The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK,I equate the Apache with the 'terrorist' of today, they obviously believe in thier philosophy to the point that they are willing to commit suicide in it's name, Why can't the military get rid of them? Incidentally most of their TRIBE live peacefully. as did the Apache.

How are the Apache of today faring in your country ?

Don,



You call the Apaches the 'terrorists' of their day...I am sure you've got your reason(s), but I do not think I can follow that process. Would you have called the Irish collecting money in New York for the IRA back for the 'freedom fighters' in the old country, terrorists?
After all, they wanted to buy weapons to kill English people in England for 'occupying their country'. Or maybe the British government was guilty of being the 'terrorists'?
I think your comparison is slightly exaggerated...

Your final sentence doesn't make sense in the extreme. However I am sure you know this and had a response ready and I think I can guess it..., but again that is a silly comparison to make.

My opinion only.


IPUK

 

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[azdave35]

Don,



You call the Apaches the 'terrorists' of their day...I am sure you've got your reason(s), but I do not think I can follow that process. Would you have called the Irish collecting money in New York for the IRA back for the 'freedom fighters' in the old country, terrorists?
After all, they wanted to buy weapons to kill English people in England for 'occupying their country'. Or maybe the British government was guilty of being the 'terrorists'?
I think your comparison is slightly exaggerated...

Your final sentence doesn't make sense in the extreme. However I am sure you know this and had a response ready and I think I can guess it..., but again that is a silly comparison to make.

My opinion only.


IPUK

nobody blames freedom fighters for making war against the govt. for stealing their land and destroying their way of life..but when they start harassing innocent
citizens it becomes terrorism....scalping...burning people alive...peeling their skin off their bodies..are all atrocities against mankind and any sympathy people felt for the apache goes out the window

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Not so IPUK, the apache minority was involved in a terrorist campaign as our present Taliban are.. They both have the major part of treir population living peacefully. Yep, the OIRISH were crazy also. and so it has been since Cain and Able.

Incidentally a friend of mine "Pat" was a corriur forthe IRA, until he was shot in the foot, then he decided it wasn't any more fun, so he went to America, where the British intelligence made sure that he could only recieve janitorial positions, He is now quite old but has survived the IRA wars with many a story to tell of the Black and Tans. The Britsh \intellience still monitor him

The Apache minority, the terrorists of their day, were basically the ones that did not want to work so they enbarked upon a campaign of robbery and terrorism upon their neighbors . He almost was in band of 40 or less, except for his excursions into Mexico,

Joe was right, they would raid in Arizona, then retreat into the vastness of the the mexican sierras where horses were vrtually useless except to follow established trais Those are ROUGH, DEEP mountains why the Barranca de Cobre, del Rio Mayo are considerede an the worlds deepest and roughest. I know them since I explored them on mule and afoot. Some times not meeting another traveler in a week or two

lIt has only been recentally that they opened a road across rhe sierra. from Hermosillo -- Chihuahua.

Here is a typical cross section of that country, how ' n 'ell do you corner a handfull of Apache in this type of country.
A country almosts as large as Blighty Land.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

nobody blames freedom fighters for making war against the govt. for stealing their land and destroying their way of life..but when they start harassing innocent
citizens it becomes terrorism....scalping...burning people alive...peeling their skin off their bodies..are all atrocities against mankind and any sympathy people felt for the apache goes out the window

Like I've said, hideous atrocities on both sides...

It might sound controversial, but the Apache felt more sinned against than being the sinners...


IPUK

 

[azdave35]

Like I've said, hideous atrocities on both sides...

It might sound controversial, but the Apache felt more sinned against than being the sinners...


IPUK

you talk like you know how the indians felt?...are you part indian?

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Not so IPUK, the apache minority was involved in a terrorist campaign as our present Taliban are.. They both have the major part of treir population living peacefully. Yep, the OIRISH were crazy also. and so it has been since Cain and Able.

Incidentally a friend of mine "Pat" was a corriur forthe IRA, until he was shot in the foot, then he decided it wasn't any more fun, so he went to America, where the British intelligence made sure that he could only recieve janitorial positions, He is now quite old but has survived the IRA wars with many a story to tell of the Black and Tans. The Britsh \intellience still monitor him

The Apache minority, the terrorists of their day, were basically the ones that did not want to work so they enbarked upon a campaign of robbery and terrorism upon their neighbors . He almost was in band of 40 or less, except for his excursions into Mexico,

Joe was right, they would raid in Arizona, then retreat into the vastness of the the mexican sierras where horses were vrtually useless except to follow established trais Those are ROUGH, DEEP mountains why the Barranca de Cobre, del Rio Mayo are considerede an the worlds deepest and roughest. I know them since I explored them on mule and afoot. Some times not meeting another traveler in a week or two

lIt has only been recentally that they opened a road across rhe sierra. from Hermosillo -- Chihuahua.

