Cave of gold bars

[nmth]

Gollum / Mike said something about hearts.
There's a good one at lostadamsgold.com in article on Lost Adams. Point is, this (possible Jesuit?) heart is from between Santa Rita del Cobre and Hillsboro and Caballos. The big three are all found over there in abundance. Lake Valley is right there, too.

I understand Tom. If he, as by far the biggest local expert he knows, has found no hint or sniff in 20 years, then WHY should be believe. Maybe he logically should not. I'm the same way with the treasure sign cloud gazers. (my signs are all obvious, of course... Hah)

20 years is not that long, btw. Humans get so little time, and the world is still big.

 

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[azdave35]

Gollum / Mike said something about hearts.
There's a good one at lostadamsgold.com in article on Lost Adams. Point is, this (possible Jesuit?) heart is from between Santa Rita del Cobre and Hillsboro and Caballos. The big three are all found over there in abundance. Lake Valley is right there, too.

I understand Tom. If he, as by far the biggest local expert he knows, has found no hint or sniff in 20 years, then WHY should be believe. Maybe he logically should not. I'm the same way with the treasure sign cloud gazers. (my signs are all obvious, of course... Hah)

20 years is not that long, btw. Humans get so little time, and the world is still big.

i know treasure hunters that have hunted for 20 years and not found jack crap....and i've known guys that found something within the first year...believe it or not alot of it has to do with luck...some guys are luckier than others...and some guys are bull headed closed minded idiots that will never find anything

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia...do you plan on coming to the rendezvous this year?

Haven't given it any thought. I'm often out of the country in October.

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Hope all is well with you.

"My information also comes from the renowned Jesuit Historian at Georgetown University, Father John O'Malley SJ. He is a Jesuit, and is the person that told me originally about the Pope using slaves to man the Papal Barge in Rome."

Your statement only deals with the Pope, Slaves and the Papal Barge. Father O'Malley will not comment on Jesuit mining or treasure in the Southwest, as he has not studied/researched that area. The most positive thing he has told me in that regard, is that it's possible that some Jesuits could have been involved it some kind of mining. We, of course, all know they were........(Some)

In archaeology, all new extraordinary finds must be examined and authenticated by the finders peers in that field. In that process many, not all, are proven to be frauds. In the Jesuit treasure finds, the artifacts are never authenticated by experts. There are claims of such authentication, but they end up being just a story.

As you all know, I was a firm believer in Jesuit treasure. It took many years of research to dissuade me of that notion. Having said that, I am still open to the possibility. It will take more than a good story to put me back in the believer column.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

I am doing well. Hope the same for you and Carolyn. Sitting here in Dewey, enjoying the beautiful view from the Blue Hills.

Don't put Father O'Malley in that corner so quickly! HAHAHA He said many things in our correspondences. For instance, when I asked him if the Order was involved mining back then (either directly or indirectly through coadjutors), why would they still deny it 300 years later?

His reply:

Dear Mike....I can't think of any reason they would deny it
later...unless it was part and parcel of a larger picture, viz., to deny
any "commercial" activity, as defense against enem,ies who used that
against them. jwo

Here was his reply to my theory regarding Temporal Coadjutors being the ones who ran Jesuit Mines:


Coadjutors are laymen (not clerics) who are members of the Society, just as novices and scholastics (not ordained members who are studying for the priesthood). The "temporal coadjutors" at times made up as much as 1/3 of the membership of the Society.....they were often men with highly developmed professional training---architects, goldsmiths, carpenters, etc.--who did not have the "book learning" required for priesthood in the Society. They ran the Jesuit farms,oversaw building projects...and could very well have overseen mining projects.


I would think that would be classified as MUCH MORE than a "No Comment". I have posed that same question to some other Jesuits, and got the Polzer Reply: "The Jesuits played no part in any mining activities!"


