Video - Adventures in the Superstition Wilderness

[Loke]

@azdave35,
Don't let Roy's present 'address' fool you - he has spent more times in the Supes than most other THers I know about.
Also - fyi - he doesn't use GE!!

 

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[azdave35]

oroblanco wrote:
If that law was put in place simply to keep us out, then it is not working very well is it? Thousands of people are hiking into the Superstitions every single day, and I dare say a large percentage are looking for a lost gold mine even if they claim they are just hiking. I would suggest to talk to your senator McCain and see what he says - he even seems to have been led to believe that prospecting would continue to be allowed, as the Act really does allow it. Look at a satellite photo of the area and you can see a SEA of houses and even shopping centers creeping right up to the mountains. The Wilderness label protected it from that, remember they could have declared it a PARK or Monument, with far more restrictive regulations including that you could not hunt in it or camp without a permit, plus have to pay a fee just to enter them!
I also must respectfully disagree, the Superstitions were hardly a "wilderness" prior to being put under that Wilderness Act. Cattle and horses were being pastured in those mountains for over a century, and not just one or two but many, there were prospectors shacks and camps dotting the mountains, fairly good trails, fences, man-developed water sources and several ranches that are now gone (First Water, Tortilla for examples) so really it is a MAN-MADE "wilderness" for prior to the Act taking force, it really was no more "wilderness" than a great many areas where cattle are pastured, prospector camps and trappers cabins are located. Even the growth of the brush and cactus are different than it was just thirty years ago, since the cattle were removed the brush has grown quite thick in many areas where it was quite open, and now we have fire danger there all too often.

i guess i should have worded it different....they dont want us driving in there...

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"One - there is that beautiful matchbox, so famous from TV and magazines. The ore used to make that, along with the cufflinks and a few other specimens that survive, does not seem to match any known gold mine in AZ. If Waltz simply was taking it from some other mine, what mine is it? That mine which produced those specimens has not been found. We have the info from Holmes assay, and can see that the ore is fairly unusual for Arizona in that it has coarse grains, and has a high gold to silver ratio. This points to a somewhat rare type of gold vein, not the more common type that would pinch out in a pocket. Waltz even (supposedly) vehemently denied that his mine was just a rich pocket, which is where that famous saying about enough gold remaining in the mine, showing, to make millionaires of twenty men (at the old $20.67 per ounce price). If Waltz had no gold mine where did the ore you can see in the matchbox come from? Hmm can't seem to say this in a few words but that gold we can see in that matchbox, came from a mine somewhere, we have Waltz's story and only speculations against it. I would like to find the mine that produced that ore you can see in the matchbox."

I must respectfully disagree. Historically speaking, there were many, many gold mines in Arizona which were very, very rich close to the surface. I believe most of them pinched out quickly. The Bully Bueno comes to mind. You have seen the ore that sits in my office. No gold in it, but it's a very pretty rock:



Think about that rock with rich veins of gold running through it. Rich enough ore to build a town haul in a ten-stamp mill, and end up selling the mine to people back east.

I don't believe all of the mines that were ever found in Arizona left samples behind.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

roy....dont you live in dakota?....which means anything you know about the superstitions comes from looking at google earth or reading books?....

Yes I now live in Dakota. I have lived in Arizona too, and California, and Virginia and a few other places as well. I have been treasure hunting and prospecting for a bit over 30 years now, and for years I had to drive over 2400 miles each way just to spend my precious vacation time in the Superstitions each year. I don't know too many people who would do that. I wish I had the privilege of living right next to those mountains but have never been able to arrange that. I have also had the good fortune to spend time in most of the western states and Canada searching for gold too, and have owned several of my own mines over the years as well. I also write treasure articles, and am working on a couple of books as well, sold my first "how to" article on gold prospecting about twenty years ago and thought I was an "expert" then.

And no, not "anything" I know about the Superstitions came from looking at Google Earth or reading books. (Gracias to Loke for the vote of confidence) I have not claimed nor pretended to be the "expert" here amigo, nor do I buy into the thinking that if someone lives in Arizona they must be an expert on the Lost Dutchman either. You are certainly welcome to disagree with anything and everything I said, and no offense was intended.

I figured those two posts would aggravate someone. Sorry if anyone was offended, just trying to point out some things to someone whom is relatively new at this Dutch hunting game. It is all too easy to get discouraged, especially at the confusion of so many different "clues" maps etc not to mention the conflicting advice and wisdom.

