Why were the Peraltas and crew massacred?

[nobodie]

audigger53,
Good story, don't remember hearing that one before. If I remember correctly the Apache deeply hated the Mexicans, it would have been very hard if not impossible to make a payment agreement.

 

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[sgtfda]

More likely the Pima

 

[Azquester]

He's not gonna stop Hooch.
Travis made those stones for gullible "semi-professionals" like Eldo to figger out.
While he and his family worked with the real stuff.
Hey, sometimes the winners play dirty.

So do loser's it's their MO. If Travis was a winner he would've found the Treasure or Gold MIne. All he found were suckers willing to believe his fabricated maps. Eldo is one of Travis's 58 year suckers. Like the rest of us we believed initially in the Stone Maps so he suckered us to. Most of us got over it and discounted the Maps when they made no sense at all. Some still believe they are truly real. Travis as a winner? Hardly...
There's no amount of explanation that'll dig Travis out of the liar's hole he buried himself in. At this point someone would have too show us the money. If Travis had original maps in his possesion he squandered his creds long ago and never proved he was worthy of being a Treasure Finder. IMHO

 

[mdog]

I didn't know where to post this information, so I thought I'd try here, I hope it's ok.

While researching the Treasure Mountain story, I ran across this information, so I thought I'd pass it on.

This note is from an article about Wilbur Fisk Stone.

TCL - Wilbur Fisk Stone - July 2002

Here is note 14 from the story.

14. For a review of Stone and his efforts researching the Spanish Peraltaland grant, see articles by Josiah M. Ward in The Denver Post, Jan. 9-23, 1921, which may be found in the Dawson Scrapbooks, Vol. 31 (Denver, CO: Colorado Historical Society) at 5-15.

There might be something here you can use, but Ward's articles should be well researched for accuracy.

 

[nobodie]

Frank,
I agree, if that story is true, it probably would have been the Pimas. The pimas didn't like the Apache and would be the ones to give protection. If the Peraltas didn't pay then the Pima could have stepped back and let it happen.

 

[Hal Croves]

Frank,
I agree, if that story is true, it probably would have been the Pimas. The pimas didn't like the Apache and would be the ones to give protection. If the Peraltas didn't pay then the Pima could have stepped back and let it happen.

nobodie,
Are are suggesting that the Pima possibly resorted to extortion? If so, could you give one other historical example of them doing?

 

[cactusjumper]

The Pima did not need pay to fight the Apache.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[nobodie]

Hal,
I take it back, that does sound like extortion and what little I have read about the Pima I doubt that they would have done it.
Joe,
That is true.

 

[Azquester]

Date: 1768
Date: 02-00-1769
Series of extractos concerning Sonoran affairs. Note Seri, Pima, Apache depredations from Cumuripa to Caborca. Spanish Boy, captive of rebels, states rebels await Spaniards in Nopalera without fear. Elizondo, Urrea, Anza campaign against rebels. Storms, heat make campaigns difficult. Describes pursuit of Rancheria in Tenuage. Over 200 abandoned Jacales- estimated population of 250. 13 rebels killed- more wounded. Discusses Sibubapa hostilities in Tecoripa area. Cabo, 2 soldiers from Elizondo's troops lag behind to look for lost pistol. Soldiers found hanging from trees, riddled by arrows. Posted bandos forbid admittance to pueblos of any rebels. Rancheria of rebel Seris, Pimas attacked near Pozo Zenizo- 1 man, 5 women, 6 children captured, rest flee, leaving dead horses, wild seeds, deer hides, armor of 3 soldiers killed earlier. 10 Seri families escape in 7 Balsas to Tiburon. Prisoners say rebels afraid, ready to make peace, not hiding in Cerro Prieto because its no longer secure. Tubac troops pursue Apaches- find them at juncture of Gila, San Pedro. Retreat because Apaches out-number them. Discuss hostilities in Ostimuri. State rebels afraid, on the run due to constant Spanish pressure.