Here is a typical cross section of that country, how ' n 'ell do you corner a handfull of Apache in this type of country.
A country almosts as large as Blighty Land.

View attachment 1372881

View attachment 1372887

Don,

The bands were in the hundreds during their 'glory' days, not 40 or less as you suggest. They only started using the Sierra Madres as their main base out of necessity in the 1880s when it was too hot for them on the other side of the border. But they still crossed it at will. Cochise's warriors were nearly always to be found in Arizona. Victorio's, Loco's and Nana's band were mainly in New Mexico.

You've posted that picture before and I have a decent enough idea of what the Madres are like.

How do you explain, that when Cochise made his peace with General Howard, for a period of four years until his death and the closure of the Chiricahua reservation, those years were the most peaceful and productive for both sides and this is from army officers and civil authorities...?

When the Chihenne were allowed to settle at Ojo Caliente in New Mexico, all could come and go freely in that part of the country without fear...?

The rough mountains you mention, well the Chiricahua were the masters of all they purveyed there..., not my words but those of historians, contemporary travellers and those sent to try and subdue them...

Maybe if you opened up what you claim is Tayopa, then you'd have the last laugh on the 'terrorists', as you'd get to claim all that precious metal that is supposedly stored there and the Apache tried to conceal from whitey and the hombres....


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

you talk like you know how the indians felt?...are you part indian?

Would that really make a difference for you....?

Do books, history, study, evidence, research and knowledge count for anything...?




IPUK

 

[azdave35]

Would that really make a difference for you....?

Do books, history, study, evidence, research and knowledge count for anything...?




IPUK

yes it does make a difference..i am part indian and have never heard any of my relatives carrying on about things that happened 130 years ago...books are fine if you are bored and want something to do..but if you want to know what really happened read some of the diaries of people crossing arizona in the 1800's

 

[Interested Party in UK]

yes it does make a difference..i am part indian and have never heard any of my relatives carrying on about things that happened 130 years ago...books are fine if you are bored and want something to do..but if you want to know what really happened read some of the diaries of people crossing arizona in the 1800's

So because you are "part" Indian and your relatives never "carry-on" about local history that makes it ok for you?

"Books are for the bored"?

Erm....ok....

Believe it or not, if you'd read my earlier posts properly, you'd have noticed that I have mentioned, on several occasions, that I have studied contemporary records.


But thank you for the advice anyway.


IPUK

 

[azdave35]

So because you are "part" Indian and your relatives never "carry-on" about local history that makes it ok for you?

"Books are for the bored"?

Erm....ok....

Believe it or not, if you'd read my earlier posts properly, you'd have noticed that I have mentioned, on several occasions, that I have studied contemporary records.


But thank you for the advice anyway.


IPUK

what makes what ok?....i guess it was ok for your country to enslave us and tax us to death?..no wonder we ran you guys out of here...lol

 

[Interested Party in UK]

what makes what ok?....i guess it was ok for your country to enslave us and tax us to death?..no wonder we ran you guys out of here...lol

Whoops!

You seem to be taking this thread personally.

That's for you to deal with.

Please feel free to add something of worth and more in keeping the conversation on an adult level, when you've calmed down a bit.

Good luck with it.


IPUK

 

[azdave35]

Whoops!

You seem to be taking this thread personally.

That's for you to deal with.

Please feel free to add something of worth and more in keeping the conversation on an adult level, when you've calmed down a bit.

Good luck with it.


IPUK

i'm calm...i merely pointed out that your govt. did the same thing to us that you claim our govt did to the apache's...the only difference is our govt. won and ran your govt. out...just stating the fact's..that's all..the apache's aren't exactly living in squaller ...they ended up with a huge chunk of some of the prettiest land in arizona...free housing and vehicles...and casino's that everyone on the reservation get a cut of...i have a few apache friends and they dont whine ..they seem to be pretty happy

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK, Az, agreed my friends. Back to the rogue Apache life where the men just lay around and made the wormen do all:: of of the work. After all, they were honorable dry gulchers and baby torturers. and didn't have time for such mundane things. --- Yankee tea.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Today the same applies with the Taliban IPUK Armies are structured against Armies The German army wasn't too successful aganst the underground

Want some calming ?:tea ::tea2: I'll join you. I used that instead of Coffee on my exploration trips, lighter and while you are required to share on the trail protocol, most didn't like tea, so my supplies lasted fr longer.

