Exact location where Dick Holmes dug up the Dutchmans Nephew?
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  1. #1
    us
    Marine

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    Exact location where Dick Holmes dug up the Dutchmans Nephew?

    Hello Gang,
    Does Anyone have an offical reference as to the exact location Dick Holmes dug up the Dutchman's nephew? I have found interviews ,etc. stating Agua Escondido. I am looking to either confirm or debunk this part of the story. Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks in advance~ Scott

  2. #2

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefastship View Post
    Hello Gang,
    Does Anyone have an offical reference as to the exact location Dick Holmes dug up the Dutchman's nephew? I have found interviews ,etc. stating Agua Escondido. I am looking to either confirm or debunk this part of the story. Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks in advance~ Scott
    Scott,

    Welcome to the LDM discussion.

    Personally, I would not believe anything written about the "Dutchman's nephew". The Holmes' story was denied by Brownie Holmes, right up to the time of his death.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  3. #3
    us
    Apr 2013
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    Cactusjumper,

    I believe you might be overstating what George "Brownie" Holmes actually said. The "Holmes' story" was not denied by Brownie Holmes right up to the time of his death. What Brownie denied was writing the manuscript which contains the Holmes story. And Brownie was correct. Chas. Kennison wrote that manuscript. Brownie never denied the parts that told of his family and the Holmes - Waltz deathbed account. In fact Brownie admitted he provided everything but the parts Kennison threw in that had Brownie roping wild horses with one hand while fighting mountain lions with the other.

    Celia Paz who was the granddaughter of Tina Murdoch who ran Tina's Tiny Tavern in downtown Phoenix had several versions of the Holmes manuscript that Kennison wrote. Brownie was a frequent visitor of that establishment and had given Tina copies of the versions along with many other historic photos. The famous photo of Brownie with Adolph Ruth's skull and the photo of Ruth's skull with the bullet holes hung on the wall of that drinking establishment for many years. Greg Davis eventually acquired all those items and photographs belonging to Brownie from Tina's granddaughter. Those items are now in the Superstition Mountain Historical Museum archives.

    You are of course, as always, free to believe whatever you want.

    Matthew

    thefastship,

    If you have a copy of the Mormon Flat Dam topo map, find Mormon Flat Dam on that topo. Follow down the Salt River from the dam about two miles and you will see Cottonwood Canyon marked on the north side of the river.
    Follow up Cottonwood Canyon until you find a small side canyon to the east called Cane Spring Canyon. Follow up Cane Sp. canyon and you will see the Hidden Water Spring as described in the Holmes account.
    The spring was on the ranch of Walker Wilson Jones (doc Jones). Later it became part of Poncho Monroy's ranch.
    I have been to the site and it is a good camping area with abundant water. A bluff is directly north of the spring exactly as described in the Holmes account.

    In Waltz's day the only reliable crossing of the Verde River was 4 miles below Fort McDowell. A wagon road used by the military ran from this crossing on the north side of the Salt River all the way to Camp Reno to the east. Doc Jones ranch and Hidden Water was along this old wagon road. I can't verify if the story about Waltz and his nephew is true or not, there are enough things about the account that I cannot dismiss it all together.

    Matthew

  4. #4

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    Cactusjumper,

    I believe you might be overstating what George "Brownie" Holmes actually said. The "Holmes' story" was not denied by Brownie Holmes right up to the time of his death. What Brownie denied was writing the manuscript which contains the Holmes story. And Brownie was correct. Chas. Kennison wrote that manuscript. Brownie never denied the parts that told of his family and the Holmes - Waltz deathbed account. In fact Brownie admitted he provided everything but the parts Kennison threw in that had Brownie roping wild horses with one hand while fighting mountain lions with the other.

    Celia Paz who was the granddaughter of Tina Murdoch who ran Tina's Tiny Tavern in downtown Phoenix had several versions of the Holmes manuscript that Kennison wrote. Brownie was a frequent visitor of that establishment and had given Tina copies of the versions along with many other historic photos. The famous photo of Brownie with Adolph Ruth's skull and the photo of Ruth's skull with the bullet holes hung on the wall of that drinking establishment for many years. Greg Davis eventually acquired all those items and photographs belonging to Brownie from Tina's granddaughter. Those items are now in the Superstition Mountain Historical Museum archives.