Date: 1768
Date: 02-00-1769
Series of extractos concerning Sonoran affairs. Note Seri, Pima, Apache depredations from Cumuripa to Caborca. Spanish Boy, captive of rebels, states rebels await Spaniards in Nopalera without fear. Elizondo, Urrea, Anza campaign against rebels. Storms, heat make campaigns difficult. Describes pursuit of Rancheria in Tenuage. Over 200 abandoned Jacales- estimated population of 250. 13 rebels killed- more wounded. Discusses Sibubapa hostilities in Tecoripa area. Cabo, 2 soldiers from Elizondo's troops lag behind to look for lost pistol. Soldiers found hanging from trees, riddled by arrows. Posted bandos forbid admittance to pueblos of any rebels. Rancheria of rebel Seris, Pimas attacked near Pozo Zenizo- 1 man, 5 women, 6 children captured, rest flee, leaving dead horses, wild seeds, deer hides, armor of 3 soldiers killed earlier. 10 Seri families escape in 7 Balsas to Tiburon. Prisoners say rebels afraid, ready to make peace, not hiding in Cerro Prieto because its no longer secure. Tubac troops pursue Apaches- find them at juncture of Gila, San Pedro. Retreat because Apaches out-number them. Discuss hostilities in Ostimuri. State rebels afraid, on the run due to constant Spanish pressure.

Date: 1770
Date: 12-00-1770
Author: Croix, Marques de
Topics include; 1) Papago unrest; 2) proposed invasion of Tiburon; 3) Pineda's poor health, 4) Pima-sibubapa hostilities in Ostimuri; 4) military personnel changes; 5) general state of Elizondo expedition. Letter dated June 18 relates surrender of 14 Seris, bringing total to 191. Tiburones ask pardon and to be allowed to stay on their Island. Pardon granted with understanding that entire nation pasaria a cuchillo if they committed any hostilities. Pimas under Vipisi go to Sierra de las Espuelas to join Cueras. Seris offer to lead Spaniards to them. In following fight, 4 men, 3 women, 3 children killed, 1 woman, 9 children captured. Rest of Pima rebels escape.

Date: 06-21-1769
Author: Elizondo, Domingo
Pima attempts to sabatoge Spanish-Seri peace. Marcos told by Pimas that Spanish pardon a trick to get all 3 rebel nations together, hang leaders and deport the rest by sea. Seris suspend surrender, but still carry out no hostilities. Crisanto and followers offer to serve as guides against other rebels.

Date: 01-04-1775
Date: 06-18-1776
Author: Fueros, Pedro (Capitan Comisionado)
Fueros discusses status of Placeres at Cieneguilla and problems with hostile Indians causing people not to want to live there. Recounts in detail attacks on mercaderes at nearby Paraje and on men grazing horses and mules (which were stolen). Fears united uprising of Indians and recommends removal of certain Indian groups. Draft letters from viceroy(?) Interspersed with letters. Fueros sends to real Caxa de los Alamos shipments of gold for royal fifth; relaciones for shipments included. Reports on status of production from Placeres and Indian workers. Fueros mentions visit to Altar to See Oconor who was there inspecting troops. Letter from Crespo to viceroy concerning troubles Indians causing in region. Military efforts to defend against Indians and punish them discussed. Fueros named capitan de infanteria.

The Pima's were involved in many depredations and extortions along with the Apaches and Seri's. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to see them just north of the Gila as they lived pretty much all along the Gila and Pedro Rivers. Reading known history above I would dare say it was the Pima themselves that killed the Peralta's!

 

[nobodie]

I think I will keep my mouth shut and stand back.

 

[Azquester]

Here's an interesting document.

Correspondence of viceroy Bucareli and governor Fayni with related testimony by Fernandez de Peralta Fernandez de Peralta, Sandoval Fayni, Josef ... time; testimony on attacks provided by Fernandez de Peralta. (J. Williams, March 1987) ...Date: 02-01-1775
Date: 11-18-1775
Author: Fernandez de Peralta, Sandoval
Concerns Indian raids around Parras, including those that took place at estates of marques de Aguayo; notes worsening situation of region; Bucareli aknowledges and stresses need to cooperate with O'Conor; notes problems of communication between headquarters and field units; increased effect of larger distances on presidio response time; testimony on attacks provided by Fernandez de Peralta.

Could this be the attacks of the Peralta's we've heard so much about?

Or could it have been the Santa Catarina's confused with the Superstition Massacre?