Tom,

Here was Father O'Malley's reply to my question regarding Jesuit Slave Ownership:

Hi, Mike,
Yes, indeed, the Jesuits had slaves---for sure in the New World, but,
as I recall, also in Europe. This is well documented and at least to
some extent has been studied. I can't, however, at the moment give you
any references but I'm almost sure those studies of the Jesuit
plantations (not Reductions) in Latin America treat it. Slave-holding
was taken as a fact of life.....the popes had slaves, principally to man
their galleys, at least until the beginning of the 19th century. (See
The Papacy: An Encyclopedia, 3 vols). Hope that helps! John


What many people "KNOW" is not necessarily how it was! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Haven't given it any thought. I'm often out of the country in October.

Steve,

You should make the effort. Many of us would love to see you there, as well as your lovely better half.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Hey Joe,

I am doing well. Hope the same for you and Carolyn. Sitting here in Dewey, enjoying the beautiful view from the Blue Hills.

Don't put Father O'Malley in that corner so quickly! HAHAHA He said many things in our correspondences. For instance, when I asked him if the Order was involved mining back then (either directly or indirectly through coadjutors), why would they still deny it 300 years later?

His reply:

Dear Mike....I can't think of any reason they would deny it
later...unless it was part and parcel of a larger picture, viz., to deny
any "commercial" activity, as defense against enem,ies who used that
against them. jwo

Here was his reply to my theory regarding Temporal Coadjutors being the ones who ran Jesuit Mines:


Coadjutors are laymen (not clerics) who are members of the Society, just as novices and scholastics (not ordained members who are studying for the priesthood). The "temporal coadjutors" at times made up as much as 1/3 of the membership of the Society.....they were often men with highly developmed professional training---architects, goldsmiths, carpenters, etc.--who did not have the "book learning" required for priesthood in the Society. They ran the Jesuit farms,oversaw building projects...and could very well have overseen mining projects.
I would think that would be classified as MUCH MORE than a "No Comment". I have posed that same question to some other Jesuits, and got the Polzer Reply: "The Jesuits played no part in any mining activities!"


Tom,

Here was Father O'Malley's reply to my question regarding Jesuit Slave Ownership:

Hi, Mike,
Yes, indeed, the Jesuits had slaves---for sure in the New World, but,
as I recall, also in Europe. This is well documented and at least to
some extent has been studied. I can't, however, at the moment give you
any references but I'm almost sure those studies of the Jesuit
plantations (not Reductions) in Latin America treat it. Slave-holding
was taken as a fact of life.....the popes had slaves, principally to man
their galleys, at least until the beginning of the 19th century. (See
The Papacy: An Encyclopedia, 3 vols). Hope that helps! John


What many people "KNOW" is not necessarily how it was! HAHAHA

Mike

Mike,

I won't be showing any of the emails I exchanged with Father O'Malley, nor would I have recorded any of our phone calls. It's enough that I know the direction of his opinions on this subject. As I said, all of the claims of Jesuit/Coadjutors mining in the Southwest are "possible". I would love to see any of my friends, including Roy, show me verifiable evidence that Jesuit treasures are out there. That does not include the many stories of finds that exist. I hope that Don Jose one day opens up his Tayopa and provides solid proof that it's what he believes it to be.

Of all the books that Father O'Malley wrote, "The First Jesuits" remains my favorite. I have a signed and inscribed first edition. Try to find one.

Good luck and take care brother,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

You should make the effort. Many of us would love to see you there, as well as your lovely better half.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks for the invite, Joe. I don't have a specific interest in the LDM per se, but I would greatly enjoy meeting the many Dutch Hunters who would be attending. We'll have to see how things shake out.

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I won't be showing any of the emails I exchanged with Father O'Malley, nor would I have recorded any of our phone calls. It's enough that I know the direction of his opinions on this subject. As I said, all of the claims of Jesuit/Coadjutors mining in the Southwest are "possible". I would love to see any of my friends, including Roy, show me verifiable evidence that Jesuit treasures are out there. That does not include the many stories of finds that exist. I hope that Don Jose one day opens up his Tayopa and provides solid proof that it's what he believes it to be.