    You are of course, as always, free to believe whatever you want.

    Matthew

    thefastship,

    If you have a copy of the Mormon Flat Dam topo map, find Mormon Flat Dam on that topo. Follow down the Salt River from the dam about two miles and you will see Cottonwood Canyon marked on the north side of the river.
    Follow up Cottonwood Canyon until you find a small side canyon to the east called Cane Spring Canyon. Follow up Cane Sp. canyon and you will see the Hidden Water Spring as described in the Holmes account.
    The spring was on the ranch of Walker Wilson Jones (doc Jones). Later it became part of Poncho Monroy's ranch.
    I have been to the site and it is a good camping area with abundant water. A bluff is directly north of the spring exactly as described in the Holmes account.

    In Waltz's day the only reliable crossing of the Verde River was 4 miles below Fort McDowell. A wagon road used by the military ran from this crossing on the north side of the Salt River all the way to Camp Reno to the east. Doc Jones ranch and Hidden Water was along this old wagon road. I can't verify if the story about Waltz and his nephew is true or not, there are enough things about the account that I cannot dismiss it all together.

    Matthew
    Matthew,

    You are, of course, correct. I should have said Brownie denied writing the manuscript.....right up to the time of his death.

    "Chas. Kennison wrote that manuscript."

    I assume you mean Charles Fredrick Higham, who also wrote "True Story of Jacob Walzer and his Famous Hidden Gold Mine (The Lost Dutchman)". I have always believed that Higham wrote the manuscript and Brownie later added to it, and possibly deleted some of what Higham originally wrote. That would be why Brownie's family remember him working on the manuscript at the kitchen table.

    I first wrote of that assumption in 2011.


    Thank you for the correction.

    Joe Ribaudo
    Last edited by cactusjumper; Nov 05, 2015 at 12:19 PM.
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  5. #5

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,753
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    For anyone interested in pursuing this story, Matthew's, and others, for the location of the nephew's body is approximately:

    N33 55' 41.8" and W111 26' 13.9" on your GPS.

    That location will put you about 12 miles Northwesterly from Weaver's Needle. The first question that comes to mind, is why Waltz was that far away from the area he was going to send Julia and Rhiney? There are other questions, but that should do for now.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  6. #6
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    For anyone interested in pursuing this story, Matthew's, and others, for the location of the nephew's body is approximately:

    N33 55' 41.8" and W111 26' 13.9" on your GPS.

    That location will put you about 12 miles Northwesterly from Weaver's Needle. The first question that comes to mind, is why Waltz was that far away from the area he was going to send Julia and Rhiney? There are other questions, but that should do for now.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    cactusjumper,

    That is a great question. Here is how I see it, my own personal opinion. If going from point A to point B the quickest, fastest, easiest way was the only consideration it wouldn't make much sense for Waltz to be that far north. But when you put yourself back in Waltz's time and add in several other factors it makes perfect sense.

    When Waltz was mining his diggings he needed to be very careful no one else found his mine. This would involve going a route he could easily use to throw people off his trail and lead them into and through country his mine was not located in.

    In the 1869-1880 time period the road from Phoenix to Fort McDowell was well established. In 1867 the road from McDowell to Camp Reno had been established and maintained. Added to this the Utah Mormons and sheepherders used Morman Flat to cross the Salt river to expand into Lehi (Mesa) and to cross their herds of sheep and cattle from below the Salt up into the Tonto Basin summer grazing areas and beyond. And what I find most important is that by 1876 WW Jones (Doc Jones) had established a tuberculosis sanitarium about where Coon Bluff is located at Blue Point on the Salt River. Jones had previously established a cattle operation near Agua Escondido (Hidden Water). Jones son John Floyd Jones ran that ranch. Waltz and Doc Jones had a long history going back to their California days so I'm sure Waltz felt comfortable in that country.

    I have been over every foot of that route, Fort McDowell to the Agua Escondido site, south to the Salt river crossing at Mormon Flat and into the Superstition Mountains on the south side all the way through to the old Cavaness ranch (Quarter Circle U Ranch). It's a LONG way, it takes a long time, but that's all Waltz had was time. And believe me, if you wanted to lose somebody following you or set up some place and wait to ambush them you would have about 100 excellent locations all along the way to choose from.

