Isogonic drift - March to May of 1767

[El Gato]

I found this posted on the DesertUSA website about the Peralta stone maps. Just wondering if anyone on Treasure Net knows anything about Isogonic Drift that would support or dispute this guy's theory? He continues on with some Jesuit history and the importance of the date 1715. I just copied info about the isogonic drift.


Date of the stone maps
Maptech
Southern California

It might be a little easier putting a date on the maps by utilizing information that was available during the time the map was made and comparing it to information that was available in 1949 when they were discovered, and information available today. For example, all maps need a relativly fixed point to navigate by. In early nagation, this point was either the pole star, or magnetic north. Anyone who navigates by maps knows that both the pole star is not fixed nor magnetic north. In 2012 A.D. we will be changing pole stars to Draco. This due to the fact that polaris will move far enough from the pole position as Draco moves in. Hence the long count calendar renews. Magnetic north moves erraticly. Isogonic lines on aviation charts must be redrawn or renumbered every 10 years due to the fact that magnetic north constantly changes. Any map that is intended to be accuratly navigated by, must contain a isogonic drift to make compass corrections by. On the priest map, you will note the code " 8-N-P " This is the isogonic drift devience. ie. from the point of navigating this map, North Polaris is 8 degrees from magnetic north. Hence 8-N-P. is 8 Norte Polaris. Now, if you use the geomagnetic calculator software developed in 1979 and enter in the lat and long of Weavers Needle and the magnetic varience of 8 degrees, it will churn out the date of March to May of 1767. This is the only time magnetic north was 8 degrees off from the pole star. Today it is around 11.5 degrees off and it has been as much as 14 degrees since 1767. The only time this information was at hand was when the map was made and after 1979. In 1949 when the magnetic variance was 13+ degrees, and when the maps surfaced, nobody knew what the magnetic varience was in 1767. The Jesuits were expelled in 1767 from New Spain. Nobody in 1949 would be able to know what to put as a magnetic drift if they were making a fake map. A computor program had do take the isogonic lines from every map in existance and compute all the variences and fill in all the blanks. There are no maps in existance of the Arizona region with isogonic lines anywhere near that time period. It would take a master map making genious to fake the peralta stones, or a Jesuit in 1767 to produce them.

 

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[Old Dog]

El Gato,

Hey buddy, this sheds a lot of light on some things.
Also explains how nobody put two and two together until Joe figured it out without a compass.

North may change but the terrain won't change enough to make much difference.

OD

 

[Peerless67]

All very intresting but how do we know that the map maker used either magnetic north or a star?
maybe only landmarks were used in which case all of that is redundant

 

[Old Dog]

Orienteering would be the easiest way to lay out as accurate a trail as Joe laid out on the topo.
And it matches to a "T" .
Must admit I've not seen anything even close in comparison.

OD

 

[El Gato]

All very intresting but how do we know that the map maker used either magnetic north or a star?
maybe only landmarks were used in which case all of that is redundant

Peerless

I may not understand your question, but if I do, wouldn't they have to be using both, the north star and a compass to determine 8 degrees from Polaris?

If I understand what Maptech is saying, then 8-N-P is a correction factor to be used in navigating to the final destination. Then he states that the correction factor of 8-N-P has only existed once in history, and that was between March and May of 1767.





Old Dog

The problem with Joe's theory about where the maps lead to is that when you get there there is nothing there. Just a boulder that to some may think resembles a heart and to others it is just a boulder. He talks about monuments and mines in the area but like BB he has no photos of any of them. He talks about the monuments and mines as if he believes they indicate that it was at one time a mining area and that those mines are shown on the stone maps also, so it all fits and the maps are solved.

In his next post he claims the maps are fake made by some kind of conspiricy between De Grazia, Aylor and Kollenborn. I think if he would draw his map trail out on a topo as he believes it to be and posts it, everyone would see that it does not really fit to a "T" afterall.

Joe is on too many sides of the fence at the same time for me to follow his flip-flopping logic.

El gato

 

[cactusjumper]

OD,

Many thanks for the kind words. That layout started with a lucky guess that flowed into a complete map......with few variations. I believe you and Oro may be the only two members here who took the time and effort to check my claims.

