cactusjumper
Gold Member
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
Bowman,
What was your source for tying Kino and the Seven Caves together?
Joe
Bowman,
What was your source for tying Kino and the Seven Caves together?
Joe
histroy of the cave /tunnel
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the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
the killer mts . by Curt Gentery
its all in the idea the indains told Kino that the "Anasazi or Ancient ones"
in my research i could find not definement between these two tribes if that is what they are , the Anasazi were a very early tribe ,man6y at frist believe these two are the same tribe ,,...i dont beleive this is true ..
the Anasazi were my focus of my research to defind what tribe made this secerd cave here is why :
:Anasazi
[CP]
A regional cultural grouping of peoples living along the Arizona–Utah borderlands of the USA, emerging within the Basketmaker Phase defined in the prehistory of the southwestern part of North America. Dating to c.ad 400–1300, the Anasazi tradition is the largest cultural grouping of the period and covers the northwestern quarter of New Mexico, much of southwestern and western Colorado, the northern half of Arizona, and most of Utah: an area known as the ‘Four Corners’. Much of this area has inadequate rainfall for the size of populations involved and some basic irrigation measures were used, although not extensively. Alongside agriculture, hunting and the collecting of wild foodstuffs was also practised. Ceremonial centres near the settlements remained important. Exchange links with Mississippian Cultures are evident from, among other things, similarities in the form of some ceramic containers. The distinctive characteristics of the Anasazi tradition developed during the Basketmaker III Phase (ad 450–750). Beans were added to the diet and communities became more committed to agriculture. Domesticated turkeys were introduced to supplement deer and rabbit meat obtained through hunting and trapping. A sophisticated ceramic technology developed with the resultant bowls and jars often internally decorated with black painted geometric patterns. There was also a transition from scattered village life to nucleated settlements. At first these comprised pit-houses with domed roofs and a central hearth.
After ad 750, in the Pueblo I and II Phases, the size of the settlements increased considerably. These large settlements or ‘pueblos’ comprised multi-storey and multi-roomed houses, some with over 100 rooms and constructed from masonry. By about ad 1300 many of the classic sites of this culture had been abandoned, perhaps because of climatic factors, erosion, intergroup conflicts, or demographic changes. One theory holds that Anasazi communities migrated away from their former homeland.
................................................................
note the Anasazi inhabit the area from well beyond the events to about the same time line as the 1300 vanishing of the tribe in question and
note their connection to the areas of northwestern mexico and southern Arizona,as well as A sophisticated ceramic technology developed with the resultant bowls and jars often internally decorated with black painted geometric patterns.
These large settlements or ‘pueblos’ comprised multi-storey and multi-roomed houses, some with over 100 rooms and constructed from masonry. By about ad 1300 many of the classic sites of this culture had been abandoned, perhaps because of climatic factors, erosion, intergroup conflicts, or demographic changes. One theory holds that Anasazi communities migrated away from their former homeland.
here we see a tribe that could have been there and could have made the bowls and jars told of to Kino not to add the multi storey and multi room houses
" intergroup conflicts"
"One theory holds that Anasazi communities migrated away from their former homeland"
these statements reflect just what my theories had pionted out as posable of the tribe i was looking for ...
i beleive it was the Anasazi but as you already know , there is little to no real evidence to prove this , in fact there is little evidence to prove much is known about the Anasazi at all . most is guess work at best ... i have researched the Anasazi on the web to try to beable to ID a site if i do in fact find it ... i know where to look now ... the dick holmes acount stated around circle of indain ruins .. i know where that is . i cant touch anything in those ruins it is unfaithful to a shaman ...so i have stayed away from exploreing this site
i hope that answerd your question ...CJ
ps "black painted geometric patterns." this one statement caught my eye , remember the black foot prints on the codics and the drawings did show geometric patterns...there are two posable answers here
1. is the codic were made by the Anasazi
2. or the tribes that did make them came in dirrect contect with the Anasazi . i beleive the Anasazi were just what histroy thinks they are . they came from a unknown land "aztlan maybe " reclused to the area and as they tryed to make it there home were in time lost to massacreds and what was left of them faded into time ...maybe they were more peaceful than other tribes or they could have been the inverse oppisite , and sacrificed everyone they could find near their new home ...maybe they are the true founderds of bi polar disorder...lol in fact we just dont know enough about them to have facts beyond what is known ...we know they were artistic ,and creative as well and builders and had a simbolic laguage ...
cactusjumper said:
the killer mts . by Curt Gentery
its all in the idea the indains told Kino that the "Anasazi or Ancient ones"
in my research i could find not definement between these two tribes if that is what they are , the Anasazi were a very early tribe ,man6y at frist believe these two are the same tribe ,,...i dont beleive this is true ..
