Father C. Polzer and the Tumlinson Stones

[somehiker]

I'm still looking for references to Dr. Polzer's reflections on the stone maps.
Anyone have anything....especially anything written on the topic by Fr. Polzer himself

 

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[deducer]

Polzer's statements (as far as his analysis regarding the Stone Maps) is reproduced in Robert Sikorsky's Quest for the Dutchmans Gold.

Kollenborn recounts here that he was informed by Polzer that "personally no amount of research can convince him the stone maps were authentic."

From Gene Botts:

The stones have been examined by a number of experts in various related fields over the years, but the most careful and pains-taking examination was by Father Charles Polzer, a Jesuit priest and a well-known ethnohistorian associated with the Southwestern Mission Research Center at the Arizona State Museum. Father Polzer’s work is highly regarded, and he can easily be described as eminent in his field. He reportedly laughed when he was told that the drawings were purported to be more than a hundred years old.

Upon close examination, Father Polzer found that the surface of the stones had been milled with modern machinery before the drawings were inscribed thereon. And he went on to say, "...the drawings were cut into the stones with modern tools. The language and lettering is modern, if somewhat illiterate Spanish, clearly not colonial Spanish. The heart shape drawn on stone #3 is strictly of Northern European or Anglo character; Spaniards never depicted the idea of a heart with this kind of geometry." He went on at length describing more discrepancies, and in the end he concluded that, "...the stone carvings are a hoax of relatively recent origin."

I am willing to bet you that ASM will have Polzer's full report on his analysis of the Stone Maps. They have his books, manuscripts, et al. in their collections.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Father Po;zer and I were friends, but we limited our discussions to Tayopa, which he denied , however i finallly found it. So ------------

 

[wrmickel1]

Polzer's statements (as far as his analysis regarding the Stone Maps) is reproduced in Robert Sikorsky's Quest for the Dutchmans Gold.

Kollenborn recounts here that he was informed by Polzer that "personally no amount of research can convince him the stone maps were authentic."

From Gene Botts:



I am willing to bet you that ASM will have Polzer's full report on his analysis of the Stone Maps. They have his books, manuscripts, et al. in their collections.

Somehiker

here in Polzer's own words gives you your first clue he knows nothing about the stone maps or Jesuits, read it carefully
he clearly leans it to Spanish. Kino was a Italian Jesuit! Now that tells me by leaning to only Spanish he had no Idea
that the Jesuits were from many countries! End of Polzer

no bearing on the facts. Arm chair Historian

Wrmickel1

 

[somehiker]

Polzer's statements (as far as his analysis regarding the Stone Maps) is reproduced in Robert Sikorsky's Quest for the Dutchmans Gold.

Kollenborn recounts here that he was informed by Polzer that "personally no amount of research can convince him the stone maps were authentic."

From Gene Botts:



I am willing to bet you that ASM will have Polzer's full report on his analysis of the Stone Maps. They have his books, manuscripts, et al. in their collections.

Thanks. I have read Botts' "quote" of Polzer's supposed opinions before, and others who have subsequently referenced Fr. Polzer's "analysis" in these discussions appear to have been simply repeating what they had also seen in Botts' article, rather than anything shared by the Father himself. Both they and Botts, also seem to have added what was said in the DH magazine article by the folks at DA Inc. to their claims that Polzer made some kind of report. With the Jesuits having used identical heart symbology in both very common trade rings and in artwork found within their own publications dating back to the 1600's, I can't see him making such an observation in any kind of "report". Since I have made this same request on a couple of occasions prior to this thread, with nothing presented so far by those who I'm sure have "been there and done that" in their quest to prove the stones as fake, I doubt that such a document exists.

 

[somehiker]

Father Po;zer and I were friends, but we limited our discussions to Tayopa, which he denied , however i finallly found it. So ------------

Then, as a friend, did the Father also deny the existence of the Mission at "Tayopa" during these discussions.
I would think that he and his fellow Jesuit companions would have known exactly where that was located.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

I believe that kino was Spanish, and Polzer was trying to have him Canonized. Polzer was well aware of the mixture of the jesuits .Don't sell him short.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Some hiker, no they didn't but they knew that it existed since they worked it., It was closed due to the Indian general uprisng in the 1530's then when they returned a few years later they couldn't find it, although they did mine in the area, it s a fairly rugged zone some 5 miles by 3, A lot of coutry to look for a mine portal a the base of a cliff covered by fall off and many huricane runoffs coupled with deliberate concealment.. The huricanes caused terrific erosion. It was quite a challenge for me. Being in the bottom of a barrancaa with heavy runoff there was no dump visiible. I could never have found the portal buried under the ruble without modern abilities,

Polzer flatly denied it to keep up the illusion that the jsuits never were involved in mining in Mexico.

