milton rose

[azdave35]

this puts a new twist on the holmes dilemma

this is a quote from another site:
In the Superstition Mtn Journal Volume 2, Number 3, published July, 1982, Milton Rose wrote an article "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz" on pages 5-6. He writes:

"The men present when Jacob Waltz died were David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr. Schoulters and Carr spoke some German. They acknowledged this to Justice of the Peace M.P. Griffin on October 27, 1981, after Julia Thomas had appeared before him and swore that the three men named had stolen a bag containing $500.00 in gold from Waltz's locker under his bed."

"Griffin notified the three men to appear before him on the 30th of October. On the 29th, Julia personally notified Griffin that she had found the bag of gold behind her front gate that morning. Griffin then closed the proceedings and dismissed the case."

"The three also said that they thought the mess over the bag of gold was a misguided attempt on the part of Julia to get rid of them. Later they were told that a number of citizens had called on Julia. She got the message."

In "Rainbows End" (1940), Milton repeats some of the above story and also adds:

"My source for the above was from the two men concerned, after I found the J.P.'s record of it."

It is possible that this Justice of the Peace document still exists in Phoenix records or possibly in Milton's extensive LDM collection that he left behind.

Net-net, there were some records - at least one - indicating that Waltz left gold under his bed when he died.

 

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[sdcfia]

this puts a new twist on the holmes dilemma

this is a quote from another site:
In the Superstition Mtn Journal Volume 2, Number 3, published July, 1982, Milton Rose wrote an article "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz" on pages 5-6. He writes:

"The men present when Jacob Waltz died were David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr. Schoulters and Carr spoke some German. They acknowledged this to Justice of the Peace M.P. Griffin on October 27, 1981, after Julia Thomas had appeared before him and swore that the three men named had stolen a bag containing $500.00 in gold from Waltz's locker under his bed."

"Griffin notified the three men to appear before him on the 30th of October. On the 29th, Julia personally notified Griffin that she had found the bag of gold behind her front gate that morning. Griffin then closed the proceedings and dismissed the case."

"The three also said that they thought the mess over the bag of gold was a misguided attempt on the part of Julia to get rid of them. Later they were told that a number of citizens had called on Julia. She got the message."

In "Rainbows End" (1940), Milton repeats some of the above story and also adds:

"My source for the above was from the two men concerned, after I found the J.P.'s record of it."

It is possible that this Justice of the Peace document still exists in Phoenix records or possibly in Milton's extensive LDM collection that he left behind.

Net-net, there were some records - at least one - indicating that Waltz left gold under his bed when he died.

Interesting, azdave35. You may wish to correct the date typo - 1981 should read 1891.

Rose, while controversial in some respects of course, was an exceedingly interesting man whose sources and research are impressive. At least what little of his work that I've personally seen - one of his colleagues (a man of impeccable integrity) provided me with some of Rose's Lost Adams material that is quite intriguing. As always in the "treasure disinformation game", facts trump hearsay and hysterical rumors, and if the Griffin records could be located and verified, the Waltz saga might take a step out of the darkness and into the light. The first thing one notices in this telling is that $500 in gold (ore? coin?) is a much smaller hoard than what the popular Waltz legends describe. A nice poke for an old retired miner and modest chicken farmer, but not indicative of the richest mine in the world.

 

[Cubfan64]

I've been torn on how much stock to put in Milton Rose for quite awhile now. I started looking into the collection of information Greg Davis has on Rose a number of years ago and started getting intrigued because it seemed like there was a lot of "new" information and it at least appeared that he had done quite a bit of research and record/document searching as well as talking to many sources. It didn't take long however to start wondering at what point the "facts" he dug up were being misrepresented or enhanced by his storytelling.

I remember a few years ago reading the original manuscript for "Rainbow's End" that Greg has in his collection and trying to understand how in the world that manuscript ended up becoming the "Rainbow's End" that was eventually published and available for purchase as the two almost seemed like completely different books/stories.