the Anasazi were my focus of my research to defind what tribe made this secerd cave here is why :
:Anasazi
[CP]
A regional cultural grouping of peoples living along the Arizona–Utah borderlands of the USA, emerging within the Basketmaker Phase defined in the prehistory of the southwestern part of North America. Dating to c.ad 400–1300, the Anasazi tradition is the largest cultural grouping of the period and covers the northwestern quarter of New Mexico, much of southwestern and western Colorado, the northern half of Arizona, and most of Utah: an area known as the ‘Four Corners’. Much of this area has inadequate rainfall for the size of populations involved and some basic irrigation measures were used, although not extensively. Alongside agriculture, hunting and the collecting of wild foodstuffs was also practised. Ceremonial centres near the settlements remained important. Exchange links with Mississippian Cultures are evident from, among other things, similarities in the form of some ceramic containers. The distinctive characteristics of the Anasazi tradition developed during the Basketmaker III Phase (ad 450–750). Beans were added to the diet and communities became more committed to agriculture. Domesticated turkeys were introduced to supplement deer and rabbit meat obtained through hunting and trapping. A sophisticated ceramic technology developed with the resultant bowls and jars often internally decorated with black painted geometric patterns. There was also a transition from scattered village life to nucleated settlements. At first these comprised pit-houses with domed roofs and a central hearth.
After ad 750, in the Pueblo I and II Phases, the size of the settlements increased considerably. These large settlements or ‘pueblos’ comprised multi-storey and multi-roomed houses, some with over 100 rooms and constructed from masonry. By about ad 1300 many of the classic sites of this culture had been abandoned, perhaps because of climatic factors, erosion, intergroup conflicts, or demographic changes. One theory holds that Anasazi communities migrated away from their former homeland.
................................................................
note the Anasazi inhabit the area from well beyond the events to about the same time line as the 1300 vanishing of the tribe in question and
note their connection to the areas of northwestern mexico and southern Arizona,as well as A sophisticated ceramic technology developed with the resultant bowls and jars often internally decorated with black painted geometric patterns.
These large settlements or ‘pueblos’ comprised multi-storey and multi-roomed houses, some with over 100 rooms and constructed from masonry. By about ad 1300 many of the classic sites of this culture had been abandoned, perhaps because of climatic factors, erosion, intergroup conflicts, or demographic changes. One theory holds that Anasazi communities migrated away from their former homeland.
here we see a tribe that could have been there and could have made the bowls and jars told of to Kino not to add the multi storey and multi room houses
" intergroup conflicts"
"One theory holds that Anasazi communities migrated away from their former homeland"
these statements reflect just what my theories had pionted out as posable of the tribe i was looking for ...
i beleive it was the Anasazi but as you already know , there is little to no real evidence to prove this , in fact there is little evidence to prove much is known about the Anasazi at all . most is guess work at best ... i have researched the Anasazi on the web to try to beable to ID a site if i do in fact find it ... i know where to look now ... the dick holmes acount stated around circle of indain ruins .. i know where that is . i cant touch anything in those ruins it is unfaithful to a shaman ...so i have stayed away from exploreing this site
i hope that answerd your question ...CJ
ps "black painted geometric patterns." this one statement caught my eye , remember the black foot prints on the codics and the drawings did show geometric patterns...there are two posable answers here
1. is the codic were made by the Anasazi
2. or the tribes that did make them came in dirrect contect with the Anasazi . i beleive the Anasazi were just what histroy thinks they are . they came from a unknown land "aztlan maybe " reclused to the area and as they tryed to make it there home were in time lost to massacreds and what was left of them faded into time ...maybe they were more peaceful than other tribes or they could have been the inverse oppisite , and sacrificed everyone they could find near their new home ...maybe they are the true founderds of bi polar disorder...lol in fact we just dont know enough about them to have facts beyond what is known ...we know they were artistic ,and creative as well and builders and had a simbolic laguage ...
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
Bowman,
"i hope that answerd your question ...CJ"
Your answer is as good as anyone can expect.
While it has been surmised that the Seven Caves and the Seven Cities of Cibola have a slight connection, it only exists in the number. The cities of Cibola were a legend in Spain, and elsewhere, long before the Spaniards came to the New World. When they heard the story of the Seven Caves from the Aztecs, they immediately connected them to Cibola.
Curt Gentry makes it plain in his book, that there is no accepted source for most of his information on the Jesuit's. It is mostly the lack of documentation on Jesuit Treasure that convinces most people of it's existence. Most of the stories, like yours, have no historical evidence or documentation to prop them up. They remain flights of fantasy and fiction to this day.
You are one of many who have tried to find some truth in these "made up" stories. I did as well.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Bowman,
"i hope that answerd your question ...CJ"
Your answer is as good as anyone can expect.
While it has been surmised that the Seven Caves and the Seven Cities of Cibola have a slight connection, it only exists in the number. The cities of Cibola were a legend in Spain, and elsewhere, long before the Spaniards came to the New World. When they heard the story of the Seven Caves from the Aztecs, they immediately connected them to Cibola.
Curt Gentry makes it plain in his book, that there is no accepted source for most of his information on the Jesuit's. It is mostly the lack of documentation on Jesuit Treasure that convinces most people of it's existence. Most of the stories, like yours, have no historical evidence or documentation to prop them up. They remain flights of fantasy and fiction to this day.
