 'o' gold" under his bed, it was a CANDLE BOX. Ever see a candle box? They are similar to a cigar box. The gold in it amounted to something like forty eight pounds or so, according to Holmes whom sold it off, and used the proceeds to finance his own search for the mine. Would you spend your life hunting for something that you did not believe exists? Plus the gold in that box was gold ORE, not pure gold, so by the only assay done (Holmes had it done) perhaps one third of the weight was actually gold.

This begs a math test. Pure gold 48 pounds ... would be about the size of a modern cigar box (no clue how big a candle box is/was) about 1128 cc. But if the other 67% by weight of the 48 pounds was quartz ... the ore volume calculates out to SIX TIMES as large. Some candles How big were they and how many to a box? And would a box designed to hold wax be ok with all that weight? Not only that, that is for a box magically sized to fit the ore. Any box of ore was probably larger than the exact volume of ore to accommodate void spaces - even if it had magically been just the exact size for the original ore and none had ever been removed. If there ever was some box of ore under some death bed, the weight has most certainly been exaggerated.

Based on the stories of people that supposedly saw Waltz making his trips into the mountains, he was never gone that long, and from Reiney we get that Waltz kept most of his gold "stash" buried in small cans and tins around his home. There were no metal detectors in those days, so burying it was a great way to protect it.



You have skipped the famous flood that pretty well wrecked Waltz's home, his rescue by Reiney and neighbor Starrar; he developed the illness shortly after. The state of the art for medicine in 1891 was not exactly on a par with today, certainly there were fewer antibiotics and some medicines in wide use were actually quite toxic. I know people alive today whom will not go to a doctor for any reason. Besides, Waltz was then an old man, his home and small farm destroyed, it is quite possible he did not desire to try to start over and rebuild etc especially at his age. Waltz had used up his stash of gold except the candle box in helping Julia, so there was no mass of money/wealth to pay for a rich grave and funeral. The candle box vanished from his room, and both Julia and Reiney claimed that Dick Holmes took it. Holmes claimed he had been given it. Julia may be dismissed as a fraud today, but her own actions certainly indicate that she believed there was a mine and a cache of ore to be found. In fact this would be a great reason for her to NOT give out the true clues or correct directions, much less maps, as she may well have hoped to find it herself one day.



It is hard to say what the truth is about the Holmes manuscript. However there is no doubt that Dick Holmes spent the rest of his life searching for the mine, followed by his son Brownie and his partner Clay Wurst, right up to this very day. Actions speak much louder than words, even printed words.



That is making the presumption that the manuscript has to be either 100% accurate or is entirely false. There are multiple possibilities in between - there could very well be errors in the directions, either accidental or deliberate, or it could be in how we are interpreting the terms. Three red hills for instance, does not indicate how the hills are arranged (in a row or triangular?) how large, whether they have brush growing on them or are barren etc. Not to try to attack or diminish that book, but it is just not specific enough to test on a wholly-true/wholly-false basis. After the Lost Dutchman's mine is found, we might be able to check the terrain against the directions in that manuscript and find that it is a perfect match. Until then...?



Hmm firstly I have to respectfully disagree about the stones not being "decoded" for they have been repeatedly decoded, in fact we often have a new person arrive here and announce to the world that he (or she) has solved the mystery, pointing out how stupid we all are in not seeing what they have found, etc. The problem is not in the solving of the stones, it is in finding any thing of value by the maps and directions on them. On that score, so far the score is zero. But I do agree, there is not the best argument that the stones even apply to the Superstitions at all, they will fit in at least a half dozen different places around the southwest.



I would say you are being highly conservative in your estimate of how many people have searched the SWA for the mine. I would venture to guess the true number may well have six zeros behind that first digit. As to the possibility of someone having found it and kept it quiet, human nature is against that. Look at the example with the Pit mine, the folks who mined in it, supposedly were keeping it a secret forever out of fear of prosecution, and yet they could not contain their good fortune and perhaps even that inner desire for recognition was a part. The story "leaked" out and now is debated online. There was one example of a searcher who did find something, or claimed he did, and allegedly had a piece of ore in his backpack that Tom Kollenborn stated (on national TV) looked to be very much like Waltz's ore. That person was Walt Gassler, and he was found dead, having made one last visit to the mine. He had notified both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn that he had found the mine at last and wanted one or both to go with him to show them but they were not able to go with him, so the secret died with Gassler.



