Ending point: From Weavers needle NE. or NW. or SW. and SE. quadrant and WHY !

[johnnysau]

I am a Arizona native, left it when i was 18 to join the military, unfortunate i never got back
there, currently in Reno, NV. After i saw the show on the LDM it peaked my interest to get some
research done, am thinking of heading back to Arizona to prospect, my thanks to Sgt fda and his show for stoking my fire again, had 2 aunts who lived in Apache junction most of their lives who talked about it on occasion.

What are your thoughts on the ending point from Weavers needle.
Native Arizonan- johnnysau

 

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[cactusjumper]

I am a Arizona native, left it when i was 18 to join the military, unfortunate i never got back
there, currently in Reno, NV. After i saw the show on the LDM it peaked my interest to get some
research done, am thinking of heading back to Arizona to prospect, my thanks to Sgt fda and his show for stoking my fire again, had 2 aunts who lived in Apache junction most of their lives who talked about it on occasion.

What are your thoughts on the ending point from Weavers needle.
Native Arizonan- johnnysau

Johnny,

First of all, thank you for your service. Secondly, welcome to Treasure Net.

There are so many ending points in the Superstitions that it's like a treasure trove in itself. Ask 100 people and you will get 150 answers.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Johnny,

Joe said it best, but I think if any of us REALLY knew where the Dutchman was, we wouldn't be online posting it! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

I am a Arizona native, left it when i was 18 to join the military, unfortunate i never got back
there, currently in Reno, NV. After i saw the show on the LDM it peaked my interest to get some
research done, am thinking of heading back to Arizona to prospect, my thanks to Sgt fda and his show for stoking my fire again, had 2 aunts who lived in Apache junction most of their lives who talked about it on occasion.

What are your thoughts on the ending point from Weavers needle.
Native Arizonan- johnnysau

Well here is one of those 150 answers Cactusjumper referred to!

That clue originates with Pierpont C. Bicknell, when he published an article circa 1895. His earlier 1894 article does not mention it, if memory serves. He stated, and I am typing this from memory so any corrections are welcomed, "..it lies within an imaginary circle not more than five miles in diameter" centered on Weavers Needle. This clue also turned up practically verbatim in Adolph Ruth's notes.

Unfortunately it appears that Waltz may have only stated that there was a "pointed peak" visible from his mine, to the south. There are a number of pointed peaks in this part of Arizona.

Bicknell seems to have mixed together several different lost mine stories which were then (1890s) in circulation in Arizona, in the belief that they were all telling about the same lost mine. They were not, which can be picked out from some of the tidbits of information we can glean from the various sources. For instance, the lost ledge of Apache Jack had black quartz with spots of gold "like stars in the night sky" while the lost Wagoner (also spelled variously Waggoner, Wagonner even Wagner) ledge was rose quartz. Some versions of the lost Doc Thorne mine had it as a vein of white quartz, although the earliest accounts relate very clearly that it was a placer and not a lode at all. This did not prevent treasure writers like Bicknell and Barry Storm from mistakenly mixing the clues and information together, which has helped to keep the lost mine of Jacob Waltz lost.

When this lost mine IS finally found, it will be found in a place that will astonish most people. In fact it may well be found quite close to a road, highway or trail, where many thousands of people have passed it unknowingly. The Superstition mountains geology even supports this contention, for most of the Wilderness Area is not at all promising for gold deposits (NOT to say impossible) while around the southern and eastern edges, the mineralization is quite enriched and quite a few silver and gold mines have been found there. Even the USGS studies indicated that right near the edges of the Wilderness Area on the south side (and east somewhat) are positive indications for silver and gold, even copper. On the NW side of the range we have the Goldfield gold district, which produced a fairly impressive amount of gold in its own right; it is also notable that the Goldfield hills were not really considered a separate range when Waltz was living, and a much larger area was considered to be the Superstitions (aka Salt River, aka Montana del Espuma etc) so it is not a good idea to ONLY focus your search on the Wilderness Area. If you do, you will be excluding some of the most promising areas.

I am sure many will disagree with my next statements, so this is entirely MY OPINION. No offence intended to anyone.

I would recommend to look for a SMALL mine, one that has an opening no larger than a barrel and not more than a dozen feet deep. There is reason to suspect that the huge funnel shaped pit and tunnel below, originated with a different lost mine which was a silver mine. If you think about it this only makes sense; for Waltz was never seen selling large amounts of ore, even the highly debated alleged shipment of ore worth some $250,000, assuming the ore was as rich as the only assay ever done, would not have resulted in a mine excavated any larger than just described. Plus we have it that Waltz made some effort to conceal his mine, laying in ironwood logs and covering with earth, so don't expect to just walk up and spot the thing. It is going to take some digging to find the mine, unless nature has helped out by uncovering it - although ironwood logs have been found over 1000 years old that are still intact so don't count on that either.

