The Big Rebel Mine

[Jeep Nomad]

Jacob Waltz, 1810, Wurttemberg and America 1839. The odds of this not being the dutchman seem very low to me, but I'm a novice compared with Mathew Roberts, gollum and cactusjumper. Thanks for the leads and maps. You'll made my day!

 

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[cactusjumper]

Jacob Waltz, 1810, Wurttemberg and America 1839. The odds of this not being the dutchman seem very low to me, but I'm a novice compared with Mathew Roberts, gollum and cactusjumper. Thanks for the leads and maps. You'll made my day!

JN,

Thank you for the compliment, but I'm also a novice compared to Matthew and Mike.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

JN,

Thanks again. I agree that the Jacob Waltz in your document is most likely "OUR" Jacob Waltz. Its just a question of how he got to America.

I only get into the minutiae arguments like this when I am not able to get outdoors for one reason or another. I am always willing to look at new evidence, and change my thoughts accordingly, but I was given a piece of advice many years ago. It basically goes: Don't get bogged down in arguing minutiae. Research your subject until you firmly believe it either exists or it doesn't..........then go look for it (or don't). There are so many tiny details in the Jacob Waltz/LDM Story that I prefer to leave others to iron out.

Honestly, there has been so much bull$hit, fake leads, fake stories, etc spouted regarding the LDM that I don't even hunt it. I prefer hunting the lesser known stories that haven't been subjected to hundreds of years of fabrication. I also prefer just going into the mountains and see what I run into. I know most of the stories, the curses, and a lot of the history, so when I am out roaming, and see something that might apply to the LDM, Jesuit Treasure, Caves of Gold Bars, Lost Ledges of Gold and Silver, etc, I am able to see if there are any other clues to that story in that area.

I have said this for many years now; "There has been so much BS associated with the Lost Dutchman that nobody will ever find it based on any known stories. I predict the person who finds the LDM will be some Birkenstock Wearing, Tree Hugging Hippie on an off-trail nature walk. His leg will accidentally go through the cover, and he will be famous not knowing anything about the legend." HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Jeep Nomad]

Hi Matthew, what is the history of the Yavapai County recorder's books related to the Walnut Grove Mining District? I have a copy of the Big Rebel claim in different handwriting from the recorder that is worded exactly like the document you have from page 45, but my copy is from page 132. Was the original book re-scribed by the recorder? Were all the districts incorporated into one master book of mines? Are copies of these recorder's books available anywhere? Any maps you have around Walnut Grove or Craig would be greatly appreciated.

Attached is the May 1864 territorial census at Fort Whipple.

View attachment fort whipple census waltz backens smith.jpg

 

[musician]

Just a correction to Wildeck. That was also the name of a castle near Vohenlohe. At that time it was home to a wood-ranger which fits the job of Preiss.

@gollum Healthy attitude not to loose too much time on a forum. The way through France would be the easier way, not longer and maybe offering more ships compared to german ports. If you look on a map, it is the area Stuttgart, Heilbronn. At that time Germany was divided into many small independent states, no democracies, with many frontiers compared to France, where Waltz had an uncle, according to the mentioned article.
http://www.bpb.de/cache/images/6/142656-st-original.jpg?B65B6

Those details are only of interest, if they provide new information or the possibility to control some facts in other sources. At least I would guess that Walz gave some information to family members too.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hi Matthew, what is the history of the Yavapai County recorder's books related to the Walnut Grove Mining District? I have a copy of the Big Rebel claim in different handwriting from the recorder that is worded exactly like the document you have from page 45, but my copy is from page 132. Was the original book re-scribed by the recorder? Were all the districts incorporated into one master book of mines? Are copies of these recorder's books available anywhere? Any maps you have around Walnut Grove or Craig would be greatly appreciated.

Attached is the May 1864 territorial census at Fort Whipple.

View attachment 1485813

Hello Jeep Nomad,

All of the oldest Recorders records from the 1860's are confusing and the people at Sharlott Hall Museum are not much help sorting things out for you.

Here is how it was done at the Prescott Courthouse in the years 1864-1868: The county Recorder had one big book that he recorded everything in.
On one page might be a mining claim followed by a deed for sale of land followed by somebody's will.

As business grew and he was recording more legal documents he took on Deputy Recorders and eventually they started breaking down the Mining Districts into their own book.
So the Walnut Grove Mining district has recordings like Waltz's Big Rebel claim in two books, the master recorders book and the book of mine claims for Walnut Grove.
You can use either book to find the Big Rebel and that's the reason for the different page numbers.