Of all the books that Father O'Malley wrote, "The First Jesuits" remains my favorite. I have a signed and inscribed first edition. Try to find one.

Good luck and take care brother,

Joe

Hey Buddy,

There's nothing privileged or secret about what I shared. And you are right, it was all what is possible. But compared to other answers I have received, it almost seemed like a signed confession! HAHAHA

Verifiable? Like Ron Quinn's 82 pounds of gold bars that I have pictures of verifiable? Like Chuck Kenworthy's 1028 2.5 pound silver bars that came from less than 5 miles from Ron's Site? I think 1028 silver bars inscribed with the name "PADRE SAETA" pretty much seals the deal about Jesuit Treasure Bars. There are pictures of both Kenworthy's Bars and Ron Quinn's Bars. I have the pics of Ron's, and a pic of one of Kenworthy's. Those aren't stories.

Take Care - Mike

 

[azdave35]

Hey Buddy,

There's nothing privileged or secret about what I shared. And you are right, it was all what is possible. But compared to other answers I have received, it almost seemed like a signed confession! HAHAHA

Verifiable? Like Ron Quinn's 82 pounds of gold bars that I have pictures of verifiable? Like Chuck Kenworthy's 1028 2.5 pound silver bars that came from less than 5 miles from Ron's Site? I think 1028 silver bars inscribed with the name "PADRE SAETA" pretty much seals the deal about Jesuit Treasure Bars. There are pictures of both Kenworthy's Bars and Ron Quinn's Bars. I have the pics of Ron's, and a pic of one of Kenworthy's. Those aren't stories.

Take Care - Mike

what about the bars and coins recovered a couple miles south of quarter circle u ranch 25 years ago?...i saw one of the coins and the barber in apache junction (bill bemal) saw the bars...it scrambled him so bad he murdered the finder of the treasure because he wouldn't tell him where he found the bars...bill went to prison and died there

 

[gollum]

Dave,

I don't know anything about that find. I would have to see what the bars looked like. They could have been from any of many sources.

NMTH,

Hearts dont necessarily mean the same things to different people.

As far as I know, to the Jesuits, a heart only refers to the Sacred Heart, and the heart will be below a cross. To the Spanish, a heart is a reference to gold/treasure. Spanish were big on biblical references: Book of Matthew= "Look to your heart, for that is where the treasure is..."

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hey Buddy,

There's nothing privileged or secret about what I shared. And you are right, it was all what is possible. But compared to other answers I have received, it almost seemed like a signed confession! HAHAHA

Verifiable? Like Ron Quinn's 82 pounds of gold bars that I have pictures of verifiable? Like Chuck Kenworthy's 1028 2.5 pound silver bars that came from less than 5 miles from Ron's Site? I think 1028 silver bars inscribed with the name "PADRE SAETA" pretty much seals the deal about Jesuit Treasure Bars. There are pictures of both Kenworthy's Bars and Ron Quinn's Bars. I have the pics of Ron's, and a pic of one of Kenworthy's. Those aren't stories.

Take Care - Mike

Hi Mike,

I probably didn't express that correctly. I only meant I would not share private emails or direct quotes without his permission. Had nothing to do with what you had written.

Guys, so far, it's only stories and pictures which can all be manufactured. No real authentication by experts.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[BlackLine]

just one more map that indicats to the terrapin pass




maybe this ruin with the defensive wall will help you to find proof of the jesuits in the mountains.

33°33'08.3"N 110°47'10.7"W

 

[sdcfia]

Hi Mike,

I probably didn't express that correctly. I only meant I would not share private emails or direct quotes without his permission. Had nothing to do with what you had written.

Guys, so far, it's only stories and pictures which can all be manufactured. No real authentication by experts.