Thank you Johnny for your service. Please do continue;

Oroblanco

 

[azdave35]

Well here is one of those 150 answers Cactusjumper referred to!

That clue originates with Pierpont C. Bicknell, when he published an article circa 1895. His earlier 1894 article does not mention it, if memory serves. He stated, and I am typing this from memory so any corrections are welcomed, "..it lies within an imaginary circle not more than five miles in diameter" centered on Weavers Needle. This clue also turned up practically verbatim in Adolph Ruth's notes.

Unfortunately it appears that Waltz may have only stated that there was a "pointed peak" visible from his mine, to the south. There are a number of pointed peaks in this part of Arizona.

Bicknell seems to have mixed together several different lost mine stories which were then (1890s) in circulation in Arizona, in the belief that they were all telling about the same lost mine. They were not, which can be picked out from some of the tidbits of information we can glean from the various sources. For instance, the lost ledge of Apache Jack had black quartz with spots of gold "like stars in the night sky" while the lost Wagoner (also spelled variously Waggoner, Wagonner even Wagner) ledge was rose quartz. Some versions of the lost Doc Thorne mine had it as a vein of white quartz, although the earliest accounts relate very clearly that it was a placer and not a lode at all. This did not prevent treasure writers like Bicknell and Barry Storm from mistakenly mixing the clues and information together, which has helped to keep the lost mine of Jacob Waltz lost.

When this lost mine IS finally found, it will be found in a place that will astonish most people. In fact it may well be found quite close to a road, highway or trail, where many thousands of people have passed it unknowingly. The Superstition mountains geology even supports this contention, for most of the Wilderness Area is not at all promising for gold deposits (NOT to say impossible) while around the southern and eastern edges, the mineralization is quite enriched and quite a few silver and gold mines have been found there. Even the USGS studies indicated that right near the edges of the Wilderness Area on the south side (and east somewhat) are positive indications for silver and gold, even copper. On the NW side of the range we have the Goldfield gold district, which produced a fairly impressive amount of gold in its own right; it is also notable that the Goldfield hills were not really considered a separate range when Waltz was living, and a much larger area was considered to be the Superstitions (aka Salt River, aka Montana del Espuma etc) so it is not a good idea to ONLY focus your search on the Wilderness Area. If you do, you will be excluding some of the most promising areas.

I am sure many will disagree with my next statements, so this is entirely MY OPINION. No offence intended to anyone.

I would recommend to look for a SMALL mine, one that has an opening no larger than a barrel and not more than a dozen feet deep. There is reason to suspect that the huge funnel shaped pit and tunnel below, originated with a different lost mine which was a silver mine. If you think about it this only makes sense; for Waltz was never seen selling large amounts of ore, even the highly debated alleged shipment of ore worth some $250,000, assuming the ore was as rich as the only assay ever done, would not have resulted in a mine excavated any larger than just described. Plus we have it that Waltz made some effort to conceal his mine, laying in ironwood logs and covering with earth, so don't expect to just walk up and spot the thing. It is going to take some digging to find the mine, unless nature has helped out by uncovering it - although ironwood logs have been found over 1000 years old that are still intact so don't count on that either.

Thank you Johnny for your service. Please do continue;

Oroblanco

if i were you i wouldn't pay much attention to what geologists say about the superstition wilderness ..there are many rich copper,gold and silver mines in the mountains...anyone that has spent time up there knows where some of these mines are......the palmer mine...miller mines...mines that chuck crawford worked just to name a few...i can take you to a 4 ounce per ton gold deposit by second water spring and some very good silver mines in the canyon north of there and thats just the tip of the iceberg

 

[nobodie]

oroblanco,
I wish that I could write as eloquently as you do, I mostly agree with you.

 

[nobodie]

oroblanco,
I wish that I could write as eloquently as you do, I mostly agree with you.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Nobodie, you posted -- I mostly agree with you. ( in reference to Oro de Tayopa )


"Mostly ".. "mostly" ?? I'll have you know that Oro is -- well he is Oro. a perfectionist, "he don make no stinkin mistakes."

 

[nobodie]

If that is true then I am partly wrong.

 

[Oroblanco]

Nobodie, you posted -- I mostly agree with you. ( in reference to Oro de Tayopa )


"Mostly ".. "mostly" ?? I'll have you know that Oro is -- well he is Oro. a perfectionist, "he don make no stinkin mistakes."

Oh I must beg to differ there amigo, have plenty of mistakes under my belt; however my luck in friends has been unmatched and continues to be so. I could be mistaken on everything relating to the LDM, but so far not in friends!

 

[Oroblanco]

Almost forgot, but on that alleged shipment of $250,000 worth of gold ore, while sounding fantastical, would really only equate to less than two and a half tons of ore from the LDM, assuming it all ran as rich as the assay done by Joe Porterie (($110,000 per ton)) so does not equate to a huge mine excavation. Two and a half tons of rock would not even require a hole a dozen feet deep and the size of a barrel in fact.

