Is my mine the LDM?

[audigger53]

One story that Jim told me, that isn't in the book, but is still good.

Jim and one of his ex partners were camped out in the middle of nowhere, surviving on coffee and rabbits. There are only so manny ways to cook a rabbit.
Jim's partner was geared up with a Ruger 10/22with two 30 shot banana clips taped together for quick change.

Jim packed a 45, for larger threats.

Jim took off for an early walk looking for shadow signs while dreaming of squirrel bacon and roadrunner eggs when he got back to camp. He wasn't paying attention and got his wake up call from a bear going away from camp on the trail.
Jim saw him in time to shoot a large rock next to the bear, to scare him off of the trail...

It didn't work as planned. He turned and ran over a small hill leading back to camp. Jim started chasing him, but the bear was over the hill and headed for camp... Jim heard the first 30 shots and then the other 30 shots as he cleared the hill and ran into camp.

His partner was standing with the bears nose on his boots and when Jim got there, his partner had the rifle pointed at the lifeless bear, still pulling the trigger as if the gun would still fire.

Jim slowly removed the rifle from his partner and told him he had killed it and that he tried to scare it away and it headed straight at the camp. That too failed to calm him. He started cussing at Jim for about 20 minutes before he just ran out of words.

Jim was relieved that it was over and said " at least we don't have to eat any more rabbit for a while.

That started the cussing all over again.

Jim was sure that he was served each and every one of the 60 slugs.

Reminds me of when I was going out jack rabbit hunting outside of Florence Az when I was 18.
Had my brothers .22 Remington pump with 22 .22 shorts in the tube. Was walking down this little cattle trail with brush to the left and short grass to the right of me, when a rattle snake sounded off to my left in the brush next to me. I went air borne to the right and when I landed I was still trying to shoot, but the gun was empty. I picked up 4 rounds that hadn't been fired, but got pumped out. Reloaded and walked wide around the area of the brush where the snake had sounded off. Don't know if I killed the snake or scared it as much as he scared me. LOL In the time I was airborne I had emptied the rifle of 22 rounds, and I know 4 of them were not fired. Who says a pump can't fire as fast as a simi auto?

 

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[sgtfda]

BlackLine. I only know a few Dutchunters or Stoners that are experienced prospectors. Roy, Dave and Jack are good examples. Most know very little or nothing about it. You are asking for someone to look at your mine and ore. Many would not have a clue. When I arrive in Arizona in 2010 I was in that group. I joined the Gold Prospectors Association of Phoenix. On outings I watched for successful prospectors. I asked them and they showed the way. I still don't know everything but have had success. I still have some work to do on hard rock ore. Though I'm fortunate to have several mining geologists as friends. I always asked Dutchunters how they expected to find the LDM if they knew nothing about prospecting. Travis T the original Stoner was in that group. I'm sure Garman showed him a few tricks. I found the shack remains recently where Travis stayed while searching with his map. I found some placer gold nearby. I've seen no evidence Travis returned home with placer gold. Though he was looking for a treasure room not placer. I think that was a mistake. I personally believe his map led to the old Mexican mines in the area.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Au that happens many time in a was, battle. Why they put a lock up on the old Springfield bolt action. The Garand had no problem that way, you had to eject the entire clip.

 

[BlackLine]

sargent frank donelly augustine... believe me... just take a look on that what i saw. if you then have any doubt let me know. i think it ist 92 % the ldm. if i think it was the ldm i wouldnt ask... some clues dont match... but not all clues are right. i personally think the pic id shown of the "indian treasure" is the rock that dick and all the other is were looking for... you cant see it from the other side... the perspective is the clue. i will be back in az... be at my side... the money play no roll. you can have everything -5% i only want to find it. every evening i fall in sleep with it every morning i wake up with it.
ps: i didnt expect the warm words. ty for all of your response.

 

[Loke]

Blackline,
Since it (the LDM) has not been found (officially), and as several have pointed out - your opinions are as valid as anybody else.
You have presented very good evidence and logic for your case - I can only hope you are successful! It would be nice to finally lay it to rest.

 

[sgtfda]

sargent frank donelly augustine... believe me... just take a look on that what i saw. if you then have any doubt let me know. i think it ist 92 % the ldm. if i think it was the ldm i wouldnt ask... some clues dont match... but not all clues are right. i personally think the pic id shown of the "indian treasure" is the rock that dick and all the other is were looking for... you cant see it from the other side... the perspective is the clue. i will be back in az... be at my side... the money play no roll. you can have everything -5% i only want to find it. every evening i fall in sleep with it every morning i wake up with it.
ps: i didnt expect the warm words. ty for all of your response.