 

[azdave35]

Today the same applies with the Taliban IPUK Armies are structured against Armies The German army wasn't too successful aganst the underground

Want some calming ?:tea ::tea2: I'll join you. I used that instead of Coffee on my exploration trips, lighter and while you are required to share on the trail protocol, most didn't like tea, so my supplies lasted fr longer.

real....i wish you could make it to the rendezvous this weekend

 

[Interested Party in UK]

i'm calm...i merely pointed out that your govt. did the same thing to us that you claim our govt did to the apache's...the only difference is our govt. won and ran your govt. out...just stating the fact's..that's all..the apache's aren't exactly living in squaller ...they ended up with a huge chunk of some of the prettiest land in arizona...free housing and vehicles...and casino's that everyone on the reservation get a cut of...i have a few apache friends and they dont whine ..they seem to be pretty happy

You really are conflating things in your mind regarding what I did and didn't write.

But that aside, Ifyou want to talk about "facts", let us start with some politics, I am no expert in any sense of the word when it comes to what Great Britain did when the US was one of its colonies. Sure the British were driven out, and rightly so; imperialism is wrong in all its forms. But please do not labour under the assumption that the US government has always had its own way in the world. History tends to disagree with this jingoistic nonsense...

As for present-day Apaches, why oh why would it come into the equation as to what they do or do not have...?

I was under the impression that I started this thread to discuss the historical aspect of the Apache and how it shaped and defined the Southwest and northern Mexico. I have no axe to grind.

You seem to get very defensive very quickly and take offence where none was intended.

And if you ever take the time to travel, and I do not mean within Arizona, perhaps you will see that as well as doing many good things across the globe, your government who you seem very fond of, is viewed with suspicion by many across the globe due to its inability to understand the viewpoint of others. Honestly. I travel and have travelled a fair bit across the world.

Hope you don't vote someone like Trump into the White House...


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK, Az, agreed my friends. Back to the rogue Apache life where the men just lay around and made the wormen do all:: of of the work. After all, they were honorable dry gulchers and baby torturers. and didn't have time for such mundane things. --- Yankee tea.

The 'lazy' Apache loved their families as much as anyone.

You know the reason why Geronimo hated the Mexicans with a vengeance?
He still recalled how they killed his first wife, children and mother...Even in his old age, he would tell visitors: "I am too old to go on the warpath again, but if I could, all roads would lead to old Mexico..."

The Yaqui never did like the Chiricahua Apache after getting their arses whipped...in between getting done by the Mexicans.

Sad but true.

IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

hi IPUK, there were hidden by the Jesuits, not the apache, Incidentally I haven't made a schilling yet. Many complications. all out. This has turned into a sort of White Elephant. My only compensation so far is that I found Tayopa, after the best failed in over 400 years, however that doesn't buy much food. still I am basically satisfied, I have done my primary part for history.

Incidentally It was the Guayajiro indians not the Apache, that forced te Jesuits to close and hide their mines, despite written history.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Today the same applies with the Taliban IPUK Armies are structured against Armies The German army wasn't too successful aganst the underground

Want some calming ?:tea ::tea2: I'll join you. I used that instead of Coffee on my exploration trips, lighter and while you are required to share on the trail protocol, most didn't like tea, so my supplies lasted fr longer.

Don,

I do not understand this fixation with the Taliban and somehow equating it to the Apache of yesteryear. The environment, structure, circumstances and reasoning do not equate in any way, shape or form - other than in your mind.

But each to their own.

Also, I do not recognise how you would tend to try and suggest the Apache would fight in an "army against army" mode given their numbers, but anyway, armies nearly always had guerrilla tactics and special ops teams where necessary.

Given that you have always maintained that you've found the fabled Tayopa of legend that the Apache were responsible for shutting down, those pesky and irksome so-and-so's, you would get no better opportunity to show them up for what you believed them to be, if you finally uncovered the amazing cache of treasures that lie within your grasp - you'd really have the last laugh...


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

hi IPUK, there were hidden by the Jesuits, not the apache, Incidentally I haven't made a schilling yet. Many complications. all out. This has turned into a sort of White Elephant. My only compensation so far is that I found Tayopa, after the best failed in over 400 years, however that doesn't buy much food. still I am basically satisfied, I have done my primary part for history.

Incidentally It was the Guayajiro indians not the Apache, that forced te Jesuits to close and hide their mines, despite written history.

I know it was the Jesuits, but I am pretty sure most have agreed it was the Apache who forced its closure. But that is all immaterial unless you open the place up. I'm afraid history will not really recognise it as being Tayopa unless you bring something more to the table.

If you really believe it to be the Tayopa, then how would you let such a vast treasure, allegedly there, just gather more dust. That would be the clincher in uncovering it.


IPUK