You are one of many who have tried to find some truth in these "made up" stories. I did as well.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
i agree with your statement . there is little evidence to show relationship between the seven caves and the seven cities , but what if the Anasazi are the evidence or that evidence is in these caves ,,
much the way the Templar reacted to the stroyies of Atlandtis maybe even confusing them as being the same tribes and wanted to find where they went ,,, maybe the Templar commander told them to take the treasure of christ as far as they could to the other side of the planet if need be , at the time that could very well have been AZ. lol
maybe they were following the Anasazi's path from their home land of Aztlan ...
maybe the storyies of seven caves and seven cityies were made up to misleed people from finding their hiden secerd place
maybe their hiden secerd place was the seven caves !
maybe the true meaning of cibola was known to the Anasazi and the spainsh were trying to locate them as well '
i am not trying to defind the seven cities . i am have a lot to do just to defind one cave ...
but the fact remains . if the Templar did go to the Azores and then to Cap Verde and then to Brazil and north to mayan lands and then to mexica and ended up in these caves ,, they could have been following the Anasazi from Aztlan tis or the hole path is nothing more then where they were taken tobe sacrificed ...
who knows the translation misteaks that have been made of these events ...
and yes i agree with you i have not found any dirrect link between the seven cityies and the seven caves untill i looked at the Anasazi and the templar theories ...
maybe it was not a logical event that took the Templar there,sacrifice is high i the motive list ,... and the same could be true of the Anasazi there home land had vanished beneth the ocean ...
is it hard to c a bowl if you dont have one ... c i bol a
but lets not forget the acount told to Kino about the gold on the houses and gold bowls and gold dishes .. if i am right those things were from the templar treasure trove , and the gold on the houses could be the indain ruins told to dick holmes . they are a few 100ft away from the pit ...
are they talking about the last supper setting i pionted out in the tayopa treasure list ...?this is even one more piont to say i could be right , i know its not what is beleived to have taken place , but who told us to believe those things and why ....?
i agree with your statement . there is little evidence to show relationship between the seven caves and the seven cities , but what if the Anasazi are the evidence or that evidence is in these caves ,,
much the way the Templar reacted to the stroyies of Atlandtis maybe even confusing them as being the same tribes and wanted to find where they went ,,, maybe the Templar commander told them to take the treasure of christ as far as they could to the other side of the planet if need be , at the time that could very well have been AZ. lol
maybe they were following the Anasazi's path from their home land of Aztlan ...
maybe the storyies of seven caves and seven cityies were made up to misleed people from finding their hiden secerd place
maybe their hiden secerd place was the seven caves !
maybe the true meaning of cibola was known to the Anasazi and the spainsh were trying to locate them as well '
i am not trying to defind the seven cities . i am have a lot to do just to defind one cave ...
but the fact remains . if the Templar did go to the Azores and then to Cap Verde and then to Brazil and north to mayan lands and then to mexica and ended up in these caves ,, they could have been following the Anasazi from Aztlan tis or the hole path is nothing more then where they were taken tobe sacrificed ...
who knows the translation misteaks that have been made of these events ...
and yes i agree with you i have not found any dirrect link between the seven cityies and the seven caves untill i looked at the Anasazi and the templar theories ...
maybe it was not a logical event that took the Templar there,sacrifice is high i the motive list ,... and the same could be true of the Anasazi there home land had vanished beneth the ocean ...
is it hard to c a bowl if you dont have one ... c i bol a
but lets not forget the acount told to Kino about the gold on the houses and gold bowls and gold dishes .. if i am right those things were from the templar treasure trove , and the gold on the houses could be the indain ruins told to dick holmes . they are a few 100ft away from the pit ...
are they talking about the last supper setting i pionted out in the tayopa treasure list ...?this is even one more piont to say i could be right , i know its not what is beleived to have taken place , but who told us to believe those things and why ....?
the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
let me show you something .this is the path of the templar crossing
note i did not map the chianti italy , but this is the main path , they stop at the Azores and sent some ships to oak island to miss ledd others , and they sail south to Cap Verde
let me show you something .this is the path of the templar crossing
note i did not map the chianti italy , but this is the main path , they stop at the Azores and sent some ships to oak island to miss ledd others , and they sail south to Cap Verde
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the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
from Cap Verde to brazil and then westward to san carlos venezuelathen to Bogta colombia to panama and north to mecia and ending up in the seven caves of the Anasazi ...in Az.
from Cap Verde to brazil and then westward to san carlos venezuelathen to Bogta colombia to panama and north to mecia and ending up in the seven caves of the Anasazi ...in Az.
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the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
thats some unbeleiveable parlor trick right .. i hope you were watching , take a string and start in jerusalam and each place they went messure the distences on the string untill you get to AZ , now take that string and run it from there back to the left to jerusalam ... thats rght , do you under stand navagation . you were exactly on the other side of the earth ...everyone missed it , the templar's navagated by the stars and sun lines , they maynot have known north pacific was even there at the time but . that dose not change the orbits of the stars and sun and moon ...
they went to the other side of the world to hide these treasures . their other side .......not ours ...
is this why ...AZ. they were looking for a place to hide this vast treasure .... they may have tryed to trick the Anasazi , and they were sacrificed or massacred , two totally diffrent events comeing togather for two totally diffrent reasons . with a vanishing outcome for both of them ...maybe the templar made them sick and the anasazi massacred them for it ...or sacrificed them trying to stop the sickness ...