Ultimately I feel like (much as it is with many LDM stories), there are grains of truth in Milton Rose's stories, but separating it from the large volume of chaff surrounding it is difficult at best.

Every time I hear some of the "facts" presented by folks like Milton Rose, Barney Barnard, Oren Arnold, etc... that are different from most of the current public LDM stories, I consider that they were closer to the source than any of us now are so they MUST have some truth to them. Then I start wondering how many of those source documents they claim existed were simply taken from the records by unscrupulous treasure hunters who may have wanted an "edge" but didn't want anyone else to ever have that access. It would have been simple to do back in the day to just fold up those documents, stuff them in a pocket and walk away with them. To say they never existed because they haven't been found today may not necessarily be true.

Sadly with each passing day it becomes harder and harder to dig back into those records and uncover the true stories many of us are interested in. Ultimately they do little to help anyone find a lost mine, but it helps narrow down who's words can/should be trusted and followed as far as clues are concerned. There's a damn few to really hang your hat on.

 

[azdave35]

Interesting, azdave35. You may wish to correct the date typo - 1981 should read 1891.

Rose, while controversial in some respects of course, was an exceedingly interesting man whose sources and research are impressive. At least what little of his work that I've personally seen - one of his colleagues (a man of impeccable integrity) provided me with some of Rose's Lost Adams material that is quite intriguing. As always in the "treasure disinformation game", facts trump hearsay and hysterical rumors, and if the Griffin records could be located and verified, the Waltz saga might take a step out of the darkness and into the light. The first thing one notices in this telling is that $500 in gold (ore? coin?) is a much smaller hoard than what the popular Waltz legends describe. A nice poke for an old retired miner and modest chicken farmer, but not indicative of the richest mine in the world.

sdcfia...years ago i read alot of rose's writings and i wasnt sure what to think about him...but many people i talked to that knew him said he was a pretty straight up guy..his family owned a local newspaper (i think it was the mesa tribune)....he was around at the onset of the ldm hysteria and he interviewed many of the key players..he was at the quarter circle u ranch when adolph ruth was there..so who knows..i know he wrote a manuscript but i havent read it..

 

[azdave35]

I've been torn on how much stock to put in Milton Rose for quite awhile now. I started looking into the collection of information Greg Davis has on Rose a number of years ago and started getting intrigued because it seemed like there was a lot of "new" information and it at least appeared that he had done quite a bit of research and record/document searching as well as talking to many sources. It didn't take long however to start wondering at what point the "facts" he dug up were being misrepresented or enhanced by his storytelling.

I remember a few years ago reading the original manuscript for "Rainbow's End" that Greg has in his collection and trying to understand how in the world that manuscript ended up becoming the "Rainbow's End" that was eventually published and available for purchase as the two almost seemed like completely different books/stories.

Ultimately I feel like (much as it is with many LDM stories), there are grains of truth in Milton Rose's stories, but separating it from the large volume of chaff surrounding it is difficult at best.

Every time I hear some of the "facts" presented by folks like Milton Rose, Barney Barnard, Oren Arnold, etc... that are different from most of the current public LDM stories, I consider that they were closer to the source than any of us now are so they MUST have some truth to them. Then I start wondering how many of those source documents they claim existed were simply taken from the records by unscrupulous treasure hunters who may have wanted an "edge" but didn't want anyone else to ever have that access. It would have been simple to do back in the day to just fold up those documents, stuff them in a pocket and walk away with them. To say they never existed because they haven't been found today may not necessarily be true.

