Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[Azquester]

Ha, I learn something new every day.
Gay men make lousy LDM hunters.

Wait, no one has found it yet...

Funny you should say that. Don't you think some of the women involved with the hunt are Trans-Gender? I saw the forest service putting in a new bathroom the other day at the Peralta trail head. It said: Men, Women, and TGDH (Transgender or Gay Dutch Hunters). The toilet was small but the drinking fountain was huge and on the floor! So someone said after using it. I said you nimrod-(ett) that's a Bidet. She (or he) said they'd never heard of one butt the water tasted "funny".

I said that's for the happy trails!

LDMDAO!

 

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[Hal Croves]

Funny you should say that. Don't you think some of the women involved with the hunt are Trans-Gender? I saw the forest service putting in a new bathroom the other day at the Peralta trail head. It said: Men, Women, and TGDH (Transgender or Gay Dutch Hunters). The toilet was small but the drinking fountain was huge and on the floor! So someone said after using it. I said you nimrod-(ett) that's a Bidet. She (or he) said they'd never heard of one butt the water tasted "funny".

I said that's for the happy trails!

LDMDAO!

Honestly Bill, live and let live is about all I understand of it.
My advice to those hiking into the range is to pack baby-wipes.
It is an "essential", right after water, food, a decent hat, and tweezers (ouch!).

 

[audigger53]

Toilet paper in a ziplock works good. Stays dry until needed. Old fashioned Rock Hammer works good for make a needed hole. Amodium AD was always in the pack also. There are more ways to loose moisture than sweating. LOL

 

[nobodie]

I think this has gone down the toilet.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

The john, the john please nobodie.

 

[Azquester]

Gone down the Bidet guys, the Bidet!

But seriously folks, yesterday, I had some equipment picked up and delivered. I was surprised to see it was a woman doing the haul. Her name was Julia. Later on that night my daughter informed me that Julia was a man! I would've never known had she not told me. Not a "Sheila" as Crocodile Dundee would say!

Many immigrants years back would pretend to be a man or woman just to get into the country. Now all you have to do is be a third world illiterate.

 

[Hal Croves]

Some genealogical information.

James Wilson Davis (of Denton Texas) 18__ -1890 - Known As: Jas. W. Davis, Dick Davis

married...

Harriet Walker (1840-1911) Mother Craig (Ohio or Missouri)

and had...

Wayne Davis b.1878 =d.1914(suicide by gunshot)
William Davis
Robert Davis
Charles Davis
? - Mrs. (Henry) Burris
Rosa - Mrs. (Claude) Sanderson
Ida - Mrs. (Richard James Jr.) Holmes - b.1868 =d.1943

Before marrying Dick Holmes, Ida (Davis) married William Roberts in 1883.
​

Ida and William had a son named Jesse Franklin (Roberts) Holmes, b.1884=d.1947 (suicide by gunshot)

William and Ida separate (reason/date unknown) and she marries Dick Holmes in 1888.

Ida and Dick have a son, George Brownie Holmes.




​

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, I noticed one of the old newspaper stories ('Still No Solution of Desert Mystery', Arizona Republic Feb 5th, 1908) that you posted earlier listed a Wayne Davis as Deputy Sheriff in Phoenix. I wonder if he was Dick Holmes' brother-in-law (Wayne Davis) posted in the list above.
Probably is a fairly common name and I don't know if the dates jibe. I'll let you professional researchers sort that out.

That's Brownie's uncle, Ida's brother.
Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, April 07, 1914, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress


EarnieP, look at Wayne's OCCUPATION and PLACE OF BURIAL. His connection to the Sheriff's Department and AZ Rangers is omitted/ here:
http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/012/10121931.pdf


Here is the DC for Jesse Franklin Holmes.
Salesman at ___________ .
http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/080/10800245.pdf

 

[Hal Croves]

At the top of the genealogical info list is James Wilson Davis.
Arizona weekly journal-miner. (Prescott, Ariz.) 1885-1903, April 09, 1890, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

And EarnieP...
Tombstone epitaph. (Tombstone, Ariz.) 1887-current, April 12, 1890, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress


The wife of James Wilson Davis, Harriet (Walker) Davis DC:
http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/009/10092398.pdf

 

[Hal Croves]

Jim Bark wrote that Gideon Roberts was with Waltz when he died and not Dick Holmes.
Dick and Ida owning a share of the Onyx Mine confirms this.
So, Bark is a credible source even thou he made a few mistakes, intentional or not.

