Did Waltz really have a rich mine?

[audigger53]

Here's my thoughts on this. Waltzr, not Waltz, rode the stage and got off by Silly Mountain to go rock hunting and prospecting. His habits changes and he would work just long enough to get a grub stake and then go out again for 3-4 months. Then he caught the stage to Tucson, turned in $18,000 in gold to Wells Fargo and caught the East bound stage. He told the Stage driver that because he had let him ride on top of the stage (free), that he had found flakes and tracked it back to an outcrop that he then mined. "It's about a 1/4 mile from my camp which is by a spring with trees I planted in a 1/2 circle. About that time was the earthquake from Fort Apache to the end of the Supes. I believe that it killed the spring. Now after someone turns in $18,000 in gold, that would start a gold rush. People from Tucson would go up to Phoenix and ask for the "Dutchman with a mine". The only one there is Waltz. Did Waltz turn in any large amounts of gold? Never heard of any, Waltzr, yes. Was Waltz still sinking the low grade shaft that he buried Wiesner in ? I don't think so. There is a gold mine to the NW of Hyroglific Canyon. I believe that is the Waltzr mine. Just as the Adams Diggings were found and worked after Adams was there. So where did Waltz's gold come from? The stuff that he higraded? I don't know but it surely was from "the richest mine in the world". If he told a lie enough, even he would start to believe it. Maybe that is why his "clues" never really lead to his "mine". Go ahead and change my mind, but use facts, not stories by people selling books.
Facts: Waltz never bought a home, he did a homestead. It was made of Adobe, ie cheap.
They buried him in a paupers grave as he had no money in the bank.
Please make me change my mind about this as it would be just about criminal that so many people stent so much time and their lives looking for it.

 

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[audigger53]

Still waiting. Lets talk about it.

 

[azdave35]

Still waiting. Lets talk about it.

au:..
i know quite a few wealthy people that still live like paupers...they live in older houses..drive old cars...they dress like they bought their clothes at goodwill...some people dont like to flaunt their wealth..i'm not sure if that was the case with waltz but its something to think about

 

[Hal Croves]

Here's my thoughts on this. Waltzr, not Waltz, rode the stage and got off by Silly Mountain to go rock hunting and prospecting. His habits changes and he would work just long enough to get a grub stake and then go out again for 3-4 months. Then he caught the stage to Tucson, turned in $18,000 in gold to Wells Fargo and caught the East bound stage. He told the Stage driver that because he had let him ride on top of the stage (free), that he had found flakes and tracked it back to an outcrop that he then mined. "It's about a 1/4 mile from my camp which is by a spring with trees I planted in a 1/2 circle. About that time was the earthquake from Fort Apache to the end of the Supes. I believe that it killed the spring. Now after someone turns in $18,000 in gold, that would start a gold rush. People from Tucson would go up to Phoenix and ask for the "Dutchman with a mine". The only one there is Waltz. Did Waltz turn in any large amounts of gold? Never heard of any, Waltzr, yes. Was Waltz still sinking the low grade shaft that he buried Wiesner in ? I don't think so. There is a gold mine to the NW of Hyroglific Canyon. I believe that is the Waltzr mine. Just as the Adams Diggings were found and worked after Adams was there. So where did Waltz's gold come from? The stuff that he higraded? I don't know but it surely was from "the richest mine in the world". If he told a lie enough, even he would start to believe it. Maybe that is why his "clues" never really lead to his "mine". Go ahead and change my mind, but use facts, not stories by people selling books.
Facts: Waltz never bought a home, he did a homestead. It was made of Adobe, ie cheap.
They buried him in a paupers grave as he had no money in the bank.
Please make me change my mind about this as it would be just about criminal that so many people stent so much time and their lives looking for it.

Despite what I have been writing about, concerning the Holmes Manuscript, I do believe that Jacob Waltz located a valuable mine which had been previously discovered and developed.
Could actually be one of several waiting to be rediscovered.

Just an opinion.


Hal

 

[ecmjamsit]

What if it was a "pinch" vein. It is really rich at first, then it pinches out. The gold is gone. All mined out. There might be more close. Or it was just a fluke. Study more geology, methinks the "Lost Dutchman" is a legend. A media ploy to encourage settlement of the west.

 

[audigger53]

AzDave Let's say that was the case. Then why was so little gold found at his house? Waltzr worked his for 3-4 months and turned in $18,000. Waltz was supposed to have gone to his for years and only had how much?
Yes, he did help out Julia, or she stole it and made up the "Gift" story. I don't know. Maybe Hal could shed light on that part. Still not much gold for as rich as he told his mine was.