Sadly with each passing day it becomes harder and harder to dig back into those records and uncover the true stories many of us are interested in. Ultimately they do little to help anyone find a lost mine, but it helps narrow down who's words can/should be trusted and followed as far as clues are concerned. There's a damn few to really hang your hat on.

paul..everyone i talked to said milton was fairly honest..of course he did embellish his stories but so does everyone else...he had alot of indian friends and they steered him onto a few lost mines and treasures and from what i heard he did quite well on a couple of them...he worked an old spanish mine in the estrella mountains and made out good on it.....i heard he had some brain fog in the last few years of his life so i probably wouldnt put alot of stock in his writings in that period but before that i think he was pretty honest

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul & Dave,

Many of my early sources were not fans of Milton Rose. Despite that, I have done some research on the man and have his manuscript. As you both know, I do like to study the words of the people who were closest to the events. That being said, I don't put a lot of stock in Rose's writings. That may have more to do with the feelings of my early mentors than any research results I may have garnered on my own.

History has not been kind to the people I was warned away from. That gives me some confidence in the things I was told early on. These days, along those lines, I take the words of Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin as the closest things to fact I will hear. I understand that some may disagree, but I'm pretty set in my ways.

Many of the stories that Uncle Obie told were, I believe, pretty much scrambled by his mental health. Until Aunt Olive's stroke we had her excellent memory to set him straight, and she never hesitated to do that. Many of the old timers had told their stories so long they began to believe they were factual. I place Ernie Provence in that group. On the other hand, Ernie had some really great stories.

You might want to consider what I just wrote when reading some of the old timers stories. After all, Davy Crockett kilt him a bar when he was only three!

Dave, You were not so kind towards Rose a few years ago. Did you get some new, favorable, information about him?

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Paul & Dave,

Many of my early sources were not fans of Milton Rose. Despite that, I have done some research on the man and have his manuscript. As you both know, I do like to study the words of the people who were closest to the events. That being said, I don't put a lot of stock in Rose's writings. That may have more to do with the feelings of my early mentors than any research results I may have garnered on my own.

History has not been kind to the people I was warned away from. That gives me some confidence in the things I was told early on. These days, along those lines, I take the words of Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin as the closest things to fact I will hear. I understand that some may disagree, but I'm pretty set in my ways.

Many of the stories that Uncle Obie told were, I believe, pretty much scrambled by his mental health. Until Aunt Olive's stroke we had her excellent memory to set him straight, and she never hesitated to do that. Many of the old timers had told their stories so long they began to believe they were factual. I place Ernie Provence in that group. On the other hand, Ernie had some really great stories.

You might want to consider what I just wrote when reading some of the old timers stories. After all, Davy Crockett kilt him a bar when he was only three!

Take care,

Joe

joe....it doesnt matter who you are listening to you are always going to get some b.s. along with the truth...you just have to be experienced enough to filter through the b.s. and try to extract the truth...everyone i talked to that knew rose said he would definitely embellish but most of what he said was factual..i never heard anyone call him a liar...i really do believe he found a pocket of gold in four peaks,,,,..watch the tape i sent you..he is on one of the shows talking about finding the pocket in four peaks..now him saying it was the ldm i don't believe ..but then again i havent seen what led him to the deposit...maybe i would change my mind if i had access to his notes

 

[deducer]

Ever since his story on his alleged discovery of the la purisima concepcion mine was found to have been a complete work of fiction, I have not taken any of what he says to be gospel and will not, unless independently corroborated.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen, I have read many of Rose's stories, I do not consider them "Bible" but quite entertining. I have his story on the finding of Tayopa, entertaining, but from what he said, he was 'never' at Tayopa, Nevertheless I do enjoy his stories, Basically he was a struggling author with a story to write and fudged the facts a lil bit in order to stretch out the length of the story for additionall money, but do not take his works as gospel truth..

 

[audigger53]

Many of the old timers had told their stories so long they began to believe they were factual. I place Ernie Provence in that group. On the other hand, Ernie had some really great stories.

I have often wondered if Waltz didn't fall into this group. Good reason why some (being nice) of his clues seemed to contradict.

 

[sdcfia]

Gentlemen, I have read many of Rose's stories, I do not consider them "Bible" but quite entertining. I have his story on the finding of Tayopa, entertaining, but from what he said, he was 'never' at Tayopa, Nevertheless I do enjoy his stories, Basically he was a struggling author with a story to write and fudged the facts a lil bit in order to stretch out the length of the story for additionall money, but do not take his works as gospel truth..