the out come is the same ...the Anasazi ended up there because they made other tribes sick and then the same happend to the templar . the anasazi could have sacrificed other tribes trying to stop the sickness , could this be the reason behind the sacrifices in 1275 to the 1300's and the vanishing of the Anasazi ...?
one reason the death of many !
thats some unbeleiveable parlor trick right .. i hope you were watching , take a string and start in jerusalam and each place they went messure the distences on the string untill you get to AZ , now take that string and run it from there back to the left to jerusalam ... thats rght , do you under stand navagation . you were exactly on the other side of the earth ...everyone missed it , the templar's navagated by the stars and sun lines , they maynot have known north pacific was even there at the time but . that dose not change the orbits of the stars and sun and moon ...
they went to the other side of the world to hide these treasures . their other side .......not ours ...
is this why ...AZ. they were looking for a place to hide this vast treasure .... they may have tryed to trick the Anasazi , and they were sacrificed or massacred , two totally diffrent events comeing togather for two totally diffrent reasons . with a vanishing outcome for both of them ...maybe the templar made them sick and the anasazi massacred them for it ...or sacrificed them trying to stop the sickness ...
the out come is the same ...the Anasazi ended up there because they made other tribes sick and then the same happend to the templar . the anasazi could have sacrificed other tribes trying to stop the sickness , could this be the reason behind the sacrifices in 1275 to the 1300's and the vanishing of the Anasazi ...?
one reason the death of many !
the blindbowman
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ericwt
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
Okay this is interesting. However the historical link to Kino is highly questionable. I have read all the Kino Diaries that were published. (All of them except the missing years).
There is no mention of this in them.
But that is not real important. I suppose it could be in the missing years.
How does all of this relate to the Dutchman tale? Are you saying the Dutchman treasure is in this tunnel/cave?
Where is the link between the two?
Okay this is interesting. However the historical link to Kino is highly questionable. I have read all the Kino Diaries that were published. (All of them except the missing years).
There is no mention of this in them.
But that is not real important. I suppose it could be in the missing years.
How does all of this relate to the Dutchman tale? Are you saying the Dutchman treasure is in this tunnel/cave?
Where is the link between the two?
the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
its not the idea that it is the same latitude its the fact they went in land to lose anyone that could have been following them , and the idea they ended up the same place as the anasazi did .. . piont being why go north at all if they were just trying to hide the treasure .... they could have hide the treasure in italy ...
the facts remain . the site is a fortress , they could see anyone comeing for miles away , and look what happend to the massacres sites . they won out right . i believe this is why i pionted out the sickness theories ...
as far as deffeting them in this mt range . was a joke . they could defend easy ....we are talking king of the mt here .. it would be near imposable to get close with out them seeing you ...
the years is between 1302 -1305 ...
i am a 6 times golden shell back , i have crossed the Equator 12 times yes, i am awhere of the panama canal and you should under stand if i am right the horn would have been to rough for heavy ships ..this may be the one of the reason they went inland ..
if i am right they most likely sank the ships somewhere near Amapa brazil ...near the mouth of the Amazon ,,
i corrected charts for the US navy .. i know what your saying and i can correct for chages ...but under normal conditions you would be right ...
i didnt miss the area between them , i beleive it was already inhabbited and they could not defend that area as well as the mt range ..this could also hint that the templars were not going to the seven caves on their own free will ...
i agree i dont think they got to where they were going .. the Anasazi may have had other ideas ..
its not the idea that it is the same latitude its the fact they went in land to lose anyone that could have been following them , and the idea they ended up the same place as the anasazi did .. . piont being why go north at all if they were just trying to hide the treasure .... they could have hide the treasure in italy ...
the facts remain . the site is a fortress , they could see anyone comeing for miles away , and look what happend to the massacres sites . they won out right . i believe this is why i pionted out the sickness theories ...
as far as deffeting them in this mt range . was a joke . they could defend easy ....we are talking king of the mt here .. it would be near imposable to get close with out them seeing you ...
the years is between 1302 -1305 ...
i am a 6 times golden shell back , i have crossed the Equator 12 times yes, i am awhere of the panama canal and you should under stand if i am right the horn would have been to rough for heavy ships ..this may be the one of the reason they went inland ..
if i am right they most likely sank the ships somewhere near Amapa brazil ...near the mouth of the Amazon ,,
i corrected charts for the US navy .. i know what your saying and i can correct for chages ...but under normal conditions you would be right ...
i didnt miss the area between them , i beleive it was already inhabbited and they could not defend that area as well as the mt range ..this could also hint that the templars were not going to the seven caves on their own free will ...
i agree i dont think they got to where they were going .. the Anasazi may have had other ideas ..
the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
lets look at the thoery . as it played out at the dutchmans time . note the dutchman pit is above the tunnel /cave . it shows up the same way on the peralta stones ...and the acount to dick holmes
but you must remember the acount to dick holmes is only one acount plus the dutchman make statements about the cave or tunnel ...
and his pit being a chruch grant ...
