Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[starman 1]

Hal,

I am impressed. Did you happen to notice the observatory near by. Imagine it is really special.


Starman

 

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[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I am impressed. Did you happen to notice the observatory near by. Imagine it is really special.


Starman

Despite my poor vision I was able to locate it with some help and a few laughs.

 

[gollum]

somehiker,
It's iron, appears to have been exposed to fire and not at all difficult to locate. I took pictures and collected several stories about it that I will forward.

View attachment 1275751​

Don't forward them, POST THEM! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[cw0909]

hal now that you have seen it up close, do you have an opinion as to
what it is and when it was made, and does it look like, the 2 pieces
goes together the way it is

somehiker,
It's iron, appears to have been exposed to fire and not at all difficult to locate. I took pictures and collected several stories about it that I will forward.

View attachment 1275751​

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,
It's iron, appears to have been exposed to fire and not at all difficult to locate. I took pictures and collected several stories about it that I will forward.

View attachment 1275751​

That's great.
I'll be looking forward to it.

 

[Azquester]

Hal, did you meet with the curator of the Museum?

She's has all the answers!!

 

[sgtfda]

I thought by now someone would have figured out what it is. It is the key to the OZ library. Even Starman missed that.

 

[gollum]

I thought by now someone would have figured out what it is. It is the key to the OZ library. Even Starman missed that.

Frank,

I believe what we have here is the idol part of a mine shrine. I would have thought the Virgin Mary more likely, but a large crucifix would work. Set that up in some small alcove near a mine, then pack it back to Mexico what its time to go home.

Unless it is more modern.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Frank,

I believe what we have here is the idol part of a mine shrine. I would have thought the Virgin Mary more likely, but a large crucifix would work. Set that up in some small alcove near a mine, then pack it back to Mexico what its time to go home.

Unless it is more modern.

Mike

This practice was used until ca WWII. They often used a local patron saint in the shrines. Here it was Santo Nino de Atocha. Sometimes it was as simple as a crudely scratched cross (or three crosses) on a rock face.

 

[cactusjumper]

This practice was used until ca WWII. They often used a local patron saint in the shrines. Here it was Santo Nino de Atocha. Sometimes it was as simple as a crudely scratched cross (or three crosses) on a rock face.

Steve,

I believe "nino" means child. How does that relate to the artifact?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Steve,

I believe "nino" means child. How does that relate to the artifact?

Thanks,

Joe

In this context, it's "infant" as in the Holy Infant of Atocha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Infant_of_Atocha

The relevancy being this:

In those years silver was discovered in Fresnillo and mines were being opened in the mountains near the settlement. Within a few weeks of the opening of the mine of Fresnillo, there was an explosion and many miners were trapped. The wives of the miners went to the church of St. Augustine to pray for their husbands and noticed that the child on the image of Our Lady of Atocha was missing. At the same time, it was said that a child came to the trapped miners, gave them water and showed them the way out of the mine. Whenever there was a problem at the mine the child helped the miners in need. Each time this happened, the image of the child on the Virgin's arms was found to be dirty and his clothes had little holes in them. After that the Holy Child was taken off his mother's arms and put on a glass box for everyone to see. The Holy Child of Atocha has become a symbol of Zacatecas and the protector of miners. Many make pilgrimages to Plateros at Christmas to bring toys to the Holy Child.

 

[sdcfia]

In this context, it's "infant" as in the Holy Infant of Atocha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Infant_of_Atocha

The relevancy being this: " ... The Holy Child of Atocha has become a symbol of Zacatecas and the protector of miners...

Santo Nino was (is) highly revered not only by Mexican miners, but he was also called upon by prisoners and those who were trapped underground. He still watches the Pinos Altos Range from the front window of the old Catholic church in the village of Pinos Altos (below). If Mike's speculation is correct - that the cast artifact might be a shrine object - it's identification might shed light on the group that was using it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Guys,

I received this comment from a professor who lives in Mexico City: "I looked at the image you sent me, and I have never seen anything like it either. It looks somewhat primitive."

I believe its origin and true meaning will continue to be a mystery.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Azquester]

View attachment 1276411 View attachment 1276412 x 1.5" in width.

​

In my opinion, there are a few things about it that point to a modern casting but I could easily be proven wrong which, would make me very happy. Yes, they are two pieces that were designed to work together. The upper crucifix and the four legged base. Historically described as the Iron Cross, however I believe both are brass unless gold can form this type of patina. Very heavy, and I think that gollum nailed it on the head with what it was used for.



gollum,
They should be professionally photographed if it interests you.

Hal, What it was for is nice but what it depicts is the real mystery. The horned base may be the answer. Looking closer at the top I see what could be considered as a Grail Cup. Then again it may be considered as the Sun or God or both...it looks as though it has it's mouth sowed shut which is interesting...unless its a beard being depicted.

I've seen a lot of places where a drill hole required some sort of measured shaft with a sighting device sort of like Moses staff. Maybe this is a sighting device for locating an area or mine by insertion into a rod for said action?

Or the sun shine through it at the right time of day and year just like the map room in Indiana Jones. It may be another lead based cross like the ones in Tucson.

Do you have a separate picture of the base?


That may be the key to this. If it has four horns it could be what I said earlier. A Pagan cross over from a Mountain Goat God with Christ on the cross or Moses, Atlas, Hercules.