What you are seeing on the map does not tell the whole story. A lot of stories and maps help to bolster the area. After this many years, the loop that gets thrown is very wide.

While I don't personally believe it.....I could be wrong. Anyone who can show me a better map, will find a willing student. Even at that, I am not so sure that the Stone Maps are not a modern-day creation.

I have seen some of the other conclusions, reached by people who are way smarter than me, but none of them fit like mine. Most use interpretation, while I take the simplest and most direct route......what can be seen with your eyes. I know, crazy concept.

We must have codes, angles, twisting of the stones and a vast knowledge of the heavens.
Without all of that being factored in, we don't have a chance of understanding what we are seeing.

There are Jesuit using the King's secret codes to hide their treasures from the King (that's a story in itself), Aztecs hiding their treasures from the Spanish, Templars using their own codes and with their own treasures to hide. I know I have left some out, but my memory ain't so good as it useter be.

For those of you who have looked at the pictures of the Bully Bueno trip, thank you for the kind words. I invited a number of folks that I knew had an interest in the story and the mine, but only one took me up on the invitation.

Having read a great deal of the history of the area, and in particular the story of Bueno and the Bully Bueno Mine, I can assure you it was one hell of an adventure actually locating it. I plan on making more trips into that area and soaking up more of it's rich history. My thanks to the folks who helped make it possible.

Like most of the knowledge I have gained over the years, many people have been more than kind with their hard won research and advise to make it all possible. In this case, Dwight Bennett took the lead in helping me find the mine. Others who gave me advise and the benefit of their own research, and in some cases their company, were: Matthew, Dick Huffman, Wayne, Dr. Thomas Glover, Larry Wright and Gregory Davis. If I left anyone out......Age.....etc.

I am really looking forward to my next trip to the Bradshaw's.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Old Dog]

Friend Joe,

You Sir are humble to the letter.

whether by accident or by intense study. it is a fantastic discovery,This thing intrigued me to the point it kept me up until 3o AM trying alternatives. LOL
Admitting you are right is no problem I still have a couple other topos to do but I think the results will be the same.

Using a compass is about the only way to construct a map of the type shown on the Peralta stones. Variations are only that. The slight changes between the manufacture of the stones and current topos is very simply time and elements. Topographical maps will give you the lay of the land as it is today, this changes as can be seen in topos from 50 years ago compared to today. I am not surprised that a slight variation is evedent.

No way I will not give credit where it should be placed
It's all yours Joe, stand by it.

Thom
OD

 

[cactusjumper]

Thom,

Here is something of interest when looking at the map:

Assuming that the triangle slash is Weaver's Needle, it follows that the line coming towards it from the northwest(ish) is East Boulder Canyon. Between where that line ends and the Needle, is an X.

If that line is East Boulder Canyon, does anyone know why it stops at that particular spot on the Stone Maps?

Joe

 

[Old Dog]

Joe,

I have not a single clue as to why. I almost made a smart a....lec answer by saying,
maybe the stones just weren't big enough to go farther...
But the truth is I don't know.

The real sad part of the whole thing is I am too far away to go out and look.
Anyone else have a clue?

Thom

 

[cactusjumper]

Thom,

At the exact point where East Boulder Canyon seems to end on the Stone Maps, the trail actually breaks to the right, up and out of the canyon floor. Past that point, the canyon is no longer of any importance. You leave it from there to go to the X.

So far, one of the Xs was Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars and the other is a sealed mine (modern era claim). As far as I know, the X between East Boulder and Weaver's Needle has never been found......unless it's Bob Brady's cave of gold bars. Seems to be a recurring theme.

No code, just the lay of the land.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

are you talking about the sighting piont on the trail map ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"are you talking about the sighting piont on the trail map ..."

Perhaps.....Can't really say, as I have no idea what a "piont" is. I have seen you use that word before, but it remains a mystery to me.

I was really looking forward to that picture.

Joe

 

[Old Dog]

Brady's cave could be the "X" but i must admit I would like to look for myself.....