. maybe he was refering to the jesuits . maybe he was refering to the templars , mainly the priest statue in the tunnel .. the jesuit kino may have been told about the cave and the pit . but may have never seen them frist hand .. and i have stated the stones IMHO were made by the templar not the jesuits
i can tell you from my sighting and the dutchman legend and the stones and the ruth map they are all of the same location . and the cave and the pit is shown on the stones ..now this is very interesting because of the man that brakes his leg . he sees a statue in the cave , now the question would be . is this the same cave ...?
i dont think there is 2 two caves out there with two statues of gold priest out there in the area of weavers needle ...the odds would be way to much ...
are you saying dutchman treasure as in the large cache . or the ore of the pit .. the large cache is at the hiden camp ...i can figer the large cache is about 150 lbs of ore and is at the hiden camp ...
and yes i do agree the Kino acount is not perfect ...... it has a few miss statments ...he may have seen the ruins but i dont beleive he knew about the secerd caves other then being told about them .and the histroy of the area ... IMHO his acount is secoundhand at best ...we can beleive the acounts are true bout his roll is in question IMHO .. i do not beleive the jesuits had very much to do with these caves unless they were massacred there ...
i will say i beleive if the stroy of him killing the minner was true most likely the minners things are in the caves ..or the hiden camp area ...
ericwt said:
lets look at the thoery . as it played out at the dutchmans time . note the dutchman pit is above the tunnel /cave . it shows up the same way on the peralta stones ...and the acount to dick holmes
but you must remember the acount to dick holmes is only one acount plus the dutchman make statements about the cave or tunnel ...
and his pit being a chruch grant ...
. maybe he was refering to the jesuits . maybe he was refering to the templars , mainly the priest statue in the tunnel .. the jesuit kino may have been told about the cave and the pit . but may have never seen them frist hand .. and i have stated the stones IMHO were made by the templar not the jesuits
i can tell you from my sighting and the dutchman legend and the stones and the ruth map they are all of the same location . and the cave and the pit is shown on the stones ..now this is very interesting because of the man that brakes his leg . he sees a statue in the cave , now the question would be . is this the same cave ...?
i dont think there is 2 two caves out there with two statues of gold priest out there in the area of weavers needle ...the odds would be way to much ...
are you saying dutchman treasure as in the large cache . or the ore of the pit .. the large cache is at the hiden camp ...i can figer the large cache is about 150 lbs of ore and is at the hiden camp ...
and yes i do agree the Kino acount is not perfect ...... it has a few miss statments ...he may have seen the ruins but i dont beleive he knew about the secerd caves other then being told about them .and the histroy of the area ... IMHO his acount is secoundhand at best ...we can beleive the acounts are true bout his roll is in question IMHO .. i do not beleive the jesuits had very much to do with these caves unless they were massacred there ...
i will say i beleive if the stroy of him killing the minner was true most likely the minners things are in the caves ..or the hiden camp area ...
the blindbowman
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
the templars would have most likely taken their horses & mules .and after being at sea so long it would have been time to go in land ,...and i do agree with you mrs. oroblanco this pionts out to sea fairing facts , one is the roughness of the south sea and the other is how heavy were these ships and how much feed did they have for their horse and mules and men , if they were transporting this treasure would they have risk it ... i dont think so ... just the idea of faceing the horn with heavy loaded ships would make no sence to a ships captain .... no, if it was me i would have sank the ships and went in land to lose other ships from following them it maybe one of the reasons they stayed in land so long ..
these ships were not heavyly armed in those years ,,,
mrs.oroblanco said:
the templars would have most likely taken their horses & mules .and after being at sea so long it would have been time to go in land ,...and i do agree with you mrs. oroblanco this pionts out to sea fairing facts , one is the roughness of the south sea and the other is how heavy were these ships and how much feed did they have for their horse and mules and men , if they were transporting this treasure would they have risk it ... i dont think so ... just the idea of faceing the horn with heavy loaded ships would make no sence to a ships captain .... no, if it was me i would have sank the ships and went in land to lose other ships from following them it maybe one of the reasons they stayed in land so long ..
these ships were not heavyly armed in those years ,,,
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
Bowman,
I am beginning to find the pattern in your thinking.
You have read a great deal, apparently understanding little of what you have read, but retaining some of the facts. Taking those facts, you have added in your own "what if(s)" and "maybe(s)" to create a story that takes in every treasure tale ever told and placing the locations in your "seven caves".........eventually boiling it all down to the Superstition Mountains.
Your real sources are the "visions" you have, and each one seems to take you farther and farther from reality. Few people will share your visions.
When you are not directly quoting others, your posts are very entertaining....but IMHO, pure fiction.
Horses (that could be ridden) were not in the Americas until the 1500s. You will need to drop your "Templar" theory and timeline if you are going to include horses and mules in the mix.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
Bowman,
I am beginning to find the pattern in your thinking.
You have read a great deal, apparently understanding little of what you have read, but retaining some of the facts. Taking those facts, you have added in your own "what if(s)" and "maybe(s)" to create a story that takes in every treasure tale ever told and placing the locations in your "seven caves".........eventually boiling it all down to the Superstition Mountains.