 

[Azquester]

Here's my thoughts on this. Waltzr, not Waltz, rode the stage and got off by Silly Mountain to go rock hunting and prospecting. His habits changes and he would work just long enough to get a grub stake and then go out again for 3-4 months. Then he caught the stage to Tucson, turned in $18,000 in gold to Wells Fargo and caught the East bound stage. He told the Stage driver that because he had let him ride on top of the stage (free), that he had found flakes and tracked it back to an outcrop that he then mined. "It's about a 1/4 mile from my camp which is by a spring with trees I planted in a 1/2 circle. About that time was the earthquake from Fort Apache to the end of the Supes. I believe that it killed the spring. Now after someone turns in $18,000 in gold, that would start a gold rush. People from Tucson would go up to Phoenix and ask for the "Dutchman with a mine". The only one there is Waltz. Did Waltz turn in any large amounts of gold? Never heard of any, Waltzr, yes. Was Waltz still sinking the low grade shaft that he buried Wiesner in ? I don't think so. There is a gold mine to the NW of Hyroglific Canyon. I believe that is the Waltzr mine. Just as the Adams Diggings were found and worked after Adams was there. So where did Waltz's gold come from? The stuff that he higraded? I don't know but it surely was from "the richest mine in the world". If he told a lie enough, even he would start to believe it. Maybe that is why his "clues" never really lead to his "mine". Go ahead and change my mind, but use facts, not stories by people selling books.
Facts: Waltz never bought a home, he did a homestead. It was made of Adobe, ie cheap.
They buried him in a paupers grave as he had no money in the bank.
Please make me change my mind about this as it would be just about criminal that so many people stent so much time and their lives looking for it.

And the question is:

Who was Roscoe G Wilson?

Scroll down to 30:20. Jacob Waltzer papers.


Roscoe G Willson Collection 1868-1976


What sort of can or container was the Waltz gold sealed in? That may answer the question of whether or not it was high graded.

 

[nobodie]

Wasn't it said that he had 2 or 3 caches hidden near the mine.

 

[Terry Soloman]

...

 

[Azquester]

Wasn't it said that he had 2 or 3 caches hidden near the mine.

Probably sealed in the same sort of leaded plugged tin can he used at his adobe house under the fireplace. Jacob buried his gold in a shallow cave across from his stolen mine so his cache could be literally anywhere in the Superstitions near a small cliff over hang, under a large over hanging rock, next to a rock wall, etc....etc...

Chances of finding it by the clues Waltz left, 1 in 50 million, chances of finding it by dumb luck, 1 in 30 million. You'd have a better chance of finding it by dowsing with divining rods given too you by the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, or SIMPLY falling into it while chasing butterflies.

Channel your true Dutchman, channel it!

 

[markmar]

Bill

Have you ever tried to follow Waltz clues ?
I believe Waltz followed the Military trail in the beginning of his researches into Superstitions . More safe because the Native Indians avoided to approach this trail . I believe Waltz used the Military trail at both entrances/exits from N - S of the Superstitions .
Keep this in your mind while follow Waltz clues .

 

[audigger53]

According to what I have read, he and Wiesner went into the Supes and sunk and shaft on a low grade deposit. Waltz went to Queen Creek trading post for more supplies. When he went back, something bothered him and he stopped and crawled up the ridge overlooking the camp/mine site. Below he could see Wiesner staked out with burning slivers stuck into him. He became so scared that he slid back down and left the horses with the supplies and ran for his life. 2 weeks later he made it back to Phoenix, almost dead from exhaustion and lack of food. He would not go back until 2 &1/2 to 3 months passed as he was scared of the Indians. When he went back he buried Wisners remains in the shaft and covered it with logs.
Now part of his description of his "mine" was that it was covered with logs. If you do find hid mine, Wisners bones will be in it. Now did he have another mine that he found? That is the question. None of the gold from his cache was "low grade". Where did the cache come from? Did he offer clues to Wisners grave? Did he use things that he saw when prospecting as "clues" to his mine? Even though they were false "clues"? Sounds more likely to me. Give out false clues to keep people away from his real mine.

 

[nobodie]

Not false clues, just mixed up clues between the mine and the caches.

 

[audigger53]

OK how good was his mind working when he was dying? His Death Bed Clues.
Did they ever say what he died from?
Could he have been confused in his mind about all of the directions and clues that he gave out?
Trying hard to be logical about this. So many "lost Mines" have already been found and not been put in the news per say.
As one person here said about Adams, "Look at where Gold was recovered" that matches the description of Adams.
Same thing for Yuma's Lost Gold. It was found and mined, but not as Yuma's gold. The Apache chieftain that showed it to him was wiped out with the entire tribe by the US Army.
I fully believe the mine that Waltzr had was been worked and still is for all I know, on the outside of the Supes between The Masacure Grounds and Hyroglific Canyon.
So what gold mine in the Supes itself has been filed on and worked, that could have been his?
With all the prospectors searching for it and other minerals since 1880, no one filed a claim on gold mines?
Not silver or copper but gold.
Before I would go looking for mines or gold stories I would try and find all the facts about it first.
Not just stories in books about treasure, but the facts that could be established.
Most of those have been embellished by the authors to sell the books. IMO

