The Pit Mine, the LDM, Kochera and the Nugget of Truth video.

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew

To guess how that " camp " ore came from the camp that discovered an Army scout in the 19th century , following the tracks of a massacre ?

markmar,

The "Camp Ore" as TE Glover called it, had long been thought to match the known samples of Dutchman ore because of how and where it was found. "Camp Ore" had previously been assayed and tested for mineral and element compounds as well as quartz type and surrounding matrix. "Camp Ore" was before Dr. Glover did his testing, the most thoroughly analazied ore of the 6 samples. Going into that SEM/ESD testing it was already known exactly what was in the "Camp Ore's" makeup.

The "Camp Ore" was being tested for the first time against the known samples of Dutchman ore.

No one, including Dr. Glover has ever made the claim over the past 20 years since that ore testing was done, that the Camp Ore came from the Lost Dutchman Mine or was in fact "Dutchman Ore." That is in sharp contrast to the Kochera Ore, its owner and those who promote Kochera ore as being LDM ore from the Lost Dutchman Mine.

"Camp Ore" was and is privately held and as stated, no one connected with it has ever made any attempts to publish a book about it or put any of it up for sale.

The sample of Kochera Ore was sold to Dr. Glover for his testing while the sample of "Camp Ore" was freely given and was the only sample made available for destructive testing.

Matthew

 

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[markmar]

markmar,

The "Camp Ore" as TE Glover called it, had long been thought to match the known samples of Dutchman ore because of how and where it was found. "Camp Ore" had previously been assayed and tested for mineral and element compounds as well as quartz type and surrounding matrix. "Camp Ore" was before Dr. Glover did his testing, the most thoroughly analazied ore of the 6 samples. Going into that SEM/ESD testing it was already known exactly what was in the "Camp Ore's" makeup.

The "Camp Ore" was being tested for the first time against the known samples of Dutchman ore.

No one, including Dr. Glover has ever made the claim over the past 20 years since that ore testing was done, that the Camp Ore came from the Lost Dutchman Mine or was in fact "Dutchman Ore." That is in sharp contrast to the Kochera Ore, its owner and those who promote Kochera ore as being LDM ore from the Lost Dutchman Mine.

"Camp Ore" was and is privately held and as stated, no one connected with it has ever made any attempts to publish a book about it or put any of it up for sale.

The sample of Kochera Ore was sold to Dr. Glover for his testing while the sample of "Camp Ore" was freely given and was the only sample made available for destructive testing.

Matthew

Matthew

From your explanation , I understood ( maybe ) about how the " Camp ore " looks like and where is its source .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

markmar,

"Camp Ore" was by FAR the richest sample ore. While Kochera ore and the others consisted of one or two small pieces with a little gold showing, the Camp Ore was a large amount with actual gold content of most of the pieces topping 70% gold to 25% quartz matrix.

These photos give you some idea of the richness of the Camp Ore compared to gold content in say the Kochera sample.




Camp Ore. The piece on the left contains both visible native Gold and native Silver. The piece on the right is 75% gold.





The same piece of Camp Ore 75% Gold from a different angle and light.





Kochera Gold. (R.Newkirk photo)





Gold Stick Pin Dutchman




Matchbox crafted from Dutchman Ore.

 

[wrmickel1]

Good post Matthew

5 samples of Ore, That I can possibly mark off as being from the same geological event that my ore is from, You could never cut my Quarts and make things from it in this manner it would simply fall out of the quarts.

So I'll mark this ore as not the Dutchman's ore, But is ore from the Peralta maps, But I have a couple more spots to go

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

BM,

On page 109 of the first edition of "Thunder Gods Gold" 1945, Storm wrote, "I picked it up, saw that it was flint-like Quartz speckled with iron pyrite and gold, hefted its unusual weight exultantly in my hand. Bonanza stuff!". That is the only description I recall, and no picture was included in the book. Page 115 contains the top of an assay report with a picture of Storm in Boulder Canyon.

Good luck,

Joe

Thanks Joe,

Not sure why he's in boulder Canyon, Maybe if I knew where it was it might.