Your real sources are the "visions" you have, and each one seems to take you farther and farther from reality. Few people will share your visions.
When you are not directly quoting others, your posts are very entertaining....but IMHO, pure fiction.
Horses (that could be ridden) were not in the Americas until the 1500s. You will need to drop your "Templar" theory and timeline if you are going to include horses and mules in the mix.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
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- #34
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
i would like to add a statment here if i could .
say i was right about this thoery . if it was true there would be some sign if the templars did show up at the seven caves area . what evidence would show up and where ... it would have been most likely lemited to very little evidence and the tribes of the area would have most likely recorded them being there . the codic dose imho show them being there . and the dose the stone tablets ' so here are two peice of evidence that show my theory is not logical but was recorded by a tribe in the area .
so i ask you would the codic show these things if the templar had not been there , and would the priest stone most likely be diffrent then it is ...
?
my piont is not is there evidence of them being there . is it posable and is there any evidence that they could have been there , the answer is out right yes there is evidence that say they could have been there not only been there but in the time line of the templars vanishing act ...note only in the more latter years did the templar have priest that wore the robes and cross ontheir arms . and note if i am right the priest has already been betrayed by the chruch . makeing it in or around the years they vanished ...
dose the horse with no rides have new meaning under these conditions ...is this some sign to other templars of the load being removed from the horses and the stones show where ...
you know my opioion of what the stones say .. but i cant tell you what to think . thats up to you and you alone ... facts speak for them selfs . its when there is little evidence that we need to focus less and collect more ...so we dont miss evidence ...
if i was wrong why are these things there ... everyone beleived what others told them and the clues leed people to beleive what was not true ..to a dead end ...
my theories are not the only ones out there , but i stated i am the only one alive to have seen the pit or the tunnel and only 3 people in history can say this and the other two are dead ....
i would like to add a statment here if i could .
say i was right about this thoery . if it was true there would be some sign if the templars did show up at the seven caves area . what evidence would show up and where ... it would have been most likely lemited to very little evidence and the tribes of the area would have most likely recorded them being there . the codic dose imho show them being there . and the dose the stone tablets ' so here are two peice of evidence that show my theory is not logical but was recorded by a tribe in the area .
so i ask you would the codic show these things if the templar had not been there , and would the priest stone most likely be diffrent then it is ...
?my piont is not is there evidence of them being there . is it posable and is there any evidence that they could have been there , the answer is out right yes there is evidence that say they could have been there not only been there but in the time line of the templars vanishing act ...note only in the more latter years did the templar have priest that wore the robes and cross ontheir arms . and note if i am right the priest has already been betrayed by the chruch . makeing it in or around the years they vanished ...
dose the horse with no rides have new meaning under these conditions ...is this some sign to other templars of the load being removed from the horses and the stones show where ...
you know my opioion of what the stones say .. but i cant tell you what to think . thats up to you and you alone ... facts speak for them selfs . its when there is little evidence that we need to focus less and collect more ...so we dont miss evidence ...
if i was wrong why are these things there ... everyone beleived what others told them and the clues leed people to beleive what was not true ..to a dead end ...
my theories are not the only ones out there , but i stated i am the only one alive to have seen the pit or the tunnel and only 3 people in history can say this and the other two are dead ....
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
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- #35
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
some good piont but not true i can be as real as anyone of you but then i would be standing around saying wish way did it go wish way did it go ....lol
you may want to rethink what you stated . how many horse could have made that distence in those conditions and if the anasazi were the tribe in question would they have ate the horses or sacrificed them with the templars
maybe there was no records at the time ... how many black cats or white dogs were in the area at the time ...see my piont ...
did the tribe even no what a horse was at the time , may this is why the aztec reacted to the horses of the spanish .. you cant eat just one .....lol tastey but hard to find a pan that size ....
cactusjumper said:
some good piont but not true i can be as real as anyone of you but then i would be standing around saying wish way did it go wish way did it go ....lol
you may want to rethink what you stated . how many horse could have made that distence in those conditions and if the anasazi were the tribe in question would they have ate the horses or sacrificed them with the templars
maybe there was no records at the time ... how many black cats or white dogs were in the area at the time ...see my piont ...
did the tribe even no what a horse was at the time , may this is why the aztec reacted to the horses of the spanish .. you cant eat just one .....lol tastey but hard to find a pan that size ....
Oroblanco
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Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
Greetings,
So we now have to add in a herd of horses and mules to the Templar expedition? Friend Blindbowman, you are fond of saying what if your theory is correct - well have you considered the alternative? What if your theory is wrong?
What if those Peralta stones are nothing but a hoax?
What if those diggings you saw were not mines at all but old workings left by earlier Dutchman-hunters, and you should know well these old workings, which have pretty much NO gold, are fairly numerous through the Superstitions?
What if it was not Templars at all, nor Peraltas, nor Aztecs, nor Jesuits, nor Franciscans, nor French, nor Mexicans, but something else entirely?
You face a rather uphill battle trying to convince a pack of treasure hunters like we find here in Treasurenet, folks who want to see concrete proof of any claimed discovery. Your quest is sure to be both fun and frustrating, but I do hope you will take your own advice and "remove all labels" - stop concluding that what we see is Templars or Aztecs or anything else until ALL the evidence is in, or at least enough to make the case indisputable. The mystery might well turn out to be something that no one here has even thought of....