 

[BlackLine]

why he should ever tell anything about the mine location? maybe he wanted his sister is secure. if thats the only reason, why he forgot to give an adress and name to holmes/pertrasch/thomas? why did they all never search for waltz sister? if i had never found the mine with waltz directions, i would travel to germany and find his sister to get the letters he sent. i dont belive that she sent his son to az without a good reason and explanation. I summarize - he drew a map on his death bed (two times) and forgot to write the address from his sister? very spongy

 

[sdcfia]

According to what I have read, he and Wiesner went into the Supes and sunk and shaft on a low grade deposit. Waltz went to Queen Creek trading post for more supplies. When he went back, something bothered him and he stopped and crawled up the ridge overlooking the camp/mine site. Below he could see Wiesner staked out with burning slivers stuck into him. He became so scared that he slid back down and left the horses with the supplies and ran for his life. 2 weeks later he made it back to Phoenix, almost dead from exhaustion and lack of food. He would not go back until 2 &1/2 to 3 months passed as he was scared of the Indians. When he went back he buried Wisners remains in the shaft and covered it with logs.
Now part of his description of his "mine" was that it was covered with logs. If you do find hid mine, Wisners bones will be in it. Now did he have another mine that he found? That is the question. None of the gold from his cache was "low grade". Where did the cache come from? Did he offer clues to Wisners grave? Did he use things that he saw when prospecting as "clues" to his mine? Even though they were false "clues"? Sounds more likely to me. Give out false clues to keep people away from his real mine.

Why do you suppose nobody has found the so-called LDM? If there ever was such a thing, neither Waltz nor any other human would ever reveal enough information to be able to find it - never. This is the way humans are hard-wired. They'd lie to their own mother if necessary. It's reality - for Waltz, you, me and all of us.

Did Waltz have gold ore? Maybe some. Was it rich? Sure, all high-grade is rich - that's why it's kept. Where did it come from? Maybe he mined it. Maybe he found it. Maybe he stole it. Maybe he brought it to Phoenix when he moved there. What about all the smart people who have looked for the LDM the past 125 years? What about them? Maybe Waltz had the last laugh.

 

[Hal Croves]

What if it was a "pinch" vein. It is really rich at first, then it pinches out. The gold is gone. All mined out. There might be more close. Or it was just a fluke. Study more geology, methinks the "Lost Dutchman" is a legend. A media ploy to encourage settlement of the west.

A little late for western settlement but for tourism, after the turn of the century, that I could believe.
Smart.

 

[Azquester]

Bill

Have you ever tried to follow Waltz clues ?
I believe Waltz followed the Military trail in the beginning of his researches into Superstitions . More safe because the Native Indians avoided to approach this trail . I believe Waltz used the Military trail at both entrances/exits from N - S of the Superstitions .
Keep this in your mind while follow Waltz clues .

Marius, With the facts established that some key players weren't players at all, I think all clues he supposedly gave on his deathbed are subject to scrutiny, you wouldn't need much facts IMO for getting to the general area of the mine if you knew the real truth about what was said or not by Jacob. Earlier Spanish mines would've been hidden so well you couldn't find them with out finding the Map room and keystone for reading the Map. Removing the keystone takes about four or five slaves. Or, a makeshift cherry picker with tripod, made from logs.

If Jacob did hide it, it may never be found, especially, if he soaked the logs in creosote. Most Spanish or even Mexican Mines had small entrances so it would be easy too hide it in the landscape. Only a highly trained eye or a tracker would be able to find it and that time has long passed. We've only existing trails out there now and the trails of old are no longer visible today. If it was now you'd be able to see old Jacobs trail by satellite photo.

 

[Azquester]

What if it was a "pinch" vein. It is really rich at first, then it pinches out. The gold is gone. All mined out. There might be more close. Or it was just a fluke. Study more geology, methinks the "Lost Dutchman" is a legend. A media ploy to encourage settlement of the west.

The Media ploy has some truth to it, at least in Tucson. Don Page was in charge of promoting Arizona at a time when AC hadn't been invented yet and people hated the heat out here. Don, with the help of some of his friends that wrote western books and Treasure Magazines, stretched the facts in order to get anyone to resettle here with tales of lost treasures and gold mines. That doesn't mean all stories were made up for this type of state promotion though. A lot were true or as true as one can get with word of mouth mostly of older residents. Some of the most important history of Arizona is probably not written and may never be known.

 

[markmar]

Bill

The most new trails/roads out there , are on the old trails .
The clues that gave Waltz to Julia and Holmes , both routes at a specific point , intersect eachother on the Military trail . IMO , this is the crucial point which have to find to be close to the LDM .
Remember : in Julia's route , the canyon that go north , and in Holmes route , to follow the Military trail till turns south . This is the point which Julia and Holmes would been coming face to face .