Someday,

LOL
OD

 

[cactusjumper]

Thom,

If Brady lied, my family was involved in the search, it could be he told them it was on the east side of Needle Canyon, while the cave was actually on the west side. On the other hand, he may have gotten the canyons mixed up, and they should have been searching east of East Boulder Canyon. Both of these options stay on a pretty straight east west line from where they searched.

Al Morrow told my aunt that he had found the cave.....gold bars and all. He later told my Uncle Chuck, that he did not call her and say that he found it. It's quite the story.

Joe

 

[Old Dog]

Joe,

When you hear something like that it kind of makes the blood boil a bit.
amazing how quickly a trust can be lost. You think you know someone and all of a sudden they have stuck it to someone you love.

Sorry to hear about that, even after all this time that must be a deep disappointment.

Thom

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hio: Small thing but the Isogonic and North Star lines were important In many cases! While the Jesuits were very good in latitude, they were weak in Longitude due to not having very accurate time pieces. This can be critical in some cases.

I have a map from the late1700's of a mine that was located by compas headings. It was abandoned because of the Apache raids. It was effectively lost by the time that the Apache were pacified since the compass bearings were no longer effective due to the Isogonic factor. Closed mines in a general area are hard to find, believe me.

Once adjusted, it was a piece of cake to locate it, unfortunately not viable under today's Au Ag prices, perhaps tomorrow? Remember their production costs were effectively much smaller per unit of materiel mined.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

hio: Small thing but the Isogonic and North Star lines were important In many cases! While the Jesuits were very good in latitude, they were weak in Longitude due to not having very accurate time pieces. This can be critical in some cases.

I have a map from the late1700's of a mine that was located by compas headings. It was abandoned because of the Apache raids. It was effectively lost by the time that the Apache were pacified since the compass bearings were no longer effective due to the Isogonic factor. Closed mines in a general area are hard to find, believe me.

Once adjusted, it was a piece of cake to locate it, unfortunately not viable under today's Au Ag prices, perhaps tomorrow? Remember their production costs were effectively much smaller per unit of materiel mined.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"North Star lines were important In many cases! While the Jesuits were very good in latitude, they were weak in Longitude due to not having very accurate time pieces. This can be critical in some cases."

you must be good .. few under stand that even today .. the templar did the same thing,often trying to use sun Azmuth..for time of day with one failuar piont . no horizon...

 

[cactusjumper]

Thom,

My aunt was not lying.

Joe

 

[El Gato]

Hey CJ

I thought you had your version of how the stone maps are solved in another in another topic........... or 5 or 6 of them it's everywhere in every discussion.

I started this separate topic on ISOGONIC DRIFT to get away from your theories.

Since you are here, I might as well ask you again to put your trail to a topo so we can all have a look at it. The only thing I see when I try it per your instructions is lines going over impassable places. Maybe I just don't understand your explanation, but the the burdon of proof is not on me to explain YOUR theory.

I showed you what was wrong with your 4 Peaks theory, and your starting point for the trail. I even showed you where the trail really starts. (Per your request)

It is your turn to bring out the photos of your monuments and mines and show us where you think the trail goes and how it all fits together with your triangles and hearts and monuments and mines and caves with gold bars. Oh... and yes, your slight variations too.

If you can.


El Gato

 

[Peerless67]

Hey CJ

I thought you had your version of how the stone maps are solved in another in another topic........... or 5 or 6 of them it's everywhere in every discussion.

I started this separate topic on ISOGONIC DRIFT to get away from your theories.

Since you are here, I might as well ask you again to put your trail to a topo so we can all have a look at it. The only thing I see when I try it per your instructions is lines going over impassable places. Maybe I just don't understand your explanation, but the the burdon of proof is not on me to explain YOUR theory.

I showed you what was wrong with your 4 Peaks theory, and your starting point for the trail. I even showed you where the trail really starts. (Per your request)

It is your turn to bring out the photos of your monuments and mines and show us where you think the trail goes and how it all fits together with your triangles and hearts and monuments and mines and caves with gold bars. Oh... and yes, your slight variations too.

If you can.


El Gato

Now thats fighting talk