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Greetings,
So we now have to add in a herd of horses and mules to the Templar expedition? Friend Blindbowman, you are fond of saying what if your theory is correct - well have you considered the alternative? What if your theory is wrong?
What if those Peralta stones are nothing but a hoax?
What if those diggings you saw were not mines at all but old workings left by earlier Dutchman-hunters, and you should know well these old workings, which have pretty much NO gold, are fairly numerous through the Superstitions?
What if it was not Templars at all, nor Peraltas, nor Aztecs, nor Jesuits, nor Franciscans, nor French, nor Mexicans, but something else entirely?
You face a rather uphill battle trying to convince a pack of treasure hunters like we find here in Treasurenet, folks who want to see concrete proof of any claimed discovery. Your quest is sure to be both fun and frustrating, but I do hope you will take your own advice and "remove all labels" - stop concluding that what we see is Templars or Aztecs or anything else until ALL the evidence is in, or at least enough to make the case indisputable. The mystery might well turn out to be something that no one here has even thought of....
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
- 30
- Thread starter
- #37
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
i love it when people use true wisdom , you are correct , there is little reason for the templars to end up in the Superstitions other then one of the best hideing places on earth , i dont think thats where they were headed , i think thats where they were taken ...this is most likely why the treasure was never recoverd . ...
this is not to say i am right , , it is to state there is evidence out there that pionts both ways , and so many have been looking in the other dirrections . i cant help but look here and see if there is more evidence that pionts in this dirrection and i do keep finding evidence , most looks to be out of place with the legend but in a faded way it fits the path i have found ...often when we look for treasure the smallest clue can be the biggest value .. we wont know what i have found untill after expedition 3 ...
but if i was wrong would this peice beable to be seen both ways and would there be evidence that pionts to me being right .. right or wrong is not the question do i the trail refound or not ...
i can tell you everyclues i have read tells me i am right .. even if some of the clues are faked . it has been reflected by the truth that i am in the right area ...
think of this everyone is out there looking for the LDM . where i saw funnel and pit is almost insane to get to it ...i think this is why the dutchman wanted the nephew to come and help .. plus the fact he was afade of being caught taken ore from the tunnel . as someone pointed out people had been hanged for high grading ore ...
no one in there right mine would look where the pit is , you would have to be shown where it is . or have a death wish ...i tryed to get to it from 7 diffrent dirrections and it has only one dirrection that is able to get to it and that is hard ass climbing ,this is no walk in the park ...i have mt climbed to 4000ft .with ropes and i wonderd a few times if free climbing to the pit was a dumb idea ... i got there and had about a 1/2 before i had to start back down ...and if your smart go back the same way you came up ... there is a little trick in the path if you dont come back the same way you went up you will walk right out in med air at about 400 ft up ..
me and my brother have climbed and rock hound togather for many years and we almost didnt see it comeing .. this is not for newbe ...
its out right dangerous and anyone trying to get there is out right risking his life or injury .... thats the main reason i beleive the dick holmes acount the dutchman says "they showed him the shaft " after a hole day of climbing and getting back down , you totally spent !
its a matter of time and research and i will use every secound till i go on expedition 3
mrs.oroblanco said:
i love it when people use true wisdom , you are correct , there is little reason for the templars to end up in the Superstitions other then one of the best hideing places on earth , i dont think thats where they were headed , i think thats where they were taken ...this is most likely why the treasure was never recoverd . ...
this is not to say i am right , , it is to state there is evidence out there that pionts both ways , and so many have been looking in the other dirrections . i cant help but look here and see if there is more evidence that pionts in this dirrection and i do keep finding evidence , most looks to be out of place with the legend but in a faded way it fits the path i have found ...often when we look for treasure the smallest clue can be the biggest value .. we wont know what i have found untill after expedition 3 ...
but if i was wrong would this peice beable to be seen both ways and would there be evidence that pionts to me being right .. right or wrong is not the question do i the trail refound or not ...
i can tell you everyclues i have read tells me i am right .. even if some of the clues are faked . it has been reflected by the truth that i am in the right area ...
think of this everyone is out there looking for the LDM . where i saw funnel and pit is almost insane to get to it ...i think this is why the dutchman wanted the nephew to come and help .. plus the fact he was afade of being caught taken ore from the tunnel . as someone pointed out people had been hanged for high grading ore ...
no one in there right mine would look where the pit is , you would have to be shown where it is . or have a death wish ...i tryed to get to it from 7 diffrent dirrections and it has only one dirrection that is able to get to it and that is hard ass climbing ,this is no walk in the park ...i have mt climbed to 4000ft .with ropes and i wonderd a few times if free climbing to the pit was a dumb idea ... i got there and had about a 1/2 before i had to start back down ...and if your smart go back the same way you came up ... there is a little trick in the path if you dont come back the same way you went up you will walk right out in med air at about 400 ft up ..
me and my brother have climbed and rock hound togather for many years and we almost didnt see it comeing .. this is not for newbe ...
