Arguemant against Moromon stope

[azdave35]

Just going with what Tom K. reported in his article.......Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Goldfield: An Arizona Centennial Treasure

wayne...highgraders probably stole that much....al senner is rumored to have stolen 1000-1200 lbs

 

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[somehiker]

wayne...highgraders probably stole that much....al senner is rumored to have stolen 1000-1200 lbs

Then someone should tell Tom.....
Did Senner smuggle it out in his lunch bucket.....or his long-johns ??

Mine Foreman: " Hey Al, whatcha got in that lunchbox ? "
Al Senner: " Just a leftover ham sandwich, boss."
Foreman: " Looks pretty heavy for nothin but a ham sandwich Al."
Al: " Oh, it ain't the ham that's weighin me down boss. It's the 60 rounds it took me to bring that old boar down, what makes it so heavy."

 

[azdave35]

Then someone should tell Tom.....
Did Senner smuggle it out in his lunch bucket.....or his long-johns ??

Mine Foreman: " Hey Al, whatcha got in that lunchbox ? "
Al Senner: " Just a leftover ham sandwich, boss."
Foreman: " Looks pretty heavy for nothin but a ham sandwich Al."
Al: " Oh, it ain't the ham that's weighin me down boss. It's the 60 rounds it took me to bring that old boar down, what makes it so heavy."

i think al was the foreman...lol

 

[somehiker]

i think al was the foreman...lol

Lousy shot too....apparently
But then again., he could afford the extra ammo.....

 

[azdave35]

Lousy shot too....apparently
But then again., he could afford the extra ammo.....

but he was a pretty fair thief....makes you wonder how many other employees were smuggling gold out

 

[somehiker]

but he was a pretty fair thief....makes you wonder how many other employees were smuggling gold out

If the foreman was doin it, you can bet everyone else was too.
Woulda made for a regular heavy lunch bucket parade at the punch clock.
Makes me wonder how much highgraded ore was purchased by Goldman and other businessmen from what was stolen from the Mammoth and the other known gold mines. And more than a few nice samples probably got passed down to local family descendants, giving them something to show when talk and tall tales of the LDM are in vogue.

 

[sdcfia]

If the foreman was doin it, you can bet everyone else was too.
Woulda made for a regular heavy lunch bucket parade at the punch clock.
Makes me wonder how much highgraded ore was purchased by Goldman and other businessmen from what was stolen from the Mammoth and the other known gold mines. And more than a few nice samples probably got passed down to local family descendants, giving them something to show when talk and tall tales of the LDM are in vogue.

Much of the nice picture rock (specimens, jewelry rock) was high-graded from the old mines. The foremen led the charge, having about as much loyalty in those days to the corporations as folks do today. It's a long-standing tradition, although the workers had to be careful not to get caught and, of course, keep their mouths shut. I saw this and participated myself the very first shift I put in at the Idarado Mine in CO in the 70s. At the beginning of the day, the shifter (foreman) announced, "Bonus day, boys!", and we all helped him clean out some rich quartz vugs discovered the previous shift. The shifter deftly operated the small rock drill and the rest of us cobbled the ore.

At the Idarado, the very best pieces were culled and sold separately, but many pounds of very rich rock was stockpiled in folks' garages, then sold to the Red Chinese about once a year for double the $35 oz set value. Even though it was illegal to own gold then, highgrading was still a tradition, and the miners would not have worked in that mine if not allowed to do it. The Chinese part of the perk came to an end in 1974 when Nixon let the value of gold float worldwide. It wasn't long before it was selling for $200/oz. Just goes to show you how the Chinese have always been ahead of the curve - they bought lots of gold cheap up to 1974. Due to the blatant manipulation in the gold market today, the Chinese and others are still buying it up big time at a more or less delated value. Still ahead of the curve.

 

[azdave35]

If the foreman was doin it, you can bet everyone else was too.
Woulda made for a regular heavy lunch bucket parade at the punch clock.
Makes me wonder how much highgraded ore was purchased by Goldman and other businessmen from what was stolen from the Mammoth and the other known gold mines. And more than a few nice samples probably got passed down to local family descendants, giving them something to show when talk and tall tales of the LDM are in vogue.

thats what i'm saying wayne...if a mine is reported to have produced 3 million..you can bet at least that much and probably more was high graded

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Was anything of Waltz's found in that drift, or just pre-anglo mining equipment ?
There is nothing in the LDM literature about Waltz having found or that he made use of Spanish or Mexican tools

Do we have some reliable list of what was found? Why would Walser have to leave anything behind? Especially if he left on his own terms and didn't plan to return as is said in lore. And if the tools of others were left behind (which would be consistent with being routed by Indians) why wouldn't he use them?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I did not know that, Was it gold in let's say White Quarts.

babymick1

I read somewhere (forgot source but am thinking a geological thing) that the gold in the stope was in quartz and in iron oxide. That makes sence - oxidized pyrite. And there was some lore about some woman that used to clean his clothes complaining about all the iron staining, right?