Azdave35 also wrote

guess i should have worded it different....they dont want us driving in there..

.

Can't disagree on that, and for the record, I detest that the Superstitions were made into a legal Wilderness Area at all. I thought it had enough regulation and protection as it was formerly, mostly BLM and National Forest land.

Bill Riley wrote

All those different types of people came together in the Supers and made it a place for humans to live before the Wilderness act.

Ranches have backhoes, dozers, tractors, dynamite and heavy equipment.

Miners have dynamite and heavy equipment.

So would you say it was a ranching, mining, conglomerate of people?

Definition of Conglomerate:

"A number of people that are grouped together to form a whole but yet remain distinct entities".

No I would not call that or consider it a conglomerate, as a conglomerate is all working toward a single goal, while the people whom were living and working in the Superstitions were very much individualists, each working to his and her own goal. In fact some of the people did not want others around the area at all, as for example in the conflict between Celeste Jones and Ed Piper, and Jim Bark was not too happy about having treasure hunters roaming around his ranch, cutting fences etc.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Please do continue.
Oroblanco

 

[cw0909]

Ryan, great vids keep them coming, and i like the great convo that has come about
from the vids. Q: is the pit mine the LDM? i dont think so, but i could be wrong, all the
gold that would make 20 men millionaires ,would be an exaggeration, as it seems to
many people know of that mine and its details, for that type of wealth kept a secret so
long, and geezze the whole, hole would have, to have been gold ore, LOL

about that matchbox, has it ever been checked against gold ore in N Carolina
or anywhere other than AZ

 

[cw0909]

treating pneumonia in 1890

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1890/12/27/page/6/article/what-to-do-for-pneumonia

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1890/12/27/page/6/article/what-to-do-for-pneumonia#text

 

[Oroblanco]

Sorry I missed this but it appeared after I had posted my last one.

Roy,


I must respectfully disagree. Historically speaking, there were many, many gold mines in Arizona which were very, very rich close to the surface. I believe most of them pinched out quickly. The Bully Bueno comes to mind. You have seen the ore that sits in my office. No gold in it, but it's a very pretty rock:



Think about that rock with rich veins of gold running through it. Rich enough ore to build a town haul in a ten-stamp mill, and end up selling the mine to people back east.

I don't believe all of the mines that were ever found in Arizona left samples behind.

Take care,

Joe

It is a very pretty rock. Your theory is good but even so, then what mine has the ore that matches what came from that candle box? If you know of a mine that has ore which matches, then why not propose it?

I will provide a similar situation to the Dutchman. You know the story of the lost Breyfogle mine - well a lucky prospector found what looked like very similar ore and an assayer compared it to ore from Breyfogle, and it was a complete match. The ore came from what is today known as the Amargosa mine in California. Supposedly there was a collection of ore specimens from every known mine in Arizona and the candle box ore was compared to it, with no matches.

Find a mine that has at least a Mesothermal type gold vein in it, but more likely a Hypothermal vein, with a very high gold to silver ratio in the assays. The vein will very likely run to great depths as these types normally do. There are only a handful of these types of gold mines in Arizona, the Vulture being one and that ore does not match and even I can tell that. Here is a photo of Vulture gold ore:

<borrowed from http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/13051/13390802_1.jpg under Fair Use provisions>

Now look at that matchbox again - they have similarities, as in the coarse grain size, but really do look different and have a different mineral make up.


So we must disagree, and no offense taken (or intended!)

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

The matchbox is not a good sample for comparison. No one knows where it originated. What solid proof is there that it was in the candle box let alone from the LDM. But there it sits on the Dutchman altar for all to worship. Waltz could have picked that up in California for all we know.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I believe Dr. Thomas Glover did the most extensive testing of the "claimed" LDM ore. He did a very good write-up of those tests. On page 275 he writes: "Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

Thomas put a lot of time, effort and money into seeking anything that came close to such a collection. He came up with nada.

Not knowing crap about rocks, I will assume that you are correct. One word that I picked up out of the above post was
"normally". From what I have read, the LDM is anything but normal.