My middle name is not Donelly. That's my daughters married name. Thank you but I have no interest in the LDM. I'm busy prospecting the Dutchmans placer gold. That I know exists. It's not good to get obsessed with these things. I'm not saying that in a bad way. Too bad you can't attend the gathering at Dons camp. Plenty of Dutchhunters there.

 

[Oroblanco]

thats the only thing that matters for me. f o the gold... its a great feeling to stay there and find history.

Thank you for your honesty Blackline. I fear that you are setting a goal for yourself that is nearly impossible, for how can it be proved beyond reasonable doubt that any mine is THE lost Dutchman's gold mine? This has been a hot topic of debate here and on other forums, the only somewhat scientific method that I can think of is a comparison of an ore sample with the existing known specimens, and we have plenty of people here that deny that even those specimens mean anything. Plus there is strong reason to believe that several different lost mine stories have gotten mixed together, making an impossible tale.

For instance, look at the list of similarities between the Ludy/Peralta lost SILVER mine, which had pockets of rich gold in it, to the clues we often find associated with Waltz;
The mine had a shaft with a funnel shaped opening, and a tunnel under it;
The two partners were ex Civil War soldiers, and traveled to Mexico where they met Peralta and worked for him, ending up in possession of the mine;
one of the two men (Ludy) was mortally wounded by an Indian attack, but managed to escape to tell the tale, ending up in virtually the same place as the Weiser story;

we could go on with the odd parallels (red flags) but there are others involved too; just look at the ore description for some of the clues, Apache Jack's lost gold "mine" had black quartz with spots of gold "like stars in the night sky" and Waggoner's gold is a rose quartz, yet Waltz's gold is in a vein of white quartz. It is possible, even probable, that other lost mines have also gotten mixed up with the LDM too, like the lost Dr Thorn(e) gold PLACER, which over time and re-telling morphed into a gold lode, or Joe Deering's lost mine which had ore that must have not appeared to be gold because he took it to Mason at Silver King to get an opinion as to whether it was worth anything or not. Just one look at the famous matchbox made from gold ore that is supposed to have come from Waltz and you should not need to get an expert to tell you that it is valuable, so the Deering mine ore must be different from Waltz's ore as well.

Trying to convince a group of treasure hunters that you found the lost Dutchman mine seems like a really difficult problem because everyone has a different idea about what proves the case, many trust in various clues or sets of clues, (like the so-called German clues as an example) or in treasure maps or stone maps. Not everyone can be right. In the end the best case will be if you convince yourself, 99 to 100%, for it is not going to be possible to convince everyone that you found it.

Remember, this mine is supposed to have VERY rich ore, not just a few specks that will pan out of a crushed sample. Statements attributed to Waltz suggest that the mine is not worked very deeply, yet has a good vein of ore exposed to see, hence the boast about enough gold remaining to "make millionaires of twenty men" back when the price of gold was set at $20.67 per ounce. That would translate to his estimating that a million ounces of gold remained in the mine.

I wish you good luck and good hunting Blackline, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. But I also hope that you will reconsider the value of the gold itself, for many a rich mine has been found by a prospector whom was out hunting for a famous or not famous lost mine, failed to find "the" lost mine he was after but struck it rich in gold or silver anyway. Fame is a fleeting thing, gold lasts forever.

Thank you for the kind words Sarge amigo - I could say the same about you and you are right, only a handful of Dutch hunters actually are prospectors, and far too many really have no idea what they are looking for, putting their trust in clues and maps etc when the geology alone will never lie. A guy could literally stand right on the mine and not know it if he does not learn something about gold and minerals, prospecting and mining.

Oroblanco

 

[audigger53]

Blackline: I only want to find it. every evening i fall in sleep with it every morning i wake up with it.

I understand fully what you are getting at. I have one or 2 that I just have to go back for. Wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have a sometimes active photographic memory. I can still see the place in my mind that I should have gone to and didn't at the time, was a little sick at the time and walked away. Have tried to get back there more than once, and either go to high or to low to hit it on a mountain slope.

 

[Hal Croves]

Thank you for your honesty Blackline. I fear that you are setting a goal for yourself that is nearly impossible, for how can it be proved beyond reasonable doubt that any mine is THE lost Dutchman's gold mine? This has been a hot topic of debate here and on other forums, the only somewhat scientific method that I can think of is a comparison of an ore sample with the existing known specimens, and we have plenty of people here that deny that even those specimens mean anything. Plus there is strong reason to believe that several different lost mine stories have gotten mixed together, making an impossible tale.