Correspondence of governor Fayni and viceroy Bucareli with related testimony by Peralta ... Peralta, Fernandez 12-03-1774 ... Fernandez de Peralta, Martin Cayetano Estamislao Saenz ...Date: 12-03-1774
Date: 12-21-1774
Author: Fayni, Josef
Concerns discovery of a group of Apostate (traditional) Tarahumaras; who are raiding in area of long inactive presidio of Santa Catalina (whose vecinos que Llama Soldados de presidio de Santa Catarina); includes notes on old strategic role of post in war with Tepehuanes; copies of testimony by Esparza, Nevares, Corral, and Garcia on crimes Indians have undertaken in area; list of items pillaged; encounters with Santa Catarina defense force; locales inhabited by renegades; moonlight assault on village of bandit Indians by Spaniards; capture of Indians; Indian tactics; Indian insolence; and a description of their camp; also; list of Fayni's military awards and titles is included.

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

"The Pima's were involved in many depredations and extortions along with the Apaches and Seri's. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to see them just north of the Gila as they lived pretty much all along the Gila and Pedro Rivers. Reading known history above I would dare say it was the Pima themselves that killed the Peralta's!"

None of your quotes mentions "extortions" by the Pima. Can you provide a single historical citation for such an instance? Both Spanish and American charges of depredations by Native Americans were often confused as to who the guilty parties were. This is especially true of a number of claims against the Apache.

For the most part, the Pima were known as a "friendly" people.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Thats not very complicated Joe, simple survival. Most early tribes were living in a delicate balance between abundance and starvation times. The Peraltas represented an invasion of extra mouths to be fed. Most early tribes were at a semi-constant war / extermination with each other.for territory which represented food. Invaders, extra mouths, were not welcome,

I personally found that out while on the Yucatan project,while game and plant life was fairly easyto find at first, in a little while it outstripped the reproduction rate and we had to constantly move to new teritory. as it took up too much time, somtimes a full day.

 

[Azquester]

Extortion and Kidnapping for monetary or possession gains by the Indians was common place back then. The info below was just some more on the area around the Gila. I'll show you some docs about kidnapping here in a minute, I'll just post these for now. I'm trying to find one that shows evidence of mining north of the Gila. The Pima's had Rebels just like the rest of the tribes.

Author(s): Oviedo, Juan Antonio de (Vice Provincial)
Date:
08-13-1747


Documentation:
Mexico. August 13, 1747. 10p. Letter. Informe. Original. Signed.


Summary:
An extremely important letter from the Jesuit Father provincial de Oviedo to viceroy and auditor de guerra marques de Altamira in which he presents an analysis of the Indian problems in the north- particularly the Apache incursions and outlines a grand strategy for expansion and founding of a new presidio in the Gila, Colorado River area. Additional comments are made concerning difficulties of military logistics, Apache tactics, etc. And ends with comments on the civilian politics of the provinces and recommends that a visitador be sent to clear up divisions and reorganize the administration. (D. Deeds) (1977)


Persons:
Oviedo, Juan Antonio de

Persons:
Altamira, Marques de

Persons:
Balthasar, Juan Antonio

Persons:
Ansa, Juan Baptista de

Persons:
Esisagochea, Martin de (Obispo)


Places:
Sonora (Provincia)

Places:
Sinaloa

Places:
Fronteras

Places:
Terrenate

Places:
Janos

Places:
del Norte

Places:
Pitiqui

Places:
Colorado (Rio)

Places:
Xila


Ethnic Groups:
Apaches

Ethnic Groups:
Hiaquis

Ethnic Groups:
Mayos

Ethnic Groups:
Ceris (Seris)

Ethnic Groups:
Tepocas

Ethnic Groups:
Pimas

Ethnic Groups:
Comaricopas

Ethnic Groups:
Mo

San Ignacio (Pueblo) Gila (Rio) ... Carrizalito (Paraje) Rio Grande del Norte ... Paso del Norte Aconchi (Pueblo) ...Date: 12-15-1775
Date: 03-13-1776
Author: Crespo, Francisco Antonio (Gobernador)
Court case brought against Indian prisoner Gaspar; indication that other Indians including Pimas rebeldes may have been involved in robberies and murders of Spaniards. One testimonio contains identification of various Indians including physical description, marital status, residence, ethnic affiliation and type of dress. Spaniards referred to by Indians as Nacaries. (D. Uhlman, January 1988)

 

[Azquester]

Pima Uprisings happened all through the century.