The suggestion is that Gideon Roberts was William Roberts brother and, the uncle of Jesse Franklin (Roberts) Holmes.
There were several Gideon Roberts in the Territory at the time....

 

[Old]

Just for the record...........

I don't know if Richard (Dick) Holmes officially adopted Jesse Franklyn but Jesse Franklyn (Franklin) used the surname, Holmes, from an early age until his death. His draft cards, marriage, social security records and death certificate all carry the name Jesse F. (Franklyn/Franklin) Holmes.

As another interesting aside, Richard J. Holmes, Jr. (Dick Holmes) repeatedly listed his place of birth as California, not Arizona.

 

[Hal Croves]

Just for the record...........

I don't know if Richard (Dick) Holmes officially adopted Jesse Franklyn but Jesse Franklyn (Franklin) used the surname, Holmes, from an early age until his death. His draft cards, marriage, social security records and death certificate all carry the name Jesse F. (Franklyn/Franklin) Holmes.

As another interesting aside, Richard J. Holmes, Jr. (Dick Holmes) repeatedly listed his place of birth as California, not Arizona.

So much about Richard James "Dick" Holmes Jr. has been misrepresented. An interview:
Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, April 13, 1921, Section Two, Page PAGE FOUR, Image 18 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

 

[EarnieP]

That's Brownie's uncle, Ida's brother.
Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, April 07, 1914, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress


EarnieP, look at Wayne's OCCUPATION and PLACE OF BURIAL. His connection to the Sheriff's Department and AZ Rangers is omitted/ here:
http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/012/10121931.pdf


Here is the DC for Jesse Franklin Holmes.
Salesman at ___________ .
http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/080/10800245.pdf

Thanks Hal, I was trying to find the connection but you are way too fast for me.

Following Deputy Wayne Davis through the old Arz. newspapers shows what a talented and diversified man he was.
The articles that covered Wayne Davis in the Arizona Republic in Dec 11, 1909 through March 1910 paint a particularly humorous picture, including that month off to go duck hunting. I wonder why he did that?

 

[Hal Croves]

Thanks Hal, I was trying to find the connection but you are way too fast for me.

Following Deputy Wayne Davis through the old Arz. newspapers shows what a talented and diversified man he was.
The articles that covered Wayne Davis in the Arizona Republic in Dec 11, 1909 through March 1910 paint a particularly humorous picture, including that month off to go duck hunting. I wonder why he did that?

EarnieP,

Absolutely, but something obviously snapped.
He was there when Ranger J.T. Holmes "..., killed an Indian at camp near Roosevelt".
Wayne served as a private in the Arizona Rangers from 1906 to 1908.

Ranger J.T. Holmes was not someone to challenge.

 

[EarnieP]

At the top of the genealogical info list is James Wilson Davis.
Arizona weekly journal-miner. (Prescott, Ariz.) 1885-1903, April 09, 1890, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

And EarnieP...
Tombstone epitaph. (Tombstone, Ariz.) 1887-current, April 12, 1890, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress


The wife of James Wilson Davis, Harriet (Walker) Davis DC:
http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/009/10092398.pdf

You really are excellent at this research business, Hal. Great finds.

Wayne Davis certainly had trouble with the ladies, otherwise he seemed to have done a lot with his short life.
Thanks for the references.
-----------

Edit;
I just went back and re-read your earlier posts and realized you had already told us Deputy Wayne Davis was Dick Holmes brother-in-law.

Sorry Hal, I'll just sit here and read for awhile.

 

[coazon de oro]

So much about Richard James "Dick" Holmes Jr. has been misrepresented. An interview:
Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, April 13, 1921, Section Two, Page PAGE FOUR, Image 18 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

Howdy Hal,

That was an interview of Dick Holmes, he states he went from cattleman to the furniture business, and later into groceries. He never mentions washing dishes, or operating an onyx mine.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

That was an interview of Dick Holmes, he states he went from cattleman to the furniture business, and later into groceries. He never mentions washing dishes, or operating an onyx mine.

Homar

Only a few possibilities.

• The first, Dick Holmes (Richard James Holmes Jr.) owned the Onyx Mine and the newspaper articles reporting him to be absent from Phoenix when Waltz passed are accurate.
• The second, it was Richard James Homes Sr. who owned the Onyx Mine and the newspaper articles made a mistake in using the name "Dick" to describe him.
• The third, there was another Dick Holmes working as a dishwasher at Coffee Al's restaurant, with a wife named Ida, who both owned a share in the Onyx Mine.