Thanks again Joe,

Don't know why everyone making books just don't say why they added it to the samples in the first place.

 

[JohnWhite]

One thing about modern ore testing...One would have to test many mine's ore IF one would truly want to find where it came from...I had heard some stories about Waltz making trips to CA at one point or another...Who is to say that his ore did not come from CAHere are some images of some famous CA ore... https://www.google.com/search?q=16+...hUI94MKHUdUDKkQ9QEINzAH#imgrc=iOq77SujzcHUZM: and https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...1438...0j0i67k1j0i8i30k1j0i24k1.0.zDvvW81MszQ But who can say for certain

 

[wrmickel1]

Ok google Earth it.

Over by the Indian Paint mine.

yeah I get it.

babymick1

 

[nobodie]

Mr. Roberts,
Could you post Brownie Holmes affidavit about the stick pin and match box, like you did on the other forum. Maybe it will help.

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Joe,

Not sure why he's in boulder Canyon, Maybe if I knew where it was it might.

Thanks again Joe,

Don't know why everyone making books just don't say why they added it to the samples in the first place.

Mick,

Page 16, same book, you will find a copy of a Topographic map "showing the locations of lost mine clues", including where Storm found his ore.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Mr. Roberts,
Could you post Brownie Holmes affidavit about the stick pin and match box, like you did on the other forum. Maybe it will help.

nobodie,

Here is the April 1969 Brownie Holmes Affidavit describing the Dutchman ore, how it was obtained and the items crafted from that Dutchman ore.



STATE OF ARIZONA }
County of Maricopa }

BEFORE ME, J Yenerich, a Notary Public in and for the said County, State of Arizona, on this day personally appeared Mr. George B. Holmes, to me well known, and who, after being duly sworn, deposes and says that the following testimony is true to the best of his knowledge.

My name is George Holmes, often known as Brownie Holmes, of Phoenix, Arizona.

My family were Arizona pioneers. My grandfather, R. J. Holmes Sr., landed at the present site of Yuma in 1847. He was from Holmes County, Mississippi, and graduated from college at Ann Arbor, Michigan as a geologist and mineralogist. He found gold at La Paz in 1853 nearly ten years before Pauline Weaver’s “discovery”.

My father was R. J. Holmes, Jr., often known as Dick Holmes, was born at Old Fort Whipple in 1865. He ranched in Bloody Basin, where Holmes Creek and Holmes Canyon were named for him. He was a civilian packer for the Army, having packed for Al Sieber, among others. He married my mother in 1889 in Tempe. I was born in Phoenix in 1892.

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Following heavy rains and floods in February, 1891, in which his adobe fell, Waltz made his home with Mrs. Julia Thomas, a colored woman, near the corner of Jackson and 2nd Avenue in Phoenix. She was married to Emil Thomas, but later married Albert Schaffer. Both Mrs. Thomas and Schaffer were religious mystics.

Waltz died in October, 1891, at Mrs. Thomas’ home. On his deathbed he gave my father a miner’s candle box full of gold ore, which he had under his bed. He also made a lengthy deathbed revelation regarding the history and location of the source of the gold, since called “The Lost Dutchman Mine”. The only people present at this time were Waltz, my father Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts. Mrs. Thomas, delayed in locating a doctor, and the others who claimed to have been present at Waltz’ death, did not enter the scene until later.

Keeping several pieces of the gold for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s store. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.

Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture. A man of integrity, Joe Porterie later became constable, deputy sheriff, and Deputy U. S. Marshall.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglas” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named, and the father of Lew Douglas, the American Ambassador to England under President Truman.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goldman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the J.L. & Co. in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.

In turn, I have presented the matchbox to my friend, ____XXX______ of Apache Junction, Arizona. This affidavit serves as a statement of its historical authenticity, as well as evidence of ownership by Mr. __XXX__.

As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription J. L. & Co. to G. H. H. It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton.