 

[somehiker]

Much of the nice picture rock (specimens, jewelry rock) was high-graded from the old mines. The foremen led the charge, having about as much loyalty in those days to the corporations as folks do today. It's a long-standing tradition, although the workers had to be careful not to get caught and, of course, keep their mouths shut. I saw this and participated myself the very first shift I put in at the Idarado Mine in CO in the 70s. At the beginning of the day, the shifter (foreman) announced, "Bonus day, boys!", and we all helped him clean out some rich quartz vugs discovered the previous shift. The shifter deftly operated the small rock drill and the rest of us cobbled the ore.

At the Idarado, the very best pieces were culled and sold separately, but many pounds of very rich rock was stockpiled in folks' garages, then sold to the Red Chinese about once a year for double the $35 oz set value. Even though it was illegal to own gold then, highgrading was still a tradition, and the miners would not have worked in that mine if not allowed to do it. The Chinese part of the perk came to an end in 1974 when Nixon let the value of gold float worldwide. It wasn't long before it was selling for $200/oz. Just goes to show you how the Chinese have always been ahead of the curve - they bought lots of gold cheap up to 1974. Due to the blatant manipulation in the gold market today, the Chinese and others are still buying it up big time at a more or less delated value. Still ahead of the curve.

I've never worked in a mine, but have toured and explored a few....gold, silver, nickel,copper and coal....so I know what the ores can look like at the face.
I can also understand how tempting the "personal sampling" of gold, especially picture ore would be, back then or even now. Maybe a bit more complicated to convert it to greenbacks now, with the value hovering around $1,350, though.

 

[somehiker]

Do we have some reliable list of what was found? Why would Walser have to leave anything behind? Especially if he left on his own terms and didn't plan to return as is said in lore. And if the tools of others were left behind (which would be consistent with being routed by Indians) why wouldn't he use them?

I suppose that would depend on whether or not any tools he found were in good enough shape for further use. I've seen modern tools out there, with the wooden handles completely hollowed out by termites though, so I wouldn't assume picks and shovels left behind, would be of much use after more than a few months in that environment.
One of the anecdotes had Waltz saying that he cached some of his equipment in the saddle above his mine, probably where he also said that he tethered his animals, while he worked the mine. As I recall, that's all that has ever been said about his tools. Other accounts speak of claim jumper types watching him and waiting for signs that he was about to head out to his mine. I would assume that meant they were waiting for him to load up a pack animal, for example. He wouldn't have needed very much in the way of supplies, if he were only going as far as the Goldfield area, unless he was planning on staying awhile.

 

[somehiker]

I read somewhere (forgot source but am thinking a geological thing) that the gold in the stope was in quartz and in iron oxide. That makes sence - oxidized pyrite. And there was some lore about some woman that used to clean his clothes complaining about all the iron staining, right?

Yes. Julia Thomas supposedly mentioned that, which would support other statements attributed to Waltz.
That the funnel shaped pit went down on an 18 inch vein of quartz with gold as well as a deposit of hematite, also gold bearing.
The red stained knees of his trousers would come from the hematite IMO.
The Mormon Stope was not a pit mine though.

 

[sdcfia]

I've never worked in a mine, but have toured and explored a few....gold, silver, nickel,copper and coal....so I know what the ores can look like at the face.
I can also understand how tempting the "personal sampling" of gold, especially picture ore would be, back then or even now. Maybe a bit more complicated to convert it to greenbacks now, with the value hovering around $1,350, though.

Yeah, I imagine you'd need to do a bit more footwork nowadays to locate the collectors and jewelers. Not so many assayers around either to prove your values and maybe buy the ore. However, 5,000 years of history indicates that, as a problem to deal with, it'd be better than most others.

 

[somehiker]

Yeah, I imagine you'd need to do a bit more footwork nowadays to locate the collectors and jewelers. Not so many assayers around either to prove your values and maybe buy the ore. However, 5,000 years of history indicates that, as a problem to deal with, it'd be better than most others.

Word's out that the Mexican cartels are buying up all the gold that they can haul away. A very risky sale I'm sure, but I have to admit a great deal of satisfaction would come from pocketing some of the money spent by millennial "progressives" on their favorite recreational crutches.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Yes. Julia Thomas supposedly mentioned that, which would support other statements attributed to Waltz.
That the funnel shaped pit went down on an 18 inch vein of quartz with gold as well as a deposit of hematite, also gold bearing.
The red stained knees of his trousers would come from the hematite IMO.
The Mormon Stope was not a pit mine though.

Wasn't the original mamouth portion started that way, having been discovered at the surface after a big washout?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

How sure are we that the DLM was a pit?

 

[wrmickel1]

How sure are we that the DLM was a pit?

It wasn't till others changed it to fit there suggested Theories

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

How sure are we that the DLM was a pit?

how sure are we that it wasn't a pit?

 

[nobodie]

The way I understand it, there is a pit mine on top of a hill or ridge. Further down the ridge is a tunnel with horses head the one he covered with logs and dirt and a third one a tunnel even further down the ridge closer to the mouth of the canyon. Thus the confusion of what type of mine and the directions. The horse stone map has 3 circle in a circle ( donuts ). Those are the symbols for gold mines. They might be the mines we are all looking for.