Walt Gasslers Notes on Dutchman Legend

[Old]

Thanks for the reply Deducer,

What are you trying to tell me? That its too far for one day? Terrain too tough? Can't get there by horse? Sorry, I'm dense.

How many foot miles is it and what's the nature of the path to get there?

There has always been speculation that Mr. Gassler was packed into his camp. I don't know whether that's a real possibility or not.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Like my Yaqui's Sam.

 

[gollum]

Lynda,

The only person that might have packed Walt Gassler into the mountains would have been a guy named Jerry Sherwood (I believe). Sherwood used to work for Crazy Jake too, but I am told that Walt Gassler did know him. When I asked Roland Gassler about him, he said that he had no knowledge of his dad knowing Jerry Sherwood.

Regarding Gassler being packed in, there are not that many people that #1 Walt Gassler would have trusted to take him to his camp, and #2 that could pack someone into the mountains. I think most people that could, have been spoken to over the years, and I don't recall anybody ever saying Gassler had contacted them about being packed in. Also, Tom K in every version of the story says that Gassler only contacted two people before heading into the mountains (Bob C and Tom K). If Walt did know Jerry Sherwood, and Sherwood did pack him in, then it would easy for him to tell his boss Crazy Jake that Walt Gassler was around.

There are some places in the Supers that I wouldn't want to take a horse into, but I am no Cowboy. I grew up around Tennessee Walkers and Sulky Racehorses (my grandfather had stables when I was little). Some canyons are very boulder-choked or brush-choked (or both). I have always thought that was what Waltz meant when he said that "No Cowboy will ever find my mine..." (if he actually said it). I think he may have meant that the canyon around the area of his mine is boulder or brush strewn so bad, that a horse couldn't get close.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Lots of trails in there these days. Don't believe it would kill a horse to do eighteen miles round trip, with a short distance off trail. Tom K. took care of his animals, but he would ride a horse where many would not go. He knew what he was doing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

For anyone who questions just how far you can ride a horse, and over rough terrain, you should look at the map at the beginning of Part I of Tom Kollenborn and James Swanson's "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time".

Try hiking up Hog Canyon or Hieroglyphic. Hike to the top of the Main Mountain Ridge from the northern side. You might be surprised where a man with Tom's experience and knowledge can ride a good mountain horse. I know Greg Davis was.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Like I said, I have never claimed to be a Cowboy. I will bow to experience. I have had to boulder hop several places that I highly doubt anybody could get a horse through. I can demonstrate all the gates of a Tennessee Walker, and I still have a pic of me in my riding silks somewhere:



My Grandfather had those made for me to match his. That is where I got my childhood nickname "ROOSTER". He said I looked like a little rooster running around The Celebration in them HAHAHA ...... and here is me in my own Sulky (me, my dad, and that cool BRAND NEW 1966 Beetle):



Mike

 

[Old]

I think that 18 mile estimate only works if your horse is Pegasus and flies in on a straight line <g>. I’m thinking it’s more like a 32 mile round trip (at least) where you’d have to navigate around ridges and steep drops. 32 miles is do-able but at slow and cautious speeds it would be an all day trip.

I don’t have the personal experiences you guys have and can only go by the hiking trail photos and videos. Although I’d be concerned about pulling a shoe, the photos show terrain that is tricky but not impossible. But; I could be very wrong. That’s why I’m asking.

The point of all this is that the folks that say they turned up during Mr. Gassler’s trip and the ones that found him weren’t just passing through on an afternoon ride. If they were in fact there and met up with Mr. Gassler I don’t think it was accidental. They were purposely in that area and went to considerable effort to be there. That doesn’t imply any bad motive. I would think it was more of a having a look see about what the old gentleman was up to. I’m thinking any bad actions came after the sheriff took his inventory, not before.

Of course all that goes out the window if Dave is correct that this was a study stream of traffic area. Kind of a Grand Central Station. That just doesn't fit for my idea of a prime location for Jake's lost and lonesome mine site. That could just be my Hollywood vision of the setting of Jake's mine

Hey Mike were your grandfathers Walkers show Walkers or flat shod? I’ve never shown Walkers but have been a co-exhibitor at many shows where they attend. Those folks know how to have a good time <g>. Some of the more memorable barn parties.

 

[coazon de oro]

Nice picture Mike, you haven't changed much, still bigger than the horse.

 

[azdave35]

I think that 18 mile estimate only works if your horse is Pegasus and flies in on a straight line <g>. I’m thinking it’s more like a 32 mile round trip (at least) where you’d have to navigate around ridges and steep drops. 32 miles is do-able but at slow and cautious speeds it would be an all day trip.

I don’t have the personal experiences you guys have and can only go by the hiking trail photos and videos. Although I’d be concerned about pulling a shoe, the photos show terrain that is tricky but not impossible. But; I could be very wrong. That’s why I’m asking.

The point of all this is that the folks that say they turned up during Mr. Gassler’s trip and the ones that found him weren’t just passing through on an afternoon ride. If they were in fact there and met up with Mr. Gassler I don’t think it was accidental. They were purposely in that area and went to considerable effort to be there. That doesn’t imply any bad motive. I would think it was more of a having a look see about what the old gentleman was up to. I’m thinking any bad actions came after the sheriff took his inventory, not before.

