Music and Trap Canyon

[cactusjumper]

I guess we perceive things differently.

I believe the Lipan Apaches had such a thing, but while most Apaches may not have had burial grounds in general, that doesn't mean they never had such a thing, especially when imported diseases wiped out entire villages.

You have previously intimated yourself to be an expert on all things Apaches, and so perhaps you would know how little of their history, custom, and beliefs made it to the "white man's records" perhaps because such history existed and were transmitted as oral family history, and were reluctantly passed on to outsiders.

Anyway, I don't really want to hijack this thread- back to Music and Trap canyon.

deducer,

I have never "intimated" or said that I am an expert on anything. On the other hand, I have said many times that I am a fan (no scholar) of history and in particular Apache history. If you want to twist that into my thinking I'm and expert, it's your story.

IMHO, a burial ground would be an area where multiple burials have taken place. That was not the way of the Apache until after they went to the reservations.

I have little doubt that Matthew would have the best information on this subject.

There were many historians/authors who spent years among the Apache. They were considered good friends by many of the people.

Good luck,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

deducer and Matthew,

Someone once wrote this about Apache Burial grounds:

"The Salado and HoHoKam indians, the ancient ones, had burial grounds much like cemeteries. The Apache didn't practice burial in a community place. Depending on your status in the tribal group, you might be buried near by the camp where you lived, or taken many miles to a place of great power to be laid to rest in a high crevace somewhere. A spirit or spirits would linger at these places and they were considered to have great medicine or power connected to them."

I believe "spirits" of death and the dead, would be avoided by the Apache.

I believe I would agree with Matthew on this one.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

More from someone posting as "Spirit":


"ya-a-teh shils aash,

The Apache before christianity did not have burial grounds such as is thought of as a cemetery. Women and men of clans were buried without any distinction, as quickly as possible and with as little effort as was needed. All Apache abhored cremation. Burial would sometimes be simply finding a nearby crevice or removing some rock just large enough to fit the dead person and covering the body over with rocks so the wolves and scavengers could not get to the remains.

The men of a band or clan were not all what was once called warriors. Some men achieved warrior status but not all men of a clan were trained or fought as warriors and raiders. There was a distinct difference in how a woman or a non warrior was buried as compared to a man with warrior status.

Warriors were more thoughtfully and carefully buried with some degree of ceremony. Sometimes the warriors body would be taken to a prearranged place, usually a place associated with power or spirit power to be buried. There they would be laid within a hidden crevice and personal items would be placed with them and the grave covered over with rock. A specific traditional ceremony would accompany the burial.

Once buried the name of the dead would never be spoken again. The name of the dead would be changed so when he was spoken of in the future he would not be called as he was when alive. This custom is still practiced today by many Apache.

The reason for this is when an Apache dies it is believed they go to the life after and live there with Yolkai Nalin, the goddess of death and birth. They are said to now belong to Yolkai Nalin. She alone controls all souls who pass away and they become her people. If the deads name is spoken by the living it is believed it might anger Yolkai Nalin, and when the person who called that name dies, she might refuse them admittance to the eternal paradise."

Some truth in this post.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

I guess we perceive things differently.

I believe the Lipan Apaches had such a thing, but while most Apaches may not have had burial grounds in general, that doesn't mean they never had such a thing, especially when imported diseases wiped out entire villages.

You have previously intimated yourself to be an expert on all things Apaches, and so perhaps you would know how little of their history, custom, and beliefs made it to the "white man's records" perhaps because such history existed and were transmitted as oral family history, and were reluctantly passed on to outsiders.

Anyway, I don't really want to hijack this thread- back to Music and Trap canyon.

deducer,

Don't see how the natural progression of this thread into Apache burial practices is in any way a "hijack". Once the subject was brought up pertaining to these canyons, it just flowed into what the Apache were known to do with their dead.
Not many of us have direct connections with Apache elders who might have some insight into the spoken history of the people, so the many books on the subject are the next best thing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[captain1965]

I like the direction this thread is going!!

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

This is all very intreseting and wonder if maybe music mountain or trap canyon could have been seen as a spirtual place of power by natives tribes. Always believed if i was to ever find anything in the Supes, it would be a hiddin cache and not a mine or burial ground. But i would be okay with those also. Has anyone heard of a heart shaped carving found on the N/W side of picacho butte facing music mountain?

 

[cactusjumper]

This is all very intreseting and wonder if maybe music mountain or trap canyon could have been seen as a spirtual place of power by natives tribes. Always believed if i was to ever find anything in the Supes, it would be a hiddin cache and not a mine or burial ground. But i would be okay with those also. Has anyone heard of a heart shaped carving found on the N/W side of picacho butte facing music mountain?

AG,

To the Apache, spiritual places or the home of power, are tied to many mountains or well known landmarks. The Apache of old would find spiritual power everywhere in the Superstitions. Other than the Tonto Apache, I don't believe they were much of a presence in the range, and that was, primarily, in the Northeast portion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

AG,

To the Apache, spiritual places or the home of power, are tied to many mountains or well known landmarks. The Apache of old would find spiritual power everywhere in the Superstitions. Other than the Tonto Apache, I don't believe they were much of a presence in the range, and that was, primarily, in the Northeast portion.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks joe, I agree that area is a little out of place of natives to inhabit it. Ive heard that there is a "vortex" there in the canyon about half way up. Just made me think it might have been a home of power. I just love thinking i was walking where apaches roamed and lived And from all i heard of trap its most probable that there may be a cache/ treasure buried or nothing at all.

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks joe, I agree that area is a little out of place of natives to inhabit it. Ive heard that there is a "vortex" there in the canyon about half way up. Just made me think it might have been a home of power. I just love thinking i was walking where apaches roamed and lived And from all i heard of trap its most probable that there may be a cache/ treasure buried or nothing at all.

AG,

I don't think the Native American Indians of the era thought it was "out of place" nor uninhabitable. There is ample archaeological evidence showing that the Native Americans spent some time in the range. Those that spent the most time there, however, were not the Apache.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[RG1976]

I'm interested in this area.

Take me there after it cools down a bit - ginger?

 

[Absurd-Ginger]

I'm interested in this area.

Take me there after it cools down a bit - ginger?

Sounds like a plan RG, PM me when ever or around the time it cools the heck down outside, we can get together and hash some details out.

 

[captain1965]

Trap canyon documentary?

Ryan be very careful. We don't want to lose our favorite vidographer.