Would love to have you and Beth spend some time with us next time you are out this way.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Yes I now live in Dakota. I have lived in Arizona too, and California, and Virginia and a few other places as well. I have been treasure hunting and prospecting for a bit over 30 years now, and for years I had to drive over 2400 miles each way just to spend my precious vacation time in the Superstitions each year. I don't know too many people who would do that. I wish I had the privilege of living right next to those mountains but have never been able to arrange that. I have also had the good fortune to spend time in most of the western states and Canada searching for gold too, and have owned several of my own mines over the years as well. I also write treasure articles, and am working on a couple of books as well, sold my first "how to" article on gold prospecting about twenty years ago and thought I was an "expert" then.

And no, not "anything" I know about the Superstitions came from looking at Google Earth or reading books. (Gracias to Loke for the vote of confidence) I have not claimed nor pretended to be the "expert" here amigo, nor do I buy into the thinking that if someone lives in Arizona they must be an expert on the Lost Dutchman either. You are certainly welcome to disagree with anything and everything I said, and no offense was intended.

I figured those two posts would aggravate someone. Sorry if anyone was offended, just trying to point out some things to someone whom is relatively new at this Dutch hunting game. It is all too easy to get discouraged, especially at the confusion of so many different "clues" maps etc not to mention the conflicting advice and wisdom.

Azdave35 also wrote
.

Can't disagree on that, and for the record, I detest that the Superstitions were made into a legal Wilderness Area at all. I thought it had enough regulation and protection as it was formerly, mostly BLM and National Forest land.

Bill Riley wrote


No I would not call that or consider it a conglomerate, as a conglomerate is all working toward a single goal, while the people whom were living and working in the Superstitions were very much individualists, each working to his and her own goal. In fact some of the people did not want others around the area at all, as for example in the conflict between Celeste Jones and Ed Piper, and Jim Bark was not too happy about having treasure hunters roaming around his ranch, cutting fences etc.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Please do continue.
Oroblanco

roy...i'm pretty thick skinned...nothing you said offended me and i meant no offense to you...but you are wrong about not many people driving 2400 miles just to spend a short time in the supers...alot of people come alot farther than that...they come from all over the world to hang out on that rock they call the superstition mountain....and just because i live here doesnt mean i know everything about the lost dutchman mine....but i know alot more than most...the main thing i know is i stopped looking for it a long time ago...because its already been found....and even if it hadnt been found and cleaned out i still wouldnt waste my time looking for it...over the years i've known quite a few dutch hunters that spent their whole life looking for that mine and they have nothing to show for it except a divorce..kids that wont have anything to do with them..they have spent time in jail because of their quest.....i'd rather look for something i can find

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I believe Dr. Thomas Glover did the most extensive testing of the "claimed" LDM ore. He did a very good write-up of those tests. On page 275 he writes: "Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

Thomas put a lot of time, effort and money into seeking anything that came close to such a collection. He came up with nada.

　
NO disrespect intended to Dr Glover and I consider him a friend, but you know that the testing he had done, was limited to non-destructive methods. No assay was done. At least one of the specimens he was provided is questionable too. He will tell you himself that the testing he had done, was quite limited in scope.

　
As to the collection, I would suggest checking with the Flandrau Science Center, Department of Geosciences, The University of Arizona Mineral Museum as I understand the collection is on public display from February until May. People that live or are visiting AZ could see it for themselves. By the way you can find the signed affidavits concerning the ore comparison in Helen Corbin's first book, I believe they are in the back pages, so unless the affidavitd were baldfaced lies, I don't dismiss them even though one of the two men now has changed his views on the LDM to believe that it never existed in the Superstitions as he recently posted on Facebook.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Not knowing crap about rocks, I will assume that you are correct. One word that I picked up out of the above post was
"normally". From what I have read, the LDM is anything but normal.

Would love to have you and Beth spend some time with us next time you are out this way.

Taking that last part first, I would say ditto - we do have one or two things to see and do in this part of the country too, especially if you had a way to bring along a quad.

Why would you say the LDM is anything but normal? I would say it is very much normal, for the type of gold deposit it appears to be, and would fit the statements attributed to Waltz very well. Perhaps even one of the famous "chimney" type deposits the old timers used to dream of finding, which would not necessarily look like much on the surface of the ground, as was the case with the Vulture mine. As you know the big majority of gold deposits in Arizona were found to be epithermal type, which normally (and commonly) will pinch out at a relatively shallow depth, so the mines would play out quickly, resulting in many a ghost town across the state <and in many states as well> where high hopes were dashed when the veins pinched out. Hypothermal veins tend to run very deep, hundreds or even thousands of feet deep, and are often very rich - like the Vulture and the results Dick Holmes got on his assay - really the best kind of hard rock gold mine to find.