Good point on the magazine articles, Don Jose. By the way, Rose had an adventurous ancestor in AZ beginning in the 1860s who was directly involved in searches for a few of the (now) better-known AZ lost mine legends that surfaced during those days. I believe Milton Rose had access to proprietary information contemporary to the original events that was unavailable to others who came late to the party. This would be a nice edge to work with, as the degrees of separation were minimal. If there was any truth to a lost mine legend that might benefit a successful searcher, you can bet that by the time you are dealing with two degrees of separation, you're wasting your time (unless you merely want a good campfire yarn to argue about).

With Milton Rose - or anyone else who may be privy to good information - don't throw out the baby with the bath water. He wrote about stuff he knew about, but I expect that he didn't give away the best information just for the sake of a writer's fee. As far as "gospel" goes, why would you expect anyone to reveal it to you, me or anyone else?

 

[azdave35]

Ever since his story on his alleged discovery of the la purisima concepcion mine was found to have been a complete work of fiction, I have not taken any of what he says to be gospel and will not, unless independently corroborated.

deducer...from what i gather from talking to people that knew rose ..he would definitely stretch the truth but he wasn't just a bold faced liar...the writings of his adventures were all based on some truth..he wasn't just a writer..he was a doer...when i first read his articles 30 some years ago i thought he was all fiction but in the past ten years i met people that knew him and now i'm not so sure...whether he found the pure concepcion or tayopa i cant say but he did hit a pocket in four peaks and he did work the mine in the estrella mountains...the old stone cabin he talked about in the article is still standing in the estrella's...he described the area quite well so no doubt he had at least been there...the reason i copied and pasted the above article about rose and the deathbed candlebox is to see if anyone had done any research on it and could confirm anything...i think it was roger from texas that originally posted the above info

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sdc, you wrote --- why would you expect anyone to reveal it to you, me or anyone else?


Unless they had already tried and had given up. That was the case for the map which turned out to be the depository of Tayopa, My son accidentally gave me the clue with which I located it precisely, but still havented figured how to access it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Another writer in Rose's catagory was Byrd, I also enjoyed his articles. He wasn't at Tayopa either.

 

[hooch]

deducer...from what i gather from talking to people that knew rose ..he would definitely stretch the truth but he wasn't just a bold faced liar...the writings of his adventures were all based on some truth..he wasn't just a writer..he was a doer...when i first read his articles 30 some years ago i thought he was all fiction but in the past ten years i met people that knew him and now i'm not so sure...whether he found the pure concepcion or tayopa i cant say but he did hit a pocket in four peaks and he did work the mine in the estrella mountains...the old stone cabin he talked about in the article is still standing in the estrella's...he described the area quite well so no doubt he had at least been there...the reason i copied and pasted the above article about rose and the deathbed candlebox is to see if anyone had done any research on it and could confirm anything...i think it was roger from texas that originally posted the above info

I used to think Milton was a blow hard story teller myself, the stories he wrote were always so BS filled I never believed he had been anywhere he claimed. Found some evidence of him in the Estrella mine, that kinda blew me away

 

[azdave35]

I used to think Milton was a blow hard story teller myself, the stories he wrote were always so BS filled I never believed he had been anywhere he claimed. Found some evidence of him in the Estrella mine, that kinda blew me away

my thoughts exactly..

 

[hooch]

Yea, never ever believed a word he wrote ever. Found "MRose" burnt stick etched in one of the drift tunnels lol

 

[azdave35]

Yea, never ever believed a word he wrote ever. Found "MRose" burnt stick etched in one of the drift tunnels lol

rose talked about a much better mine out in the flats south of the mountain...i wonder if it is on the res or federal land

 

[hooch]

It was res, from what I've been told and seen, it was on the very sound end between 7 mile and the estrellas