Please do continue;

 

[azdave35]

Almost forgot, but on that alleged shipment of $250,000 worth of gold ore, while sounding fantastical, would really only equate to less than two and a half tons of ore from the LDM, assuming it all ran as rich as the assay done by Joe Porterie (($110,000 per ton)) so does not equate to a huge mine excavation. Two and a half tons of rock would not even require a hole a dozen feet deep and the size of a barrel in fact.

Please do continue;

if the vein containing the gold was only 18 inch wide...it would take alot more than just a 12 foot deep hole..you would have to remove quite a few tons of country rock to get 2.5 tons of vein material out

 

[gollum]

Roy,

At the time, I didn't place a whole lot of stock in the idea, but the more I think about it, the better the idea seems. The idea was that of Thomas Glover. It was his position that Waltz was mixing up stories of a few different mines. Julia and Rhiney said Waltz' description of the mine was two open pits about 75 feet apart with a tunnel at the bottom of the wash. That description matches almost exactly with that of (I believe) The Gross Lode (one of Waltz Claims in the Bradshaws).

The description that comes from Dick Holmes sounds a lot more likely. A small hole with a shaft that angled down. When you climb down into the shaft, you are looking up at the 18" wide main seam of white quartz studded with pinhead sized nuggets. Next to a hanging ledge of gold in hematite that ran almost 30% pure.

Now, you may or may not choose to believe the Dick Holmes Story. I personally choose to believe the part of the story as Clay tells it. I also believe that Dick, Brownie, and later Clay shared some secrets that may never see the light of day, except for a few close people.

For anybody that may not have had the pleasure of hearing Father Clay's Sermon, I posted a copy of it on YouTube so I could link to it here.



Enjoy - Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

if the vein containing the gold was only 18 inch wide...it would take alot more than just a 12 foot deep hole..you would have to remove quite a few tons of country rock to get 2.5 tons of vein material out

Who says it is 18 inches wide? Can we be sure that Waltz ever said this, and was he talking about the lost mine or another he had years earlier?

 

[azdave35]

Who says it is 18 inches wide? Can we be sure that Waltz ever said this, and was he talking about the lost mine or another he had years earlier?

regardless of how big the vein is you still have to remove 10 times more country rock than vein...come on roy...you claim to be a hardrock miner..you should know this

 

[Oroblanco]

regardless of how big the vein is you still have to remove 10 times more country rock than vein...come on roy...you claim to be a hardrock miner..you should know this

Addressing your last part first, NO, I never have claimed to BE a hardrock miner. I was taught that you don't call yourself a gold miner until you have filled a mason jar with gold, and I have never done that. A prospector yes, but not a miner by those standards.

The amount of country rock you have to remove really depends on the size of the vein Dave, you should know that. Especially for a man working with just hand tools, not explosives, he was not going to be busting up any more rock than was absolutely necessary to get some gold. This waste rock should be a key clue to help anyone find the mine. However I have seen one mine that had NO waste rock at all, and can not explain it for it had to have some yet there was none to be found anywhere around it. The point was that the lost Dutchman mine probably was not worked to any great extent. There was no need to, when a couple of tons of the ore would have netted nearly a quarter million dollars.

 

[somehiker]

Perhaps the ore shipment in question came from the Big Rebel or Gross Lode mines, instead of Waltz's "lost" mine.
If that was the case, it may have involved a greater tonnage at less value per ton.

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

As I have said.......many times, I don't know $#!t about rocks, but I can imagine a rich vein of gold, that you could pick the metal out without needing any tonnage at all. Arizona had many very rich surface lodes that pinched out rather quickly. The Bully Bueno was one such mine.



If anyone wishes to visit this old historic mine, I will be happy to supply the GPS Coordinates. Try not to believe some of the BS stories that some folks claim as the location of the mine. We are in front of it in the above picture.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Gentlemen,

As I have said.......many times, I don't know $#!t about rocks, but I can imagine a rich vein of gold, that you could pick the metal out without needing any tonnage at all. Arizona had many very rich surface lodes that pinched out rather quickly. The Bully Bueno was one such mine.



If anyone wishes to visit this old historic mine, I will be happy to supply the GPS Coordinates. Try not to believe some of the BS stories that some folks claim as the location of the mine. We are in front of it in the above picture.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

joe...arizona is known for its rich pockets that pinched out after 10-15 foot...especially the goldfield area...the reason being is the block faulting in the area..but most of the rich veins i have seen were pretty small so you still had to remove alot of country rock to get the vein out....the first couple foot of vein would come out without too much trouble but after that its gets much more difficult

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

Lots of this stuff in front of that mine entrance:



Take care,

Joe