For instance, look at the list of similarities between the Ludy/Peralta lost SILVER mine, which had pockets of rich gold in it, to the clues we often find associated with Waltz;
The mine had a shaft with a funnel shaped opening, and a tunnel under it;
The two partners were ex Civil War soldiers, and traveled to Mexico where they met Peralta and worked for him, ending up in possession of the mine;
one of the two men (Ludy) was mortally wounded by an Indian attack, but managed to escape to tell the tale, ending up in virtually the same place as the Weiser story;

we could go on with the odd parallels (red flags) but there are others involved too; just look at the ore description for some of the clues, Apache Jack's lost gold "mine" had black quartz with spots of gold "like stars in the night sky" and Waggoner's gold is a rose quartz, yet Waltz's gold is in a vein of white quartz. It is possible, even probable, that other lost mines have also gotten mixed up with the LDM too, like the lost Dr Thorn(e) gold PLACER, which over time and re-telling morphed into a gold lode, or Joe Deering's lost mine which had ore that must have not appeared to be gold because he took it to Mason at Silver King to get an opinion as to whether it was worth anything or not. Just one look at the famous matchbox made from gold ore that is supposed to have come from Waltz and you should not need to get an expert to tell you that it is valuable, so the Deering mine ore must be different from Waltz's ore as well.

Trying to convince a group of treasure hunters that you found the lost Dutchman mine seems like a really difficult problem because everyone has a different idea about what proves the case, many trust in various clues or sets of clues, (like the so-called German clues as an example) or in treasure maps or stone maps. Not everyone can be right. In the end the best case will be if you convince yourself, 99 to 100%, for it is not going to be possible to convince everyone that you found it.

Remember, this mine is supposed to have VERY rich ore, not just a few specks that will pan out of a crushed sample. Statements attributed to Waltz suggest that the mine is not worked very deeply, yet has a good vein of ore exposed to see, hence the boast about enough gold remaining to "make millionaires of twenty men" back when the price of gold was set at $20.67 per ounce. That would translate to his estimating that a million ounces of gold remained in the mine.

I wish you good luck and good hunting Blackline, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. But I also hope that you will reconsider the value of the gold itself, for many a rich mine has been found by a prospector whom was out hunting for a famous or not famous lost mine, failed to find "the" lost mine he was after but struck it rich in gold or silver anyway. Fame is a fleeting thing, gold lasts forever.

Thank you for the kind words Sarge amigo - I could say the same about you and you are right, only a handful of Dutch hunters actually are prospectors, and far too many really have no idea what they are looking for, putting their trust in clues and maps etc when the geology alone will never lie. A guy could literally stand right on the mine and not know it if he does not learn something about gold and minerals, prospecting and mining.

Oroblanco

Brilliant post.

 

[EarnieP]

"... only a handful of Dutch hunters actually are prospectors, and far too many really have no idea what they are looking for, putting their trust in clues and maps etc when the geology alone will never lie. A guy could literally stand right on the mine and not know it if he does not learn something about gold and minerals, prospecting and mining."
--------------------------------------------------

Hey wait a minute! Didn't the Dutchman himself say something like "No miner/prospector will ever find my gold mine." (because it's located in a place they would never look.)? Or something similar, seems I read that clue somewhere.

Remember;

Just inside the LDM mine, about ten feet back from the entrance, is a small ledge half way up on the right hand rib.
Sitting on that ridge rests a well preserved photo album wrapped in ancient wax paper and placed carefully within an air tight tupperware container. Inside that album is the collection of photographs of every lucky soul who has ever found their way to the Dutchman's mine.

So far, in over a hundred years of searching, there are exactly as many pictures of unknowledgeable tourists as there are experienced prospectors. And by the way, precisely the same number of those immensely knowledgeable authors of Lost Dutchman Mine books; ZERO!

 

[azdave35]

"... only a handful of Dutch hunters actually are prospectors, and far too many really have no idea what they are looking for, putting their trust in clues and maps etc when the geology alone will never lie. A guy could literally stand right on the mine and not know it if he does not learn something about gold and minerals, prospecting and mining."
--------------------------------------------------

Hey wait a minute! Didn't the Dutchman himself say something like "No miner/prospector will ever find my gold mine." (because it's located in a place they would never look.)? Or something similar, seems I read that clue somewhere.

Remember;

Just inside the LDM mine, about ten feet back from the entrance, is a small ledge half way up on the right hand rib.
Sitting on that ridge rests a well preserved photo album wrapped in ancient wax paper and placed carefully within an air tight tupperware container. Inside that album is the collection of photographs of every lucky soul who has ever found their way to the Dutchman's mine.