Good luck,

Joe

As I recall from TNet threads a couple-three years ago, a seller of antiquities, by virtue of metallurgical analysis, confirmed that one of Kenworthy's silver ingots being offered for sale through one of his clients was of modern manufacture. In the same time period, it was also confirmed, to me at least, that the Quinn recovery - however large it was - was of gold hidden in the US by a rich Mexican rancher during the Revolution who was trying to avoid trouble from the Villa faction. Yes, there is loot in the ground. Is it "Jesuit treasure?" If you want it to be ... then I guess it is.

 

[nmth]

Dave,
NMTH,

Hearts dont necessarily mean the same things to different people.

As far as I know, to the Jesuits, a heart only refers to the Sacred Heart, and the heart will be below a cross. To the Spanish, a heart is a reference to gold/treasure. Spanish were big on biblical references: Book of Matthew= "Look to your heart, for that is where the treasure is..."

Mike

There's a great heart thread around here somewhere...

The heart I am referring to (there's a pic on the site) has a cross, though one with equal arm lengths (which I would usually associate with silver or coins, personally). There is a little point in the top of the heart, which I find interesting. The work is well-done, deeply-incised, and obviously weathered. Like many signs, this one is now gone (mother nature this time). Always take pictures and GPS coordinates, folks.

Sorry for the off-topic post (unless the Supes have heart symbols? - not my geography... yet). BlackLine: keep it up, but be safe. Nothing is worth your life, but nothing worthwhile doing in your life is entirely risk-free, either! If all the experts were 100% correct, then they would likely not be posting here and there would be nothing to find.

 

[gollum]

As I recall from TNet threads a couple-three years ago, a seller of antiquities, by virtue of metallurgical analysis, confirmed that one of Kenworthy's silver ingots being offered for sale through one of his clients was of modern manufacture. In the same time period, it was also confirmed, to me at least, that the Quinn recovery - however large it was - was of gold hidden in the US by a rich Mexican rancher during the Revolution who was trying to avoid trouble from the Villa faction. Yes, there is loot in the ground. Is it "Jesuit treasure?" If you want it to be ... then I guess it is.

Steve,

You are going to have to attribute/link that. I hadn't heard either one. I will contact Ron and see what he says. Somehow, I doubt 1028 bars would have been of modern manufacture, but I have an open mind, and am waiting for proof of modern manufacture.

I also remember a guy that came out of the Superstitions with gold he said he found. Some "experts" looked at it and said it was Dental Gold. Problem is, naturally occurring gold can have the same properties. Not certain what finally came of that.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

You are going to have to attribute/link that. I hadn't heard either one. I will contact Ron and see what he says. Somehow, I doubt 1028 bars would have been of modern manufacture, but I have an open mind, and am waiting for proof of modern manufacture.

I also remember a guy that came out of the Superstitions with gold he said he found. Some "experts" looked at it and said it was Dental Gold. Problem is, naturally occurring gold can have the same properties. Not certain what finally came of that.

Mike

That's a fair request, and even though you were involved in both discussions I will try to respond. I don't keep copies of my posts and I never have much luck with the search engine here, so I'll have to run down the Quinn recovery thread manually from my old posts. The gist of the argument was, as I recall, that a very well-respected and connected man whom I know personally provided the information about the rancher. He knew Quinn quite well as I recall, but I can't remember offhand whether or not he got his rancher info from Quinn himself or someone else. Anyway, I'll post a link to the thread when I find it. Nobody questioned a Quinn recovery - but the loot being Jesuit in nature was definitely disputed.

As I remember from the "silver ingot" thread, there was never any documentation that a count of 1028 bars was verified, although Kenworthy did have some ingots. It was strongly suggested that the ingots in question were some of the "Kino bars" that Milton Rose allegedly discovered in the 1930s. Readers ought to find the following link very enlightening regarding the well-known "Kino bars" in particular, and some of the methodology used today to verify the authenticity of artifacts. Kino Ingot & Cross - Holabird Western Americana Collections

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I don't know anything about that find. I would have to see what the bars looked like. They could have been from any of many sources.