Azdave35 wrote

roy...i'm pretty thick skinned...nothing you said offended me and i meant no offense to you...but you are wrong about not many people driving 2400 miles just to spend a short time in the supers...alot of people come alot farther than that...they come from all over the world to hang out on that rock they call the superstition mountain....and just because i live here doesnt mean i know everything about the lost dutchman mine....but i know alot more than most...the main thing i know is i stopped looking for it a long time ago...because its already been found....and even if it hadnt been found and cleaned out i still wouldnt waste my time looking for it...over the years i've known quite a few dutch hunters that spent their whole life looking for that mine and they have nothing to show for it except a divorce..kids that wont have anything to do with them..they have spent time in jail because of their quest.....i'd rather look for something i can find

　
You have made a couple of strong statements there, one of which I would like to ask to see some support for? You state that the mine was found, perhaps already cleaned out? Can you say who or whom found it, and what proves that what they found, IS the same mine of Jacob Waltz? Or what led you to believe this? Thanks in advance, and for the record, we can disagree on things and it has no bearing on friendship in my view.



　
To all - the fact that so many have searched for this lost mine for so long without success, leads people to many kinds of conclusions to explain it. The mine must never have existed, or he was stealing it from somewhere else, or it was found and all cleaned out etc. This may just be the natural inclination to reject something which is very difficult to solve, and finding the Lost Dutchman's mine has to be one of the most difficult there are. I know that a LOT of people do not agree with what I posted, including many of our most highly respected experts on this topic, which is why I really hesitated about saying anything at all. Probably said too much as it is. I won't derail the discussion any further, please do continue amigos.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

　

 

[Azquester]

Yes I now live in Dakota. I have lived in Arizona too, and California, and Virginia and a few other places as well. I have been treasure hunting and prospecting for a bit over 30 years now, and for years I had to drive over 2400 miles each way just to spend my precious vacation time in the Superstitions each year. I don't know too many people who would do that. I wish I had the privilege of living right next to those mountains but have never been able to arrange that. I have also had the good fortune to spend time in most of the western states and Canada searching for gold too, and have owned several of my own mines over the years as well. I also write treasure articles, and am working on a couple of books as well, sold my first "how to" article on gold prospecting about twenty years ago and thought I was an "expert" then.

And no, not "anything" I know about the Superstitions came from looking at Google Earth or reading books. (Gracias to Loke for the vote of confidence) I have not claimed nor pretended to be the "expert" here amigo, nor do I buy into the thinking that if someone lives in Arizona they must be an expert on the Lost Dutchman either. You are certainly welcome to disagree with anything and everything I said, and no offense was intended.

I figured those two posts would aggravate someone. Sorry if anyone was offended, just trying to point out some things to someone whom is relatively new at this Dutch hunting game. It is all too easy to get discouraged, especially at the confusion of so many different "clues" maps etc not to mention the conflicting advice and wisdom.

Azdave35 also wrote
.

Can't disagree on that, and for the record, I detest that the Superstitions were made into a legal Wilderness Area at all. I thought it had enough regulation and protection as it was formerly, mostly BLM and National Forest land.

Bill Riley wrote


No I would not call that or consider it a conglomerate, as a conglomerate is all working toward a single goal, while the people whom were living and working in the Superstitions were very much individualists, each working to his and her own goal. In fact some of the people did not want others around the area at all, as for example in the conflict between Celeste Jones and Ed Piper, and Jim Bark was not too happy about having treasure hunters roaming around his ranch, cutting fences etc.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Please do continue.
Oroblanco

I beg to differ. Ranching is a single goal and so is mining. Each has one goal.
Cattle and Gold or Silver.
They both have one thing in common. They both used machinery and dynamite.
You said it best about the other factor. Treasure Hunters cutting fences.

Treasure Hunters grouped together also.

That's a third conglomerate.

The first was of course Julia and Rhiney.

Thanx

 

[azdave35]

"oroblanco wrote"
You have made a couple of strong statements there, one of which I would like to ask to see some support for? You state that the mine was found, perhaps already cleaned out? Can you say who or whom found it, and what proves that what they found, IS the same mine of Jacob Waltz? Or what led you to believe this? Thanks in advance, and for the record, we can disagree on things and it has no bearing on friendship in my view.

roy...i'm not willing to elaborate any further on a public forum but i might be at the rendezvous this year if you want to discuss it

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous.
No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

I think that statement is pretty clear. It has nothing to do with the quality of testing that was done by Thomas.