Without trying to draw you into an argument on this point, I must respectfully disagree and point out that the Spanish explorers really were quite active in searching for mineral wealth, it was in fact the main purpose of their explorations. Not for agricultural lands or timber to harvest. The wars between Europeans and Amerindians raged from the 1500s to the late 1800s, with numerous massacres including cases of NOT lost mines. There is a reason why there are so many legends across the former Spanish southwest, and it is not because of the huge profits to be made in treasure books. The Spanish were shipping whole fleets loaded with silver, gold and jewels from their mining activities in the Americas, including our own southwest.



I am not convinced that Julia "sold" her story to Bicknell. Bicknell hunted her up and questioned her, but where is it recorded that he paid her for that interview? Bicknell did sell his story to the newspapers and it got published and set off the legend of course, but he certainly did not get wealthy for that story either. He was probably lucky if he got a penny per word!



I don't know about this statement. Quite a few people have posted on the treasure forums how they have "Found" the LDM by satellite photos, but I rather doubt this represents a majority of people, however I sense that you are actually just being facetious in this statement.



That is human nature of course. We sort out clues as we would any mystery, and everyone has a different idea of what the rules should be to do that sorting.


　

You have covered a good summation of the situation, yet seem to lack some of the background that can only be covered with a lot of time spent in research. The next part of what I have to say will certainly tick off some people and will likely get me some angry responses and PMs, and it is not really directed at you specifically but at all of our Dutch hunters, amateur and 'pro' alike.
　

The problem is that we (myself included, for some time) have been searching for a lost mine that is described by a MIX of different stories that are not really related. At least three, possibly five different lost mines have all gotten their details mixed in to the Lost Dutchman story, so that if you try to find that mine, it is both easy and impossible at the same time. Easy because you could find places that will fit some or most of those "clues" yet generally has no gold, and impossible because you are searching for a place that can not exist. If we made up a set of directions to the Silver King mine, and then mixed them with a set of directions to the Vulture, you would then have a similar situation to what we have with the Lost Dutchman story.
Basically the original stories that have gotten mixed together are these:

*The Peralta silver mine, aka the Ludy mine
*The Lost 2 Soldiers mine
*Apache Jack's lost mine
*Jacob Waltz's mine
*The lost Doc Thorne mine

Several others have also almost certainly gotten mixed in, like an obscure "Tayopa" of coarse placer gold on top of a high mesa or butte, a Mexican woman's story that dovetails with that "Tayopa" as she remembered her husband "winnowing" the gold grains by tossing it on a blanket in the wind, a Pima legend of a gold mine and possibly several others like the Black Maverick and lost Pick mine. Why do I say this? Because you can pick out these stories from the mass of Dutchman clues and stories. What you are left with is not nearly so dramatic of course, with no massacres or huge mining platoons trekking the wilderness.
Who or whom is responsible for this confusing mess? Partly it is the fault of treasure hunters, whom hear or read one story and think it is similar to the Dutchman so then make the leap that it MUST be the same mine. Partly it is done innocently, by inexperienced people - Sims Ely for instance was no prospector so did not recognize that the Mexican woman's story was a placer not a lode, nor that the Apache Jack gold which was "spots like stars in the sky" in a BLACK quartz was very unlike the white or slightly rose-tinted quartz we can see in the famous matchbox. The clues to the Apache Jack gold then got directly mixed in with Waltz's story. That is just one example, the 2 Soldiers we can trace to a story that occurred in the Dripping Springs mountains, and a treasure writer may have deliberately "transplanted" the story to add color to an otherwise somewhat dull tale, or perhaps he really believed it was the same. It is even possible that some of the story mixing was done by Waltz himself, for from Holmes own story we have it that he had trailed Waltz, trying to steal the mine (or worse) but was caught, Waltz may have been trying to mislead Holmes deliberately.

As to how this relates to Julia, remember her actions do not match up well with the story we get from her (and Reiney) but it may be traced to the fact that Holmes met with Julia after she had given up searching but BEFORE Bicknell or any other treasure hunter had approached her to interview. She may well have altered the story to fit with Holmes version. In her first attempt there was no story of Peraltas or massacre, funnel shaped pit etc, she simply went looking for trail markers that would lead to the mine.
　

As to the millions made from "keeping the story alive" we need only look at the city that Waltz built - Apache Junction. The treasure writers have NOT made millions on selling the story. If you doubt me contact one of the treasure magazines and find out exactly what they pay. Then look up some of the treasure books, and see for yourself that very often, the writer himself had to PAY to have the books published out of his own pocket! Then he had to try to sell them! One of the more famous writers, Barry Storm, whose story was even picked up by Hollywood and made into a movie (Lust For Gold) ended up living in a plywood shack on his jade claim in California. Does that sound like he made millions on the story? The real people whom have benefited from the legend are the many businesses and especially the developers whom have built thousands of homes and drove the government to create the Superstitions Wilderness Area as the only legal way to stop it from becoming one massive suburb!