NMTH,

Hearts dont necessarily mean the same things to different people.

As far as I know, to the Jesuits, a heart only refers to the Sacred Heart, and the heart will be below a cross. To the Spanish, a heart is a reference to gold/treasure. Spanish were big on biblical references: Book of Matthew= "Look to your heart, for that is where the treasure is..."

Mike

mike..i never saw the bars..just a coin...all i remember is it was silver and crudely stamped

 

[gollum]

That's a fair request, and even though you were involved in both discussions I will try to respond. I don't keep copies of my posts and I never have much luck with the search engine here, so I'll have to run down the Quinn recovery thread manually from my old posts. The gist of the argument was, as I recall, that a very well-respected and connected man whom I know personally provided the information about the rancher. He knew Quinn quite well as I recall, but I can't remember offhand whether or not he got his rancher info from Quinn himself or someone else. Anyway, I'll post a link to the thread when I find it. Nobody questioned a Quinn recovery - but the loot being Jesuit in nature was definitely disputed.

As I remember from the "silver ingot" thread, there was never any documentation that a count of 1028 bars was verified, although Kenworthy did have some ingots. It was strongly suggested that the ingots in question were some of the "Kino bars" that Milton Rose allegedly discovered in the 1930s. Readers ought to find the following link very enlightening regarding the well-known "Kino bars" in particular, and some of the methodology used today to verify the authenticity of artifacts. Kino Ingot & Cross - Holabird Western Americana Collections

Joe,

When I shared the contents of those emails in 2010, you didn't mention having any problems with me sharing them then?


Steve,

First, you really should come to the Rendezvous this year.

Kenworthy Bars, they are absolutely not part of anything recovered by Rose. The hole the Kenworthy Ingots came out of is still visible. My friend in Tumacacori showed it to me years ago. We can put that one to bed right away. Regarding the Kenworthy Bars, the only thing I have heard that is even slightly at odds with Kenworthy's Story, is that the bars were located by someone else, and recovered by Kenworthy. I believe the first mention of 1028 bars was from an issue of the old "Treasure Hunter Confidential" Newsletter. Not 100% though.



As for Ron's Bars, I really don't recall ever being part of a conversation where their origins were anything other than Jesuit were discussed (but I have been part of so many conversations about so many different stories, on several forums, I can't swear to it. HAHAHA).

Gettin' Old Is Hell!

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Joe,

When I shared the contents of those emails in 2010, you didn't mention having any problems with me sharing them then?


Steve,

First, you really should come to the Rendezvous this year.

Kenworthy Bars, they are absolutely not part of anything recovered by Rose. The hole the Kenworthy Ingots came out of is still visible. My friend in Tumacacori showed it to me years ago. We can put that one to bed right away. Regarding the Kenworthy Bars, the only thing I have heard that is even slightly at odds with Kenworthy's Story, is that the bars were located by someone else, and recovered by Kenworthy. I believe the first mention of 1028 bars was from an issue of the old "Treasure Hunter Confidential" Newsletter. Not 100% though.

View attachment 1476731

As for Ron's Bars, I really don't recall ever being part of a conversation where their origins were anything other than Jesuit were discussed (but I have been part of so many conversations about so many different stories, on several forums, I can't swear to it. HAHAHA).

Gettin' Old Is Hell!

Mike

funny you bring up charles kenworthy....we were watching buzzr tv a while back (a channel devoted to old tv game shows) ..an episode of family feud came on and guess who was on it?...

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Thanks guys for all your hard research. I enjoy reading it all. My question is who is the experts who can verify the Jesuit's work. I would say that bar is the real thing just from what is not obvious. That being the small things on it. As far as the heart is concerned. Who used the human shape heart. Not the valentine shaped one. Sorry if this ? Is off track. There is a wealth of knowledge here.

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