    In my opinion, when Waltz went alone to his mine he would take about a week getting there, spend another week or so digging and a third week to return home. I believe he always took different routes when he came and went, not traveling the same exact trails over and over again. He was very cautious and alert while traveling to and from the mine.

    At age 80 and with Julia a woman and Rhiney an inexperienced boy, I don't believe he cared much how they got to the mine/cache. The fastest, quickest, easiest route was the only way he thought Julia and Rhiney had any chance to make it to the mine.

    Just my thoughts for what they're worth.

    Matthew

  7. #7

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    cactusjumper,

    That is a great question. Here is how I see it, my own personal opinion. If going from point A to point B the quickest, fastest, easiest way was the only consideration it wouldn't make much sense for Waltz to be that far north. But when you put yourself back in Waltz's time and add in several other factors it makes perfect sense.

    When Waltz was mining his diggings he needed to be very careful no one else found his mine. This would involve going a route he could easily use to throw people off his trail and lead them into and through country his mine was not located in.

    In the 1869-1880 time period the road from Phoenix to Fort McDowell was well established. In 1867 the road from McDowell to Camp Reno had been established and maintained. Added to this the Utah Mormons and sheepherders used Morman Flat to cross the Salt river to expand into Lehi (Mesa) and to cross their herds of sheep and cattle from below the Salt up into the Tonto Basin summer grazing areas and beyond. And what I find most important is that by 1876 WW Jones (Doc Jones) had established a tuberculosis sanitarium about where Coon Bluff is located at Blue Point on the Salt River. Jones had previously established a cattle operation near Agua Escondido (Hidden Water). Jones son John Floyd Jones ran that ranch. Waltz and Doc Jones had a long history going back to their California days so I'm sure Waltz felt comfortable in that country.

    I have been over every foot of that route, Fort McDowell to the Agua Escondido site, south to the Salt river crossing at Mormon Flat and into the Superstition Mountains on the south side all the way through to the old Cavaness ranch (Quarter Circle U Ranch). It's a LONG way, it takes a long time, but that's all Waltz had was time. And believe me, if you wanted to lose somebody following you or set up some place and wait to ambush them you would have about 100 excellent locations all along the way to choose from.

    In my opinion, when Waltz went alone to his mine he would take about a week getting there, spend another week or so digging and a third week to return home. I believe he always took different routes when he came and went, not traveling the same exact trails over and over again. He was very cautious and alert while traveling to and from the mine.

    At age 80 and with Julia a woman and Rhiney an inexperienced boy, I don't believe he cared much how they got to the mine/cache. The fastest, quickest, easiest route was the only way he thought Julia and Rhiney had any chance to make it to the mine.

    Just my thoughts for what they're worth.

    Matthew
    Matthew,

    Logically speaking, what you theorize makes sense. On the other hand, the longer a man spent going from point A to point B, alone and through such desolate country, needing water and feed for his animals, the greater the odds of his getting into trouble.......Apache were still problematic in those times and they would be needing the same things as Waltz.

    I would think it would also make sense.....quick in and quick out. I don't believe it was all that well known that Waltz had a very rich gold mine.....anywhere. After he died everyone knew about it. I call it the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. Many people tend to make up there own version of history as they go along. They insert themselves into that history trying to make for themselves, some form of being immortal. Believe that has always been true.

    I hope all is well with you and your family.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Last edited by cactusjumper; Nov 06, 2015 at 12:49 PM.
    Oroblanco and autofull like this.
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  8. #8
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
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    cactusjumper,

    Yes, those are good valid points also. My post is merely my belief and why I believe those things, it is by no means the only explanation or even the right one.

    Matthew

  9. #9
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
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    Good Afternoon: One must remember that Waltz had spent most of his adult life avoiding Indians, through California and Arizona, so I would suspect that he knew what he was doing. He had been prospecting a long time and know what supplies to take, how to pack an animal, and where the water sources were located, and a safe place to camp for the night. We are dealing with a seasoned old time prospector who knows the ropes. One must judge him on the standards of his day and not on the standards of most of today's green horn prospectors. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

  10. #10

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    Good Afternoon: One must remember that Waltz had spent most of his adult life avoiding Indians, through California and Arizona, so I would suspect that he knew what he was doing. He had been prospecting a long time and know what supplies to take, how to pack an animal, and where the water sources were located, and a safe place to camp for the night. We are dealing with a seasoned old time prospector who knows the ropes. One must judge him on the standards of his day and not on the standards of most of today's green horn prospectors. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    Greg,

    Hope all is well with you.