Signature: George Holmes

Subscribed and Sworn to Before Me this, 23rd day of April, A.D. 1969.
J. Yenerich
Notary Public
Maricopa County, Arizona
My commission expires: August 30, 1970

 

[markmar]

markmar,

"Camp Ore" was by FAR the richest sample ore. While Kochera ore and the others consisted of one or two small pieces with a little gold showing, the Camp Ore was a large amount with actual gold content of most of the pieces topping 70% gold to 25% quartz matrix.

These photos give you some idea of the richness of the Camp Ore compared to gold content in say the Kochera sample.


View attachment 1534359

Camp Ore. The piece on the left contains both visible native Gold and native Silver. The piece on the right is 75% gold.



View attachment 1534368

The same piece of Camp Ore 75% Gold from a different angle and light.



View attachment 1534373

Kochera Gold. (R.Newkirk photo)



View attachment 1534376

Gold Stick Pin Dutchman


View attachment 1534377







Matchbox crafted from Dutchman Ore.

Thanks Matthew for your photos . The camp ore is what i was thinking about . I believe how from the first sample with the silver , was made a ring which floated around as has the LDM ore .

 

[JohnWhite]

Some people will say anything at times...I once gave an assayer 4.86 pounds of country rock with wire gold in it...He extracted the wire gold out of the ore and had IT on display in his assay office...He fed me some b.s. about it only having 3 ounces of gold per ton...Oh well...I took his assay with a grain of salt after telling my partner that I believed that he had gotten the wire gold specimens on display from the ore I had given him...I wonder IF he ever found the location that the ore came from...hehehe

And I would not doubt said crooked assayer fed some fancy b.s. to possible investors and milked my ore for all that he could...lol...Thus are some treasure hunters in this world...May they get their just rewards...rofl

 

[nobodie]

Mr. Roberts,
Thank you, I still have some doubts. Like everyone keeps saying Richard Holmes made the match box, but my interpretation is Holmes did not.

 

[Old]

I don’t think Mr. Feldman is excluding the “Camp ore” from his discussion in the clip. It sounds to me like he could be very well including it as a part of the known LDM ores tested against.

When Mr. Feldman talks about the testing he tells us the same gentleman that owns the matchbox also owns other LDM ore samples.

What I get from what he shares is that Vulture mine ore, ore from several Goldfield area mines, and Kochera ore were tested against the known Dutchman samples. Not sample singular as if it was the matchbox only, but sampleS, multiple. What he says tells me that gentleman’s ore samples along with the matchbox was a part of the test. Is that the Camp Ore of which you speak?

Matthew you have me at a disadvantage because obviously you know a lot more about the origin of the “Camp Ore” than I do. Are you saying the Camp Ore is from a different owner than the matchbox and a different source than the candlebox? Or is it one in the same?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I don’t think Mr. Feldman is excluding the “Camp ore” from his discussion in the clip. It sounds to me like he could be very well including it as a part of the known LDM ores tested against.

When Mr. Feldman talks about the testing he tells us the same gentleman that owns the matchbox also owns other LDM ore samples.

What I get from what he shares is that Vulture mine ore, ore from several Goldfield area mines, and Kochera ore were tested against the known Dutchman samples. Not sample singular as if it was the matchbox only, but sampleS, multiple. What he says tells me that gentleman’s ore samples along with the matchbox was a part of the test. Is that the Camp Ore of which you speak?

Matthew you have me at a disadvantage because obviously you know a lot more about the origin of the “Camp Ore” than I do. Are you saying the Camp Ore is from a different owner than the matchbox and a different source than the candlebox? Or is it one in the same?

Hello Old,

The "Camp Ore" was being tested against the known Dutchman Ore just as the Kochera and other samples were.

Actually when all the results were in, all the ores tested could be checked against each other to see what similarities and discrepancies there were between the different ores.

I'm not saying why Ron left the Camp Ore out of the Nugget of Truth video. I have my own opinion but I will not voice it here.

Best to you as always!

Matthew

 

[wrmickel1]

nobodie,

Here is the April 1969 Brownie Holmes Affidavit describing the Dutchman ore, how it was obtained and the items crafted from that Dutchman ore.



STATE OF ARIZONA }
County of Maricopa }

BEFORE ME, J Yenerich, a Notary Public in and for the said County, State of Arizona, on this day personally appeared Mr. George B. Holmes, to me well known, and who, after being duly sworn, deposes and says that the following testimony is true to the best of his knowledge.