Sorry for the long-winded reply, I do enjoy your videos and hope you will continue. I certainly do not wish to discourage you in any way. Just keep in mind that at the core of this legend, the truth may be hard to recognize, especially when trying to fit details from unrelated stories together.
　

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco
　

 

[Hal Croves]

You don't pass up oz's of gold. At least I don't. You hit a hot spot you work it. All this takes time. Gold is gold. You can dry pan with a gold pan. There is a good video on YouTube showing you how. I use a Garret supersluice pan for dry panning

Yes, I watched a video on dry panning in Nevada. Seems uncomplicated and a little dusty.
You are right, the drywasher process seems to take time which is what I don't understand. It could take years to track back to the source and why bother if gold is abundant and somewhat easily collected in the process.

 

[Oroblanco]

How much time is some time? Yes, I am always asking people to support what they post with some type of tangible proof where possible. You spoke with some authority on Mexicans and their mining activity in Arizona. Why is it out of line to ask you to demonstrate your proof of Mexican mining in the Superstitions? One name? One mention in the historical record? One DOI recognized Mexican mine (gold hopefully)? It's ok if it's just your opinion and not something you can prove. I was just hoping that you could establish fact where others have failed. Either you can't or you don't want to. Both are fine but it's unrealistic for you to insist that people take your word for it.

Not to speak for AzDave35 as he is perfectly able to speak for himself, but perhaps I can help address a few points?

How much time - as much time as you can get off from work, and include the travel time to and from your home. I used to live not that far from where you live now and it would take my wife and I two full days driving time each way, and that with trading off driving, one slept the other drives, only stops for fuel and toilet breaks. If you can only get there for a few days you will only end up wishing you had a lot more time, because getting IN takes time too, and hiking the Superstitions is slow going even if you stick to the trails and my bet is that you won't be sticking to the trails. I would recommend to allow at least ten days in AZ as a minimum, because one time we only had a week to spend in the Supers and on the last day found something really interesting up near Horse Camp that I had to wait a full year to go find out more about it. Ten days will allow you to have at least a few days in the interior.

A side effect is that after one trip, you will want to return again. This could become a regular habit of course.

As to solid proof that the Mexicans were active in the Superstitions - that could be hard to pin down, and unless you are willing to take the word of other Dutch hunters, will mean you will have to hike in yourself to see. There are the arrastras on the N side, but they are closer to the river and perhaps you would not count them; there is a small rock fortification on Peters mesa in which I found something on that was fairly solid proof of Mexicans having been there, but I am not willing to say exactly what it was, and unfortunately I no longer have it so can't post a photo of it. I should have taken a picture of it but it was definitely Mexican in origin and quite old. If memory serves, Jim Bark found over 100 pairs of sandals cached in a cave, which were of the same type as those used by Mexican peons, and there may be photos of them available somewhere. The ancient trail up onto Blacktop mesa is widely thought to have been made by Mexicans, perhaps for mining or perhaps just to pasture horses there where it would be exceedingly difficult for hostile Apaches or other tribes to steal them. There is also that old newspaper article reporting of the two Peralta brothers having been attacked by Indians, one of whom was killed and the other seriously wounded, while prospecting NEAR the Superstitions but who knows where they were exactly.

Keep in mind that the Mexican (and Spanish before them) prospectors, as well as the padres, were very interested in SILVER, at least as interested as in gold, and Arizona was known for its silver long before it was known for gold. There are old Mexican or Spanish mine workings near Fish creek canyon, which were clearly looking for silver (may have produced a little) and we can tell this because American miners always left American garbage around their mines and camps, while Mexican and Spanish left their garbage which is quite different - no tin cans, little glass, usually some pottery and often flat stones for making and preparing tortillas, signs that fire and water were used to heat and crack the rock and so on. Before anyone gets excited about those old silver prospects, don't waste your time as there is little ore remaining just holes and some waste rock etc.

Anyway the Mexicans were definitely active in the Superstitions, however I do not know of any documented Mexican or Spanish mine ever being recorded in the Supers. The Mexicans did not always record their mines and perhaps they felt the area was too dangerous to try to comply with the Mexican mining laws requiring monuments and payment of royalty etc. (The "royal fifth" continued under Mexican government but was not called royal any more - I could be wrong on this point but think not).