Of course all that goes out the window if Dave is correct that this was a study stream of traffic area. Kind of a Grand Central Station. That just doesn't fit for my idea of a prime location for Jake's lost and lonesome mine site. That could just be my Hollywood vision of the setting of Jake's mine

Hey Mike were your grandfathers Walkers show Walkers or flat shod? I’ve never shown Walkers but have been a co-exhibitor at many shows where they attend. Those folks know how to have a good time <g>. Some of the more memorable barn parties.

if you are talking about the distance to charliebois spring it isnt 32 mile trip....you would drive to first water trailhead or tortilla ranch trailhead..from tortilla ranch its about a 5 mile walk...from first water its longer but not too much...probably 5 hour foot hike from first water...and yes there was quite a few scurvy dogs looking for the dutchman in that area back then.......but it is so rugged back in there you could be right on top of the mine and not see it....its not an easy place to search

 

[Oroblanco]

Mike, you were a cute kid! What happened?

I see that others have already addressed the point of where horses can go, and how far they can travel in a day across rough country. It surprises people how much country a horse can cover in a day.

Considering that Walt Gassler was probably not wealthy and had family to care for, it seems not logical that he would then spend the money to hire some outfit to pack his gear in. Also that would be alerting the packers and anyone they talked to, to the area Walter was searching.

 

[deducer]

Thanks for the reply Deducer,

What are you trying to tell me? That its too far for one day? Terrain too tough? Can't get there by horse? Sorry, I'm dense.

How many foot miles is it and what's the nature of the path to get there?

There has always been speculation that Mr. Gassler was packed into his camp. I don't know whether that's a real possibility or not.

Kollenborn wrote about the day Kenworthy convinced a geologist to come look at the strata above Charlebois Springs and hired Kollenborn to pack this feller in. This geologist who was a bit on the older side and hadn't ridden much, nearly didn't make it back out. IIRC it was one day in and then a few days for them to rest this geezer and another day back out.

Anyway, the way I read your question (and I may have read it wrong) was that you were envisioning if you could just take a horse and make a present-day round trip from the OK to Charlebois Springs and back, to which I would readily wager that horses packed out nowadays aren't remotely as conditioned and mountain-tough as they used to be. Hence my answer, albeit a bit of exaggeration.

 

[cactusjumper]

Kollenborn wrote about the day Kenworthy convinced a geologist to come look at the strata above Charlebois Springs and hired Kollenborn to pack this feller in. This geologist who was a bit on the older side and hadn't ridden much, nearly didn't make it back out. IIRC it was one day in and then a few days for them to rest this geezer and another day back out.

I do not believe it was that unusual for folks to make the ride into Charlebois Spring and back out to the trailhead in one day.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Like I said, I have never claimed to be a Cowboy. I will bow to experience. I have had to boulder hop several places that I highly doubt anybody could get a horse through. I can demonstrate all the gates of a Tennessee Walker, and I still have a pic of me in my riding silks somewhere:

View attachment 1241430

My Grandfather had those made for me to match his. That is where I got my childhood nickname "ROOSTER". He said I looked like a little rooster running around The Celebration in them HAHAHA ...... and here is me in my own Sulky (me, my dad, and that cool BRAND NEW 1966 Beetle):

View attachment 1241432

Mike

Mike,

Dale Howard rode a half Tennessee Walker, half Quarter Horse breed. Gait was so easy and smooth, that Dale could fall asleep on the ride back from his claim.

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Gaited horses are more sure footed because they always have three feet on the ground, and the person riding doesn't shift his weight with the smooth ride.

Homar

 

[deducer]

I do not believe it was that unusual for folks to make the ride into Charlebois Spring and back out to the trailhead in one day.

Joe Ribaudo

If I'm not wrong, Old was talking about riding all the way from the OK (in AJ), not from a trailhead (and I assume you mean either First Water or Peralta).

 

[azdave35]

If I'm not wrong, Old was talking about riding all the way from the OK (in AJ), not from a trailhead (and I assume you mean either First Water or Peralta).

actually the ok (and any of the other riding stables) arent in apache junction...they are and were all located around the goldfield area..at the base of the mountains..and if they were packing you in they usually trailered the horses to the trailhead and you left on horseback from there

 

[Old]

Deducer you are right. I was measuring from the OK location to Charlebois Sp. That's where I'm coming up with a much longer round trip.

I apologize. I have a real knack for confusing several different elements of the story together. That's what's confusing the distances.

Dan Shade and Gene Baker "probably" left from the ranch. If they had taken the truck and trailer I think Mr. Feldman would have remembered that. Could be wrong.

Where Dan Russell and TK left from I do not know but that's more likely from the trail head and would have been a shorter distance. Still not a walk in the park ride, but shorter.

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

Early pack trip......pre-OK Corral.



Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

Early pack trip......pre-OK Corral.



Take care,

Joe[/QUOTE

excellent pic joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

As I recall, the packer was Slim Fogle and he met us next to the Blue Bird. We drove out to the First Water Trailhead which, I believe, was a bit west of where it's located today. We were as green as pitch pine. Lucky we survived without anyone the worse for wear. Quite the set of memories for a 13-year old kid. I will be 71 in February.

Take care,

Joe