    As a student of American history as well as the Southwest, I'm sure you are aware of the many stories of old prospectors and mountain men who were turned into porcupines by Native Americans. Gold/greed made many a man's thinking turn to mush. It's well known in the history, I have read, that Waltz feared the Indians. His experiences up in the Bradshaws were lessons I doubt he ever forgot, not to mention his finding his partner killed by the Indians and hightailing it out of there......not to return for a number of years and then, likely, only one more time. Don't believe he would be considered some kind of warrior or Indian fighter.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Last edited by cactusjumper; Nov 06, 2015 at 02:43 PM.
    Oroblanco and Ryano like this.
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  11. #11
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
    3449 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Greg and cactusjumper,

    I don't believe Waltz was a warrior either but agree with Greg that Waltz certainly learned how to be cautious and avoid trouble, his past history taught him how to do that.
    One has to put things in perspective, in 1871 both the Fort Verde and San Carlos Reservations were opened and most all the Apache and Yavapai went in or faced starvation and being hunted down by the Army. Some Indians stayed out and some jumped the reservation but they were few and far between and almost all their activity was in Southern and Southeastern Arizona and into old Mexico.

    Certainly there was some danger around the Superstitions but it was greatly reduced after 1871 and as soon as the reservations were operating ranches and business began to boom all over the land where the Indians had previously reigned supreme. Waltz probably had more to fear from white and Mexican bandits and thieves than the indian population. Doc Jones had even opened a tuberculosis sanitarium at Blue Point on the Salt River in 1876 so the area was fairly safe for that to have been possible.

    Once again it's all opinion and conjecture and I certainly could be looking at it all wrong.

    Matthew

  12. #12
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    818
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Matthew,

    You are, of course, correct. I should have said Brownie denied writing the manuscript.....right up to the time of his death.

    "Chas. Kennison wrote that manuscript."

    I assume you mean Charles Fredrick Higham, who also wrote "True Story of Jacob Walzer and his Famous Hidden Gold Mine (The Lost Dutchman)". I have always believed that Higham wrote the manuscript and Brownie later added to it, and possibly deleted some of what Higham originally wrote. That would be why Brownie's family remember him working on the manuscript at the kitchen table.

    I first wrote of that assumption in 2011.


    Thank you for the correction.

    Joe Ribaudo
    cactusjumper,

    I just read your edited post and saw the part about Kennison vs. Higham.
    No I am not confusing the two. Charles Kennison did indeed write the Brownie Holmes Manuscript.
    John Lindley Higham, a.k.a. Charles Frederick Higham (pen name) donated the Holmes Manuscript to the Arizona Library and Archives Department.
    You are right that something very strange went on with the writing and donation of that manuscript and it would take too much space and get off topic to explain it here. Watch for a separate thread.
    Brownies family could not possibly have seen him writing his manuscript at the kitchen table because in 1944 when the Holmes manuscript was written Brownie had not even been married. The kitchen table story is just another misconception.

    Matthew
    Last edited by Matthew Roberts; Nov 06, 2015 at 04:21 PM.
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  13. #13
    us
    Marine

    Aug 2015
    Santa Rosa Beach
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    The Nephew Murder. I have been kicking this angle around for a bit. Multiple accounts state that he killed the nephew due to the nephew wanting to make the mine public in some way, shape, or form. He was then killed because of this. What I keep asking myself are these two questions. 1. Was it premeditated or a spur of the moment act? 2. Did it actually happen? This is a key angle to research and mark off the "clue" list. Here is why I believe it to be a possible key factor.
    If this was a heat of the moment killing, we can assume that this was a route used by the Dutchman to go back and forth. The Dutchman supposedly dragged the body to the burial site by using a chain. I do not picture anyone riding on horse or donkey with a dead body for a long distance much less dragging one a long distance with a chain. We can assume that the burial site is close to a travel route used by The Dutchman.
    If this was a premeditated killing we can assume a few things. 1. He killed the nephew close to where he was planning on burying the body. 2. He could plan his travel route to coordinate in the killing/burying the body. 3. The nephews murder being a clue dwindles in value.
    If anyone has any thoughts on this, I would love to hear opinions. I apologize to everyone that sent me messages with information. Work has been brutal this week, but I plan on reaching out to everyone tomorrow. I hope that this finds all of you well!