On the other hand, I'm sure you are correct about the records of what he tested against. Never, personally, looked
into it. While I have researched the LDM, I never searched for it.....on my own.

Randy tells me the Rendezvous will likely be on the 24th. and 25th. of Oct.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, nother mine that I missed out on was a copper deposit in southern Chih. . I sent the sample to Abbot Hanks in San Francisco to have it assayed. Shortly I received a tel call from one of the owners for a coffee * . He then asked me where in Mexico did the sample come from,? I remarksd "who said any thing about Mexico?" He replied " come now,we know that it came from Mexico, probably from southern Chihuahua. It is our business to know different ores. I don't want to know specifics, just generalities for our records and information. W e keep records of all districts and add to them from time to time".

He defiately was doing just what 'Oro Blaco de Tayopa' mentioned., gathering samples of all districts..

Incidentaly it ran 30% Cu and with 55% silicon Dioxide, natural smelting ore.55 ft across and 800 meters up the side of the mt. There was a moutain of of lesser value.

How and why I lost it is another story for a rainy day.

 

[UncleMatt]

Gollum has previously mentioned a database that can assist in identifying where ores come from as well I believe.

 

[cw0909]

1st,Ryan your great vids have turned us again, thank you for the
great convos the vids are producing
im not a rock hound, but all the talk about checking the ore,
sent me to looking around. i found these
pdf, so maybe the folks that know the area well, will chime in on
whats what, with the pdf assessments
ive read them like 4x and still not sure about the rock in the sup.
i may be wrong but i think the first
link, is presenting as a flat plane, but can be transposed to mountain ranges

Gold Deposits and Their Geological Classification
http://dmec.ca/ex07-dvd/Decennial Proceedings/Expl97/03_02___.pdf

looking for a better one
GEOLOGIC FIELD GUIDETO THE PHOENIX MOUNTAINS, CENTRAL ARIZONA
http://reynolds.asu.edu/pubs/phx_mtns_field_guide.pdf

was a good read,not sure how accurate good imgs of what he is saying
GEOLOGY OF THE SUPERSTITION WILDERNESS AREAby Tom Kollenborn (c) 1997
http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/geology of the supers 2.pdf

dang whats up with my txt format, looks crazy on my screen........

Joe, nother mine that I missed out on was a copper deposit in southern Chih. . I sent the sample to Abbot Hanks in San Francisco to have it assayed. Shortly I received a tel call from one of the owners for a coffee * . He then asked me where in Mexico did the sample come from,? I remarksd "who said any thing about Mexico?" He replied " come now,we know that it came from Mexico, probably from southern Chihuahua. It is our business to know different ores. I don't want to know specifics, just generalities for our records and information. W e keep records of all districts and add to them from time to time".

He defiately was doing just what 'Oro Blaco de Tayopa' mentioned., gathering samples of all districts..

Incidentaly it ran 30% Cu and with 55% silicon Dioxide, natural smelting ore.55 ft across and 800 meters up the side of the mt. There was a moutain of of lesser value.

How and why I lost it is another story for a rainy day.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous.
No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

I think that statement is pretty clear. It has nothing to do with the quality of testing that was done by Thomas.

On the other hand, I'm sure you are correct about the records of what he tested against. Never, personally, looked
into it. While I have researched the LDM, I never searched for it.....on my own.

Randy tells me the Rendezvous will likely be on the 24th. and 25th. of Oct.

Take care,

Joe

Your statement was perfectly clear, however I am certain that you are mistaken. The University of Arizona has an amazing collection of mineral specimens, and almost has to be the place where the comparison was done. They even have an online database at:
The University of Arizona Mineral Museum

Joe you have repeatedly stated that you have never personally searched for the lost Dutchman mine, yet you have no reservations about presenting numerous theories to explain it away as if it never existed or was nothing more than a rich pocket of gold in what appears to have been an old silver mine that was cleaned out in a relatively short time in recent years. Not sure I understand that logic. If you have never searched for it, how can you be confident that it never existed?