Remember:

• Dick and Ida moved to Phoenix after they were married. Dates work.
• RJ Holmes Senior lived in Kirkland (I think).
• Ida Holmes was involved in selling shares of the Onyx Mine.
• Who would more likely to be washing dishes, a successful prospector/miner who owned several valuable mines or, his hard working son who just married, and just relocated to Phoenix to grow his family?

Dick Holmes owned the Onyx Mine and could not have been there when Waltz died.
Even Jim Bark confirms it.

Now, there could be some compelling piece of evidence that might possible change my mind.
If it exists, I have not seen it.
Have you?

Good to read your posts again coazon de ore.

Hal

 

[Hal Croves]

coazon de ore,

I forgot something that might help to convince you.

From the interview:

"Settling in Phoenix in 1889, Mr. Holmes went first into the cattle business and then into a partnership with B. Heyman, conducting the first furniture store in the city."

Compare the interview to this...

"Fortune has smiled on Dick Holmes, late a dishwasher in Coffee Al's Restaurant, Phoenix. He has received $5000 cash for his interest in an onyx mine north of Phoenix."

Arizona silver belt. (Globe City, Pinal County, Ariz.) 1878-19??, January 21, 1897, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress


And this...

"B. Heyman has purchased the big onyx mine on Cave creek, fifty miles northeast of Phoenix, formerly operated by Reynolds, who some four years ago shipped 300 tons to the east. Mr. Heyman purchased this valuable property from Dick Holmes the dish washer, and his partner, Jim Woodson, paying several thousand dollars for the same, the exact amount of which is unknown."

Arizona weekly journal-miner. (Prescott, Ariz.) 1885-1903, January 27, 1897, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

• Dick Holmes and his partner Jim Woodson owned the Onyx Mine.
• Ida (Davis) Holmes also owned a share.
• B. Heyman, Dick's partner in the furniture store, purchase both Dick's and Ida's shares of the Onyx Mine.

Hard facts to argue against.

I think that there is more to the Holmes Manuscript then the majority of us understand. Hopefully, someone will eventually explain it, and the reason for it.
Like the Stone Maps.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Hal,

I do not need convincing, it is clear enough for me that Dick Holmes Jr. was the dishwasher with the onyx mine partnership who sold his share to Heyman, his son's former furniture partner. Something as big as the onyx mine would have been included in Dick Holmes interview.

Since you like assumptions, why would one share be worth $5,000, and another $500? I really don't know how onyx claims are staked, but if they are done the same as locatable minerals, Dick Holmes Jr. may have used Ida as a way to claim more acres.

Bottom line is that Brownie Holmes got the deathbed confession from his father.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

I do not need convincing, it is clear enough for me that Dick Holmes Jr. was the dishwasher with the onyx mine partnership who sold his share to Heyman, his son's former furniture partner. Something as big as the onyx mine would have been included in Dick Holmes interview.

Since you like assumptions, why would one share be worth $5,000, and another $500? I really don't know how onyx claims are staked, but if they are done the same as locatable minerals, Dick Holmes Jr. may have used Ida as a way to claim more acres.

Bottom line is that Brownie Holmes got the deathbed confession from his father.

Homar

coazon de oro,

Sorry, your post confused me. You wrote that it was clear that Dick Holmes Jr. was the dishwasher but, described Heymen as his (Dick Homes Jr.) "son's" former partner. That would be George Brownie Holmes.

Richard James Holmes Sr. was a successful prospector/miner who lived in the Prescott area. He would not have been washing dishes in 1891/2.

Richard James "Dick" Holmes Jr. was the partner of B. Heyman (Phoenix furniture store), and the partner of James Woodson (onyx mine).

Dick's son, George Brownie Holmes, to the day he died, according to those who knew him best, denied writing the Holmes Manuscript.

The only real assumption that has been made is that R.J. Holmes Sr. owned the Onyx Mine.
Alright, prove it!
Unfortunately, I don't believe that anyone can.

I know almost nothing about mining and mining law. But a wife owning a $500 share of her husbands onyx quarry seems reasonable to me. Ida may have simply backed Dick financially, initially.

"Bottom line" is that Brownie denied writing the manuscript. This means that we don't have ANY direct quote from Brownie stating that his father told him about Waltz's confession. Do you know of one?

The manuscript is a composite fantasy.

Dick moved to Phoenix in 1889, years after Waltz's last trip to his mine (84/85?).