It's definitely not some sort of drinking vessel for rituals.

It could be Masonic very steeped in Allegory.

A Spiritual Journey.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, What it was for is nice but what it depicts is the real mystery. The horned base may be the answer. Looking closer at the top I see what could be considered as a Grail Cup. Then again it may be considered as the Sun or God or both...it looks as though it has it's mouth sowed shut which is interesting...unless its a beard being depicted.

I've seen a lot of places where a drill hole required some sort of measured shaft with a sighting device sort of like Moses staff. Maybe this is a sighting device for locating an area or mine by insertion into a rod for said action?

Or the sun shine through it at the right time of day and year just like the map room in Indiana Jones. It may be another lead based cross like the ones in Tucson.

Do you have a separate picture of the base?


That may be the key to this. If it has four horns it could be what I said earlier. A Pagan cross over from a Mountain Goat God with Christ on the cross or Moses, Atlas, Hercules.

It's definitely not some sort of drinking vessel for rituals.

It could be Masonic very steeped in Allegory.

A Spiritual Journey.

I think that it was designed to be used with the "Iron" crucifix which is so heavy that hanging it would be impractical. When the two halves are assembled, the combination is amazingly stable.

View attachment 1276514 View attachment 1276515 View attachment 1276516
​

 

[Hal Croves]

Guys,

I received this comment from a professor who lives in Mexico City: "I looked at the image you sent me, and I have never seen anything like it either. It looks somewhat primitive."

I believe its origin and true meaning will continue to be a mystery.

Good luck,

Joe

cactusjumper,

I think that in the very near future we will all have a much better understanding of objects like this one and their potential connection to the Superstitions.

But, for now:

TORTILLA FLAT THEN & NOW
STORY OF THE IRON CROSS
(From the Tortilla Flat archives)
L.L. Lombardi - Lois M. Potter-Sanders

"According to a prospector working the mining claims in the area, the cross was found in 1952 in the Superstition Mountains. It is reported to have come from what the early Spanish Jesuit Missionary adventurers called the San Pedro Mine.

The San Pedro gold mine in 1748 was worked with extraordinary success."




Story of the Iron Cross
Author Unknown

"This heavy Iron Crucifix, in a wooden barrel, sat at the end of the bar in Tortilla Flat's, Superstition Saloon for years.

One story went like this: "A prospector working mining claims in the Superstition Mountains around 1952 found the cross hidden in a cave. It was reported to have come from what the early Spanish Jesuit Missionaries called the San Pedro Mine around 1748.

Another story went like this: "Owner Dave Moss, 1974-1980, along with 6 year old nephew, Dino Porter, were hiking the 'Supe's' and found this cross in a cave. Sure they had discovered a fantastic artifact they toted it back to the Flat."

According to Dave's wife, Barbara, and Dino's mother, Judy, the more times the story was told, the more fantastic it became. To their horror, historians from Arizona State University took the cross and actually authenticated it. The reason they were horrified was because the knew the truth. (True story finally told in 2004)

Dave was a great storyteller, but he actually bought the Iron Cross, which was made in Mexico, from Domingus Brothers in Gradalupe. Poor little Dino heard the tale of his finding the cross so many times, he started to believe he did."




Difficult to know the truth here but if ASU did examine it, there would be a record. Also, the Domingus Brothers connection should be researched. It's a fascinating object for sure.

 

[Hal Croves]

Is the symbol on top a form of the 'All-Seeing-eye Pyramid', which can be found on other crucifixes?
According to google search, has an older religious meaning of 'divine providence', but now with more sinister meanings.
What say you experts?

Perhaps one of the most interesting details of the Iron crucifix. Here is a better image of it:

View attachment 1276541
​

 

[sdcfia]

Perhaps one of the most interesting details of the Iron crucifix. Here is a better image of it:

My Christian history is a little rusty, but didn't Jesus spend considerable time in Egypt?

View attachment 1276541

​

 

[EarnieP]

Here's a wild guess;

I've read that the sacramental bread (hostia), used in communion back in those old Spanish days, were often branded with the 'official bakers' identifying mark. Perhaps used to keep counterfeit, unsanctioned host, made by unofficial bakers, from being used (was this a big problem?). Or perhaps it was just to certify to the partaker that he was getting the 'good stuff', the actual sanctified body of Christ in his Eucharist.

I don't know how large the original hostia bread was before broken into the individual pieces, and this crucifix is large and heavy, but is it possible that this metal crucifix object, with it's relatively flat surface and reversed negative image, could have been used for such a thing. A crucifix branding iron?

Is the hole in the back of the object, the location where a wooden handle had once been? Used to hold the hot brand as it was pressed down into into the loaf? And the heavy base used to hold the heated crucifix when not in use, or perhaps even while in the oven?

I do know that many of the modern hostia are now made as small wafers. Many with a maker's mark, usual a simple cross, I assume pressed into the wafer by the baker.

Like I said, just a wild guess, and certainly Mike's idea is better suited, especially due to the location where the Crucifix object was reportedly found.

 

[Hal Croves]

My Christian history is a little rusty, but didn't Jesus spend considerable time in Egypt?

View attachment 1276541 View attachment 1276553

One possible explanation or, at least, something similar:

View attachment 1276568
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