I am also pretty certain that you have Helen Corbin's first book, The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold. If you turn to page 231 you will find a facsimile of a document which includes this:

<snip> Approximately three years ago I had the opportunity to e shown ore samples, documents and jewelry made from said ore which is owned by an Arizona businessman. This individual obtained these valuable items from Brownie Holmes, son of Dick Holmes, who was present in the home of Julia Thomas on Octobore 25, 1891 when Jacob Waltz died.

I have in my possession an hour long tape made before Brownie's death which states that he gave these items to said businessman. He further states that the Dutchman gave these items to his father which were stored in a candle box under Jacob's deathbed. I have seen the report on said ore which was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. This report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton. Gold was selling for $20.64 an ounce in 1891.

<snip>
I was told by the individual who owns the assay report, jewelry and ore that this ore had been sent to the University of Arizona, School of Mines which has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore came from an unknown source."
<snip>
BOB CORBIN

subscribed and sworn to before me this 10th day of April, 1985

And on page 233 of the same source, we find another facsimile of another affidavit which includes this:

<snip>
Approximately three years ago I had the opportunity to be shown certain ores, documents, and jewelry which are owned by an Arizona businessman who had received the ore, documents and jewelry from Brownie Holmes who was the son of Dick Holmes who was present in the home of Julia Thomas on October 25th, 1891 when Jacob Waltz died.

At the time of Jacob Waltz's death on October 25th 1891, Dick Holmes obtained the ore belonging to Jacob Waltz that was under his bed in a candle box at the time of his death. The ore was taken to Goldman's store in Phoenix, Arizona where it was assayed. I have seen the assay report on this ore and this assay report indicates that it was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The assay report further states that the ore assayed at $110,000 a ton and that gold at that time was selling for $20.64 an ounce.

I have also seen shipping papers sending the ore to a jewelry company in San Francisco requesting that a matchbox, ring, tie pin and cuff links be made from the ore. I have seen the shipping papers shipping this jewelry back to Phoenix. I have also seen the matchbox and the ring made from this ore, and I have seen the tie pin and the cuff links.

I was told by the individual who owns the assay report, jewelry and ore that this ore had been sent to the University of Arizona, School of Mines that has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up with any known Arizona gold mine. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore that he had sent to them came from an unknown source.
<snip>
TOM KOLLENBORN

subscribed and sworn to before me this 13th day of April, 1985

Now perhaps the University of Arizona, School of Mines no longer has a collection of ore specimens, but this comparison was done before April of 1985. I would also point out that much of the highly questionable "evidence" and stories, even ore that has cropped up and raised SO much doubts not to mention the harm done to Helen Corbin's reputation, all happened well after that date.

Even if that comparison was NEVER done, since there are existing specimens like the famous match box, an ore comparison can still be done today if someone should find an old gold mine and brings out an ore specimen to compare to the match box. I have to respectfully disagree with my amigo Sarge about the matchbox not being a good specimen to compare, and point out that it is the ONLY specimen we have decent photos of to do any comparison with so by default is the best available. There are other small pieces that have been in circulation for many years as well, which may or may not have come from Jacob Waltz's mine but could be compared if they could be found.

So I still respectfully disagree with you Joe, sorry but to me at least, that gold we can see in the matchbox, coupled with Waltz having been a successful prospector (meaning he should certainly be capable of finding another mine after having found and sold THREE) and what he told his friends, plus their actions after his death, regardless of all the nonsense and BS that has been added into the mix since the early days, at the root of this story we have a Dutchman who had a secret gold source that as far as I can see, only one person may have ever found and he turned up dead shortly after (Walt Gassler). That matchbox ore did not come from one of Waltz's mines in the Bradshaws.

I hope to attend the rendezvous again this fall, and look forward to seeing you again - who knows maybe sooner than October?

Sorry for yet another long winded post amigos, just trying to present the other side of this case. Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[captain1965]

Lol I think Ryan is getting caught up with all the Dutchman lore and clues o. This thread. I like his angle! He seems to be a likable guy so we all want to help him. Kindness gets you some ware. His next film might be titled "The found Dutchman's mine"

 

[Old]

UAMM-Samples

Univ. of Arizona data base of gold specimens with source and some with pictures. Includes several specimens from the Vulture and Mammoth as well as others in the immediate area, outside the area and across the world.

Such data bases do exist. Whether or not a full and complete comparison has been made to the matchbox sample I can not say. All we can deduce from this is......it is possible to do so.