I hope his helps, and if you can make the trip to AZ in the fall, remember you are invited to the annual Dutch hunters rendezvous!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, and ditto to the words of my amigo Sarge - don't pass up ounces of gold looking for the LDM, or silver either!
Oroblanco

 

[Hal Croves]

All kinds of good reading here that references Mexican mining in AZ during the early 1800's. Even Clay Worst mentions the Mexicans when penning his stories about early mining in AZ. Isn't he supposed to be some sort of LDM God to you Dutch Hunters?

I would not describe myself as a Dutch Hunter and I don't know Mr. Worst.
If you can put aside your defensiveness for a moment, I was being sincere when I ask you to provide proof. I was not trying to embarrass you. I was simply asking you for help. So, what was it that convinced you that Mexicans were mining in the SWA? Something you discovered while hiking it seems.

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes, I watched a video on dry panning in Nevada. Seems uncomplicated and a little dusty.
You are right, the drywasher process seems to take time which is what I don't understand. It could take years to track back to the source and why bother if gold is abundant and somewhat easily collected in the process.

It may have taken Waltz years to trace the gold to the source we don't know however getting samples and running them through a drywasher, then panning the concentrates (so as to use less water) would not necessarily take all that long. In support of this, we might take note that Waltz went and had a drywasher built, so it is quite possible that he already had found a trace of gold in a canyon so had an idea where to look. For that matter, even just by hiking, using nothing more than your eyes, looking for float pieces of quartz and of course seams and strings of black sand in the canyons will help locate gold.

Also remember that MOST of the people whom have gone hunting for the Lost Dutchman were not prospectors and often had no idea what a gold mine would even look like, they were working from clues and in some cases from maps. They could have walked right past the concealed mine and never saw it, even if there were pieces of float with visible gold showing around the mine. I think this may even be true today as well.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Hal Croves]

Not to speak for AzDave35 as he is perfectly able to speak for himself, but perhaps I can help address a few points?

How much time - as much time as you can get off from work, and include the travel time to and from your home. I used to live not that far from where you live now and it would take my wife and I two full days driving time each way, and that with trading off driving, one slept the other drives, only stops for fuel and toilet breaks. If you can only get there for a few days you will only end up wishing you had a lot more time, because getting IN takes time too, and hiking the Superstitions is slow going even if you stick to the trails and my bet is that you won't be sticking to the trails. I would recommend to allow at least ten days in AZ as a minimum, because one time we only had a week to spend in the Supers and on the last day found something really interesting up near Horse Camp that I had to wait a full year to go find out more about it. Ten days will allow you to have at least a few days in the interior.

A side effect is that after one trip, you will want to return again. This could become a regular habit of course.

As to solid proof that the Mexicans were active in the Superstitions - that could be hard to pin down, and unless you are willing to take the word of other Dutch hunters, will mean you will have to hike in yourself to see. There are the arrastras on the N side, but they are closer to the river and perhaps you would not count them; there is a small rock fortification on Peters mesa in which I found something on that was fairly solid proof of Mexicans having been there, but I am not willing to say exactly what it was, and unfortunately I no longer have it so can't post a photo of it. I should have taken a picture of it but it was definitely Mexican in origin and quite old. If memory serves, Jim Bark found over 100 pairs of sandals cached in a cave, which were of the same type as those used by Mexican peons, and there may be photos of them available somewhere. The ancient trail up onto Blacktop mesa is widely thought to have been made by Mexicans, perhaps for mining or perhaps just to pasture horses there where it would be exceedingly difficult for hostile Apaches or other tribes to steal them. There is also that old newspaper article reporting of the two Peralta brothers having been attacked by Indians, one of whom was killed and the other seriously wounded, while prospecting NEAR the Superstitions but who knows where they were exactly.

Keep in mind that the Mexican (and Spanish before them) prospectors, as well as the padres, were very interested in SILVER, at least as interested as in gold, and Arizona was known for its silver long before it was known for gold. There are old Mexican or Spanish mine workings near Fish creek canyon, which were clearly looking for silver (may have produced a little) and we can tell this because American miners always left American garbage around their mines and camps, while Mexican and Spanish left their garbage which is quite different - no tin cans, little glass, usually some pottery and often flat stones for making and preparing tortillas, signs that fire and water were used to heat and crack the rock and so on. Before anyone gets excited about those old silver prospects, don't waste your time as there is little ore remaining just holes and some waste rock etc.