its out right dangerous and anyone trying to get there is out right risking his life or injury .... thats the main reason i beleive the dick holmes acount the dutchman says "they showed him the shaft " after a hole day of climbing and getting back down , you totally spent !
its a matter of time and research and i will use every secound till i go on expedition 3
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
- 30
- Thread starter
- #38
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
what if the moon was blue ? it is every so often ,,... i think that how often a real clue can be founded and it takes a lot of them to relocate this sites
i except the finding of expedition 3 . if i cant find some hard evidence in 20 days . i need to get the hell out of there and write the disapionting novel .... lol ...
ether way i will have for fill my dreams to try and relocate what i saw in 1979 ,.. thats the true pay off in my opioion . life is real reach out and try to live and be part of your dreams .. even if we can not fly it dose not mean we should stop dreaming about flying
where would mankind be if that had been the case ...?
&
i know i could be setting here after expedition 3 . looking back at the cost of around $34,000. and haveing very little to show for it . but maybe , just maybe ,, god rewards those willing to be free from within and dare to see beyond what is known , those willing to face them selfs and all others in the will to dream and to try to make those dream come true .. we can all fail . there is no shame in failing , there is only shame in not trying at all ...if you lose your will to dream . i would rather be dead then go threw life with out my own free will to live as i will to ...
i reach in my pocket and pull out my quartz sample and i can not tell you what i feel knowing i went across the US ,to AZ and back by my self to hold this sample in my hand , after 19 years of being a reclues, we are all our own jailers if we dare not to persue our dream and make them our future realies ...
Oroblanco said:Greetings,
So we now have to add in a herd of horses and mules to the Templar expedition? Friend Blindbowman, you are fond of saying what if your theory is correct - well have you considered the alternative? What if your theory is wrong?
What if those Peralta stones are nothing but a hoax?
What if those diggings you saw were not mines at all but old workings left by earlier Dutchman-hunters, and you should know well these old workings, which have pretty much NO gold, are fairly numerous through the Superstitions?
What if it was not Templars at all, nor Peraltas, nor Aztecs, nor Jesuits, nor Franciscans, nor French, nor Mexicans, but something else entirely?
You face a rather uphill battle trying to convince a pack of treasure hunters like we find here in Treasurenet, folks who want to see concrete proof of any claimed discovery. Your quest is sure to be both fun and frustrating, but I do hope you will take your own advice and "remove all labels" - stop concluding that what we see is Templars or Aztecs or anything else until ALL the evidence is in, or at least enough to make the case indisputable. The mystery might well turn out to be something that no one here has even thought of....
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
what if the moon was blue ? it is every so often ,,... i think that how often a real clue can be founded and it takes a lot of them to relocate this sites
i except the finding of expedition 3 . if i cant find some hard evidence in 20 days . i need to get the hell out of there and write the disapionting novel .... lol ...
ether way i will have for fill my dreams to try and relocate what i saw in 1979 ,.. thats the true pay off in my opioion . life is real reach out and try to live and be part of your dreams .. even if we can not fly it dose not mean we should stop dreaming about flying
where would mankind be if that had been the case ...?
&
i know i could be setting here after expedition 3 . looking back at the cost of around $34,000. and haveing very little to show for it . but maybe , just maybe ,, god rewards those willing to be free from within and dare to see beyond what is known , those willing to face them selfs and all others in the will to dream and to try to make those dream come true .. we can all fail . there is no shame in failing , there is only shame in not trying at all ...if you lose your will to dream . i would rather be dead then go threw life with out my own free will to live as i will to ...
i reach in my pocket and pull out my quartz sample and i can not tell you what i feel knowing i went across the US ,to AZ and back by my self to hold this sample in my hand , after 19 years of being a reclues, we are all our own jailers if we dare not to persue our dream and make them our future realies ...
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
Bowman,
"ether way i will have for fill my dreams to try and relocate what i saw in 1979 ,.. thats the true pay off in my opioion ."
The part I emphasised in bold, does not conform with other posts you have made. Are you now saying you have not been back to this location since 1979? If you have, why would you need "to try and relocate" it?
"we timed it twice .you make it to the starting piont in one day easy. but you can not make it to the pit and back down in one day ..."?
Joe
Bowman,
"ether way i will have for fill my dreams to try and relocate what i saw in 1979 ,.. thats the true pay off in my opioion ."
The part I emphasised in bold, does not conform with other posts you have made. Are you now saying you have not been back to this location since 1979? If you have, why would you need "to try and relocate" it?
"we timed it twice .you make it to the starting piont in one day easy. but you can not make it to the pit and back down in one day ..."
?Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel
B,
"Now you are yanking my chain!!"
When was he not "yanking" all of our chains?
Seems like the best thing for all of us to do, is sit back and enjoy the ride. Now and then, you should honk the horn, just to be an integral part of the whole experience.
HONK.....HONK!!!!!
Joe
B,
"Now you are yanking my chain!!"
When was he not "yanking" all of our chains
? Seems like the best thing for all of us to do, is sit back and enjoy the ride. Now and then, you should honk the horn, just to be an integral part of the whole experience.
HONK.....HONK!!!!!
Joe
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