General Andres de Rezabal to capitan Manuel de Valdes military orders to investigate, punish Seri, Pima uprisings. Rezabal, Andres de (General) ... Rezabal orders Valdes to take 20 soldiers from Sinaloa presidio and investigate, punish Seris, Lower Pimas ...Date: 01-04-1720
Author: Rezabal, Andres de (General)
Rezabal orders Valdes to take 20 soldiers from Sinaloa presidio and investigate, punish Seris, Lower Pimas responsible for scattered murders, robberies, livestock thefts. Additional documents concerning unrest, including wounding of Pima in Nacameri, 0309b-0360a. Mention Yaqui work in mines. Discusses Seri reduccion, resettlement along Rio San Miguel.

INDIO PIMA SHOT BY CAPTAIN MENOCAL FOR ROLE IN PIMA UPRISING. 1751: SUAMCA/LEADER OF PIMA REBELLION Notes: 1751 : ARRESTED FOR ROLE IN UPRISING BY FATHER KELLER AND ORDERED SHOT. ...Death: 1751: SUAMCA
Ethnicity: INDIO PIMA

which rebels then sacked. Describes resistance of Pimas from Onavas to rebels, and Pima ... rebel leader Juan Calixto, who assures Father rebels are catholics and lays blame for uprising ... General, Sj) Maizanani, Juan (Pima Gobernador de ...
Date: 06-30-1740
Author: Arce, Juan Antonio de (Padre)
Concerns Yaqui rebel activity in Ostimuri, Pimeria Baja. Notes abandonment of reales of Rio Chico, Guadalupe, which rebels then sacked. Describes resistance of Pimas from Onavas to rebels, and Pima's victory over rebels, 5 of whom taken prisoner. Includes translation of 6/16/1740 letter to Arce from Yaqui rebel leader Juan Calixto, who assures Father rebels are catholics and lays blame for uprising on gobernador Huidobro, implying Yaqui resistance to imposition of Spanish civil authority. Excellent document.

Date: 00-00-1729
Documentation:
N.p. 1729. 7p. Informe. Copy.


Summary:
Summarizes a years worth of Apache depredations. Gives location of conflicts, number of attackers, number of troops (and their station), number of victims (incl. Pimas and Sobaipuris); describes livestock thefts and slaughters; relates instances of kidnapping of children; describes Apache battle technique including stripping naked and painting themselves. (R. Perez) (1977)

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

I'm well aware of the history of the Pima's and Apache. I thought we were talking about the 1800s. I don't believe there is any historical documentation of the Apache massacring 500 or so Mexicans (Peralta's) in the 1800s. Basically just stories related to treasure hunting and rumors. It's all about someone trying to make a buck.

Kidnapping of white or Mexican children was primarily for bringing them into the different tribes to bolster their population. Future warriors or wives/slaves.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

"An extremely important letter from the Jesuit Father provincial de Oviedo to viceroy and auditor de guerra marques de Altamira in which he presents an analysis of the Indian problems in the north- particularly the Apache incursions and outlines a grand strategy for expansion and founding of a new presidio in the Gila, Colorado River area. Additional comments are made concerning difficulties of military logistics, Apache tactics, etc. And ends with comments on the civilian politics of the provinces and recommends that a visitador be sent to clear up divisions and reorganize the administration. (D. Deeds) (1977)"
__________________________________________________________________


Did you mean Susan M. Deeds in the above quote? Can you cite the publication source?
Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[EarnieP]

Interesting source you've found there Bill, great info.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,
I take it back, that does sound like extortion and what little I have read about the Pima I doubt that they would have done it.
Joe,
That is true.

The potential for doing bad is in all of us I think and individually, some Pima may have behaved so however, the reports that I have read suggest that culturally, on a whole, such behavior would have been atypical. It was no honor to take a life for the Pima. In fact, those who did had to go thru a purification ritual lasting days. Only after completing this ritual were warriors allowed to return home. My understanding is that they were a generous people, to white settlers, the US Army, and to other displace nations (the Maricopas) looking for a place to call home. Unfortunately, they may have also been somewhat naive and overly superstitious.

Still, I would not have wanted to face them in battle.

If you can find a copy and if you are interested: THE PAPAGO INDIANS OF ARIZONA AND THEIR RELATIVES THE PIMA - Ruth Underhill, PH. D

 

[Hal Croves]

Pima Uprisings happened all through the century.

Brother Bill,
The continual abuses (physical, sexual, emotional) of a greed driven invader hopefully would inspire any people to rebellion and acts of violence.