Anyway the Mexicans were definitely active in the Superstitions, however I do not know of any documented Mexican or Spanish mine ever being recorded in the Supers. The Mexicans did not always record their mines and perhaps they felt the area was too dangerous to try to comply with the Mexican mining laws requiring monuments and payment of royalty etc. (The "royal fifth" continued under Mexican government but was not called royal any more - I could be wrong on this point but think not).

I hope his helps, and if you can make the trip to AZ in the fall, remember you are invited to the annual Dutch hunters rendezvous!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, and ditto to the words of my amigo Sarge - don't pass up ounces of gold looking for the LDM, or silver either!
Oroblanco

Very interesting, very interesting.
I wonder why no scholarly effort has been made to study these examples?
Seems overlooked.

Thank you for the honesty.

 

[Hal Croves]

It may have taken Waltz years to trace the gold to the source we don't know however getting samples and running them through a drywasher, then panning the concentrates (so as to use less water) would not necessarily take all that long. In support of this, we might take note that Waltz went and had a drywasher built, so it is quite possible that he already had found a trace of gold in a canyon so had an idea where to look. For that matter, even just by hiking, using nothing more than your eyes, looking for float pieces of quartz and of course seams and strings of black sand in the canyons will help locate gold.

Also remember that MOST of the people whom have gone hunting for the Lost Dutchman were not prospectors and often had no idea what a gold mine would even look like, they were working from clues and in some cases from maps. They could have walked right past the concealed mine and never saw it, even if there were pieces of float with visible gold showing around the mine. I think this may even be true today as well.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Yes, right by it.

 

[azblackbird]

So, what was it that convinced you that Mexicans were mining in the SWA?

I already gave you your homework assignment... do some reading and you'll find out for yourself.

 

[azblackbird]

Also remember that MOST of the people whom have gone hunting for the Lost Dutchman were not prospectors and often had no idea what a gold mine would even look like, they were working from clues and in some cases from maps. They could have walked right past the concealed mine and never saw it, even if there were pieces of float with visible gold showing around the mine. I think this may even be true today as well.

That's exactly the reason why I tell people to quit reading all the fairy tales about the LDM, and learn how to actually prospect for gold and they just might find what they're looking for.

 

[Hal Croves]

I already gave you your homework assignment... do some reading and you'll find out for yourself.

And I thank you for it.

------

talk about an information bomb....
----------
Wow, 1888 to 2013?
A little late to be Mexican don't you think? I will have to pass on the assignment and ask someone else for insight unless there is something specific you want me to read. I am guessing not.
Anyway, thank you for the effort.

 

[sdcfia]

"I too recognize many elements all treasure tales have in common: 1) Treasure/cache/mine/ore site claims to be found 2) Those are then claimed to be lost (often due to the action of Natives or natural elements 3) People decide to believe in the tale, no matter the lack of evidence to support such belief 4) The searching begins, and often never ends with success.

It seems there are also a limited number of reasons such tales are created and believed to begin with 1) People without hope of wealth cling to the idea of becoming wealthy 2) tales are spread to draw people to an area for economic reasons (to draw in tourists) 3) People desire to elevate their status by claiming to know things that are not known by others 4) People make money from selling stories to media or the sale of maps 5) Delusions brought on by environmental factors or mental illness."

Nice post, good points. I would add the concepts of original revelations and the problems of degrees of separation.

If a "lost mine/hidden treasure" legend has any link at all to real people, real events and real secreted riches - and I believe many do - then IMO, the #1 reason that so many searches end up unsuccessful is that the true protagonist has provided critical disinformation to begin with. It's human nature - pure, simple and predictable. The original information provided (by whom, to whom and why, by the way?) was likely done to lead people away from the truth of the treasure. Who really believes that a fortunate discoverer is going to reveal critical information to anyone? Would you?

Then, when you analyze the degrees of separation from the protagonist and the information that you are working with, it becomes painfully obvious that the chances that your clues will lead you to success is next to nil. One degree of separation means that you yourself have gotten the facts directly from the original protagonist, the best you can possibly hope for. In the so-called Waltz deathbed revelations, his testimony may have been accurate, it may have been intentionally misleading, it may have been unintentionally erroneous, it may have been misinterpreted by the recipient, it may have been just ravings of a fever-stricken dying man. We weren't there and have no way of knowing, other than what's available from at least three degrees of separation. Add 125 years, and you have plenty of chances for misunderstandings, twisted testimony, outright fabrications and jimmied clues. Such is life.