So far, in over a hundred years of searching, there are exactly as many pictures of unknowledgeable tourists as there are experienced prospectors. And by the way, precisely the same number of those immensely knowledgeable authors of Lost Dutchman Mine books; ZERO!

earnie..what it boils down to is we really have no idea what the dutchman said

 

[somehiker]

" Hey wait a minute! Didn't the Dutchman himself say something like "No miner/prospector will ever find my gold mine." (because it's located in a place they would never look.)? Or something similar, seems I read that clue somewhere. "

dave:

Seems like the sorta thing an experienced prospector might say, don't it ?
An opinion shared by many geologists and prospectors, even today, when discussing the Superstitions.
He and his partners, along with many others had previously found gold in other areas of Arizona....the Bradshaws etc...by prospecting, but the stories I have read and consider credible by scenario have Waltz discovering the mine, not by prospecting, but by accidental circumstances. Same goes for the original Goldfield claim as I recall, and even the manner in which the re-opened "pit mine" was located. Now, I'm not saying traditional prospecting methods will not lead someone to gold within the range, and probably has led to some minor amounts for a few persistent and lucky individuals. But when it comes to elimination of clues, this is one that should be "saved".

 

[azdave35]

" Hey wait a minute! Didn't the Dutchman himself say something like "No miner/prospector will ever find my gold mine." (because it's located in a place they would never look.)? Or something similar, seems I read that clue somewhere. "

dave:

Seems like the sorta thing an experienced prospector might say, don't it ?
An opinion shared by many geologists and prospectors, even today, when discussing the Superstitions.
He and his partners, along with many others had previously found gold in other areas of Arizona....the Bradshaws etc...by prospecting, but the stories I have read and consider credible by scenario have Waltz discovering the mine, not by prospecting, but by accidental circumstances. Same goes for the original Goldfield claim as I recall, and even the manner in which the re-opened "pit mine" was located. Now, I'm not saying traditional prospecting methods will not lead someone to gold within the range, and probably has led to some minor amounts for a few persistent and lucky individuals. But when it comes to elimination of clues, this is one that should be "saved".

sh....truth be told most of the bigger mines located in the 1800's weren't found by prospecting...someone just stumbled onto them...prime example would be the vulture mine.....most of these mines were so rich on the surface that a blithering idiot could have discovered them

 

[somehiker]

Likely the case for many of the world's bonanza gold rushes I suspect. Gold being for most non-geologists, the easiest to recognize and identify in the field.
Given the right area, metal detecting and panning,drywashing or sluicing seems to be the easiest way for anyone to find gold if it's been spread out by erosion over the millions of years that it takes to wear down the surrounding terrain. But the LDM legend IMO, is not based on nuggets or dust so much as very rich ore from a motherload in a hard rock mine.....somewhere out there

 

[EarnieP]

If so many hunters discount the 'clues' possibly left by the Dutchman and believe maps to his mine are fictitious, then why don't more people give credence to the Goldfield mines as a possible Lost Dutchman location?

Don't know how accurate it is, but here's a good write up about the Goldfield area's mining activity;

History of Goldfield Minig District

What easily accessible rich mines those were, compared to the other side of the Superstition. And so close to old Phoenix.
Thank goodness for the earlier Spanish miners who left their old workings to mark the way, and to mother nature for washing away the soil and exposing that rich gold find!

Somewhere out there, there must be other Goldfields just waiting to be found...

 

[azdave35]

If so many hunters discount the 'clues' possibly left by the Dutchman and believe maps to his mine are fictitious, then why don't more people give credence to the Goldfield mines as a possible Lost Dutchman location?

Don't know how accurate it is, but here's a good write up about the Goldfield area's mining activity;

History of Goldfield Minig District

What easily accessible rich mines those were, compared to the other side of the Superstition. And so close to old Phoenix.
Thank goodness for the earlier Spanish miners who left their old workings to mark the way, and to mother nature for washing away the soil and exposing that rich gold find!

Somewhere out there, there must be other Goldfields just waiting to be found...

earnie: .there are alot of very knowledgeable people that do think the ldm is one of the goldfield mines...and most of them think it was the bulldog mine..if the drunken fools hadn't filled it in with a bulldozer 20 years ago we might be able to prove it one way or another...i've seen the mine and the ore before the mine was filled in...it was definitely on a par with the ldm ore..if you look at the credits in the article you linked you will see john wilburn...he firmly believed the bulldog was the ldm and he was no idiot..he was (is) a self taught geologist and mining engineer..he found most of the richer veins and deposits in the goldfield area that were worked in the last 30 years....there is still alot of good gold in the goldfield district but it is all private owned land so we are not allowed on it,,,also most of the deposits are on the surface or close to the surface

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Tupperware ??

 

[TallTx]

See, this is the kind of information we need.
For my future trip plans to search for DLM, I would have not thought to bring a poloroid camera so I too could add my photo to the album.

 

[Carl995]

earnie..what it boils down to is we really have no idea what the dutchman said

Dave, have I showed you this article yet? Did you make anything out of it?
a map on cloth/shirt.

View attachment 1360579

 

[azdave35]

Dave, have I showed you this article yet? Did you make anything out of it?
a map on cloth/shirt.

View attachment 1360579

no carrol....i have never seen this..from dad?