In districts like the Walker District it gets even more confusing because some of the early Walker claims were transferred into the Big Bug Mining District and those claims show up as transfers in yet a third book.

If you go to Sharlott Hall don't expect anyone to get excited about helping you. Take a lunch and be persistent.

I will look through my maps of the Walnut Grove District and the community of Craig.

Best,

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Jeep Nomad,

Here is what I mean by the confusion with the old Mining Claim recordings.
Waltz's Gross Lode claim was originally recorded Sept 21, 1863 by JV Wheelhouse the Yavapai County Recorder. It was recorded in the first Recorders book of Yavapai County.

Later on, the Walker Mining District was split and part of the District became the Turkey Creek District.
Waltz's Gross Lode claim was transferred from the Walker to the Turkey Creek District and recorded in yet another book of Records.

Here is that transfer Recording:



71
Transfer Recording of the Gross Lode Turkey Creek District

(Notice)
Is hereby given that the following (Gents) Viz) Wm. Gross, Fisher, Jacob Waltz, JR Black and G Brooks Claims five claims by preemption and one by Discovery on the "Gross Lode" two of which are situated in a northeast direction from their notice placed in a pile of rocks. Three claims in a southwest direction from said Notice, also one hundred feet on each side of the lode with all it's dips, spins and angles together with all Minerals contained therein.

Transfered Sept 10th, 1864
Turkey Creek District
10 AM, A.D. 1864
Charles Taylor Recorder


Recorded in Walkers District
Sept. 21st, 1863
by JV Wheelhouse Recorder


It is not an easy task to track those early records.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Jeep Nomad,

Here are two maps of your area:


This map shows locations of the Red Buck mine, the Massachusetts Group, the Navy Group, the Zonia group, the Presidents group and claims in Placerita Canyon to the west.


A Section Map showing the Red Buck Mine and the community of Craig. Map is circa 1903.


Matthew

 

[StreamlineGold]

Rebel in this thread is a patent..its not more than a half mile from one my own. Pretty unlikely it was Waltz before it was patent.

I am real curious about the gross lode however, I have a friend that has a claim on Turkey creek, its a lode and its an UUM (Unknown Un-named mine), has about a 60ft drift with winze in it.

 

[Jeep Nomad]

Big Rebel Origins

Rebel in this thread is a patent..its not more than a half mile from one my own. Pretty unlikely it was Waltz before it was patent.

I am real curious about the gross lode however, I have a friend that has a claim on Turkey creek, its a lode and its an UUM (Unknown Un-named mine), has about a 60ft drift with winze in it.

The location of the Big Rebel claim of Waltz/Backens/Smith can never be known for certain, but Waltz was unknown until early 1900's and the Big Rebel was a continuous claim until Jim Callen (son of Grizzly Callen) filed for the patent. The BR and Red Buck are on the same NE fault line which runs for 1.5 miles with the BR as the most mineralized. The BR stayed in the Callen family line for 100+ years until I bought the property.

Your claim must be the Silver Crown (Queen)?

 

[A2coins]

I would think someone would have found the mine by now

 

[Al D]

I would think someone would have found the mine by now

 

[A2coins]

I love that movie and The treasure of the Sierra Madre Im surprised theres not a movie about the lost Dutchmans mine. lol

 

[393stroker]

I love that movie and The treasure of the Sierra Madre Im surprised theres not a movie about the lost Dutchmans mine. lol

That would be a good Clint Eastwood movie.

 

[Oroblanco]

I love that movie and The treasure of the Sierra Madre Im surprised theres not a movie about the lost Dutchmans mine. lol

Already done - "Lust for Gold" starring Glenn Ford and Ida Lupino. Based on Barry Storm's work, he sued to producers over the "literary license" changes they made which made himself pretending to be Waltz's grandson, which he never had made any such claim.

 

[A2coins]

Is it something I can watch or was it pulled for some reason I love movies like that.

 

[azdave35]

Is it something I can watch or was it pulled for some reason I love movies like that.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

OK posters: How about sticking to the subject! Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[A2coins]

Thanks, I apologize I didnt mean to change topic

 

[Jeep Nomad]

MS 1156 document

Attached is the patent application and mineral survey for the Big Rebel. Thomas Glover indicated that he has covered the Big Rebel and General Grant claims in Walnut Grove District in his part 2 book that will be released soon. Early leader in the area was AW Callen (Old Grizzly). There is a great write up on Placeritas on the web. Callen did find free gold at Placeritas. No free gold at the Big Rebel.

View attachment MS-1156.pdf