 

[sdcfia]

Then, as a friend, did the Father also deny the existence of the Mission at "Tayopa" during these discussions.
I would think that he and his fellow Jesuit companions would have known exactly where that was located.

That's the nasty weak link in the "lost rich Jesuit mines" argument. The smartest guys in the room somehow lost the richest mines in the world? There are lots of "logical" explanations to explain it, but they seem to be just chum for the hungry crowd.

 

[somehiker]

That's the nasty weak link in the "lost rich Jesuit mines" argument. The smartest guys in the room somehow lost the richest mines in the world? There are lots of "logical" explanations to explain it, but they seem to be just chum for the hungry crowd.

Agreed. And although I could understand their own mines not being mapped or recorded in conventional fashion for various reasons, their missions definitely were.

 

[wrmickel1]

I believe that kino was Spanish, and Polzer was trying to have him Canonized. Polzer was well aware of the mixture of the jesuits .Don't sell him short.

I'm not to sure on that, I'm no expert by any means but I believe there are four different nationalities that had a hand in the making of the Stone Maps, Spanish, Italian,German and English! From depictions to letter shapes clearly shows others at play, Now the good father Polzer had one thing right, a lot of the spelling and depiction don't seem to be of Spanish origin. That is True! Father Polzer came after the link between the old and the new was broken! So I doubt he new very little of the Old!

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

Agreed. And although I could understand their own mines not being mapped or recorded in conventional fashion for various reasons, their missions definitely were.

understandable Somehiker the mission's were accepted by the King! But the Catholics new with out the gold they have no power for long duration
Many sects died along the way but the Catholics rose to what you have today.

Wrmickel1

 

[somehiker]

Kino was Italian...

 

[Real of Tayopa]

hiker, Wrmickle, I have been wrong more times than right on the search for Tayopa, etc, I could be wrong on Kino also. Spain gave Polzer some Royal recognition for his work for the Jesuits, some of it Involved Kino, He was a sort of unoficial (?) pro propagandist for the Society., as such, he tended to white wash the Jesuits.

 

[Hal Croves]

hiker, Wrmickle, I have been wrong more times than right on the search for Tayopa, etc, I could be wrong on Kino also. Spain gave Polzer some Royal recognition for his work for the Jesuits, some of it Involved Kino, He was a sort of unoficial (?) pro propagandist for the Society., as such, he tended to white wash the Jesuits.

Yikes.

Are you saying that Polzer intentionally deceived people?

 

[cactusjumper]

Father Polzer was a respected historian. I trust his integrity, until I see credible evidence that he did not write the truth. I have talked to a number of people who worked with him.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Father Polzer was a respected historian. I trust his integrity, until I see credible evidence that he did not write the truth. I have talked to a number of people who worked with him.

Joe Ribaudo

But did he actually write anything about the stones

 

[wrmickel1]

Father Polzer was a respected historian. I trust his integrity, until I see credible evidence that he did not write the truth. I have talked to a number of people who worked with him.



Joe Ribaudo

Joe, there's plenty of evidence you just look in the wrong place! To much book worming!

Many native tribes have claimed the Jesuits mined gold silver gems ect. Stories of buried gold.
I don't think they all made it up! It's been past down for generations.

Yet Polzer denied this very thing. Uhh

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, there's plenty of evidence you just look in the wrong place! To much book worming!

Many native tribes have claimed the Jesuits mined gold silver gems ect. Stories of buried gold.
I don't think they all made it up! It's been past down for generations.

Yet Polzer denied this very thing. Uhh

Wrmickel1

WRM,

Even if that's true, it doesn't impeach Father Polzer's opinion. Can you name the "many" tribes? Any sources to back that claim up?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe, Fr Po;zer\s official or unofficial status was to sanitize JESUIT ACTIVIES IN 'NORTH AMERICA',