  14. #14
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Hola amigos;
    I had intended to stay out of this thread but have to add a bit.

    First, the story as we have it via the Holmes manuscript is suspect, period. We know that we can show points in it that are false, like Waltz not being a citizen. This alone should raise some red flags. That is not to say that the entire thing has no value of course, but we should not take it too literally.

    Second, have to agree with Greg, that we should not try to make our assumptions and conclusions based on what a modern foot-bound or quad-mounted greenhorn treasure hunter would or would not do. Most prospectors of Waltz's day traveled on horseback or mule, and could easily cover 40 miles in a day. Cavalry troops often could cover 75 miles in a day or even more. Not the ten or twelve miles one may hike on foot, nor the hundreds of miles you could cover on a quad. There is also an important difference in that a mounted man can literally see considerably farther than a man on foot or a quad, being seated higher from the ground.

    Third, as to Waltz being a coward etc this is groundless. Waltz was an active prospector in Arizona in the 1860s, which as a student of history you know that time period was especially hazardous to the health of any 'white' (or black, Mexican etc) prospectors away from a settlement or fort. Even the weapons available to defend yourself were not as effective nor rapid firing, in fact the old muzzle loaders were very much common and in use. It took some guts to go out into the un-mapped wilds of Arizona in the 1860s armed with a muzzle loader, regardless. And Waltz was known to travel ALONE - which even today requires some extra level of self confidence. Also we might note that Waltz was viewed as possibly a dangerous man when he was alive, certainly if we grant credence to the Holmes manuscript it is clear that Waltz was not a man to be trifled with.

    Fourth, as to the supposed story of the murdered nephew and finding the remains, and I can only speak for myself but I have not found any trace of any nephew to Jacob Waltz ever being present in Arizona, period. We DO have the intriguing and parallel story of the Ludy/Peralta mine, and have military records of two men named Ludy or Ludi, with an eighteen year age difference between them. They may have been brothers, or father and son OR possibly uncle and nephew! This may be the origin of the nephew tale.

    Fifth, IMHO this legend that is so popular is really an amalgamation of several different, and unrelated lost mine stories. Otherwise we must explain how the Ludy/Peralta story (which began as a lost SILVER mine, later is known as a gold mine) has so many parallels to the Waltz tale as we get it from Holmes and Julia/Reiney. (And by default, Sims Ely, Jim Bark, Bicknell, Storm et al - all the authors that followed)

    I am sure that some are content to accept that the "H-ll I was there" syndrome explains away the alternate story of the lost Dutchman mine, however one might wonder why then, if these people being interviewed at the old PIoneers home, would have such a DIFFERENT version from the popular ones? I hold that is evidence that the old timers being interviewed in the Depression were not simply making up the story to insert themselves into history, rather they were telling of what they knew.

    There are some key parallels too, like Florence and Adams mill being major points of the Waltz and Weiser stories, and here we have in the Pioneer Interviews those same landmarks being important as well. Also, we might consider the fact that SO many tens of thousands of people have searched, following the Holmes, Julia/Reiney or Sims Ely and Jim Bark versions, over much of the Superstitions without success. If either or both of those versions were correct, does it make sense that we could have had SO many people search for SO long, without finding the mine? On the other hand, how many have tried searching the area described in the Pioneer Interviews - namely the side canyons of Pinto creek? Plus it is a known fact that gold does occur in Pinto creek, so it is perfectly logical that a source lode may well exist there, perhaps in a side canyon just as the Pioneer Interviews say. Gold has been produced from Pinto creek - how much gold has been produced in the western part of the Superstitions?

    Sorry for the long winded post, please do continue.
    Oroblanco
     
     
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  15. #15
    us
    Marine

    Aug 2015
    Santa Rosa Beach
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    I cannot give enough thanks for everyone replying to my question. Regardless of what your personal research has dug up, it is always nice to hear all sides. Thanks again!!
    Oroblanco, cactusjumper and davin like this.

 

 
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