My name is George Holmes, often known as Brownie Holmes, of Phoenix, Arizona.

My family were Arizona pioneers. My grandfather, R. J. Holmes Sr., landed at the present site of Yuma in 1847. He was from Holmes County, Mississippi, and graduated from college at Ann Arbor, Michigan as a geologist and mineralogist. He found gold at La Paz in 1853 nearly ten years before Pauline Weaver’s “discovery”.

My father was R. J. Holmes, Jr., often known as Dick Holmes, was born at Old Fort Whipple in 1865. He ranched in Bloody Basin, where Holmes Creek and Holmes Canyon were named for him. He was a civilian packer for the Army, having packed for Al Sieber, among others. He married my mother in 1889 in Tempe. I was born in Phoenix in 1892.

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Following heavy rains and floods in February, 1891, in which his adobe fell, Waltz made his home with Mrs. Julia Thomas, a colored woman, near the corner of Jackson and 2nd Avenue in Phoenix. She was married to Emil Thomas, but later married Albert Schaffer. Both Mrs. Thomas and Schaffer were religious mystics.

Waltz died in October, 1891, at Mrs. Thomas’ home. On his deathbed he gave my father a miner’s candle box full of gold ore, which he had under his bed. He also made a lengthy deathbed revelation regarding the history and location of the source of the gold, since called “The Lost Dutchman Mine”. The only people present at this time were Waltz, my father Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts. Mrs. Thomas, delayed in locating a doctor, and the others who claimed to have been present at Waltz’ death, did not enter the scene until later.

Keeping several pieces of the gold for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s store. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.

Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture. A man of integrity, Joe Porterie later became constable, deputy sheriff, and Deputy U. S. Marshall.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglas” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named, and the father of Lew Douglas, the American Ambassador to England under President Truman.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goldman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the J.L. & Co. in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.

In turn, I have presented the matchbox to my friend, ____XXX______ of Apache Junction, Arizona. This affidavit serves as a statement of its historical authenticity, as well as evidence of ownership by Mr. __XXX__.

As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription J. L. & Co. to G. H. H. It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton.

Signature: George Holmes

Subscribed and Sworn to Before Me this, 23rd day of April, A.D. 1969.
J. Yenerich
Notary Public
Maricopa County, Arizona
My commission expires: August 30, 1970

oh Snap

Why not just say there's know real evidence that any of it is the Dutchman's Gold.
Ohh Julia and company weren't there but they had the clues and Holmes was there but had none of the clues.

Stupid


babymick 1 Hogwash

 

[Old]

Thank you Matthew,

If the matchbox AND the other "LDM" samples are a clear match that goes a long way in setting to rest any doubts on that score. The matchbox ore which took a so journey outside the family matches those items kept by the family. That's definitive. They all match to the same source with a high degree of probability.

But; If I'm correctly putting those pieces of information together.....there's still interesting information in the video clip and the testing. The Kochera ore has a 75% chance of being from the same or a close related source. That's not chicken feed either. It goes a long way in establishing a similarity between the Kochera ore and LDM ore. And; rules out the Goldfield mines and known Western sources.

 

[wrmickel1]

Mr. Roberts,
Could you post Brownie Holmes affidavit about the stick pin and match box, like you did on the other forum. Maybe it will help.

A affidavit what 80/90 years later after the fact, kinda puts that in the file 13 place

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Now brownie denied he wrote the manuscript but some was true, Why do any Take stock in the affidavit

Don't make any sense

babymick1

 

[JohnWhite]

nobodie,

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the J.L. & Co. in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

The above statement, for some silly reason, makes me believe that the jewelry in question may have been manufactured in San Francisco, CA with ore from CA and quite possibly have been used to scam investors into what is now known as the LDM...Who knows

I know that I have been to the real area depicted in the PSM's and can state that IT is located where IT is...lol...And many treasure tales are all one and the same area...hehehe...

And I am not seeking any investors...Nor do I feel as IF I have to prove my claims to anyone...rofl