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Thread: Waltz and known facts, not stories

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  1. #16
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,573
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by audigger53 View Post
    BTW I did some math, $110,000 per ton of ore would wprk out to just over 550 LBs Troy per Ton of ore. So 1/4 of the "Ton" would be Gold. I haven't heard of any mine that rich. Could it have been one of the bags of not processed ore from the first or second Peralta massacure? Possible, but it is known that 2 trenches, one 50 foot and the other 70 feet long were found in Massacure Canyon. $26 Mill in 1948. The reason I have always remembered it was because he lost 1/2 to Treasure Trove and then had to pay 98% Income tax on the rest. 8 inch leather bags one inch below the surface, found with a WWII mine detector. It made front page news in 1948 all the way to Seal Beach,Calf, where we were living at the time when my brother read it.
    I read it as a "Filler" in the winter of 1963-1964 after they broght back the guy from Hawaii that shot his "Boyhood Friend" over a 2 LB nugget of Iron Pyrite.
    Good point, but check your math, au53. If I'm not mistaken, $110,000/20.67 $/tr oz=5322 tr oz/ton; 5322/14.58=365 lb gold/ton=18% by weight. Hand-picked picture rock could easily run as rich or richer than the "Waltz jewelry ore." Anyone who has seen collectable specimens from underground gold mines will tell you that the matchbox ore, while terrific, was not all that rare. Also, you can't take a specimen sample's assay and assume that all the rock removed from the mine was as rich as the highgrade sample. Most rock removed from even the richest underground mines is barren or close to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by joe
    neither Bob Corbin nor Tom Kollenborn can vouch for the authenticity of the items and documents they saw, only that they saw them
    Exactly. These two gentlemen could only describe what they were shown, not verify its authenticity. The point is, many Dutch hunters likely assumed the documents seen were genuine.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  2. #17
    gr
    Oct 2012
    3,096
    4810 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    From my part , i would been little " afraid " to show a fake document to Misters Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn , just for a chance to want to verify it .
    Oroblanco likes this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart,you will never go wrong.The truth is the truth,no matter how you look at it,and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth . It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  3. #18
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,810
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    From my part , i would been little " afraid " to show a fake document to Misters Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn , just for a chance to want to verify it .
    I have no idea whether the assay shown to Mr. Corbin and Mr. Kollenborn was genuine or fake, but your statement implies that you wouldn't try to "pass off" a fake document to those two gentlemen. What if you believed the assay was genuine but had no verifiable proof?

    I mean what exactly constitutes proving the provenance of a document? Analysis of the ink, paper, etc... as to the time period it was written is one way - but even that has been known to be forged by skilled people. Even if there was a rock solid analysis and chain of custody record going back to the original assayer, you still have the problem of where the gold assayed came from. Was it from under Waltz's bed? Was it some high graded gold from the goldfield area? Who knows?

    With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.
    Last edited by Cubfan64; May 23, 2018 at 04:10 PM.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  4. #19
    us
    Apr 2013
    Huntington Beach California
    744
    3171 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Cubfan64 wrote:

    With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.

    Thank you Cubfan.

    Cubfan has probably posted the most profoundly true statement posted here in many years.

    Everyone has to rely on themselves to decide what they believe and don't believe. They need to do their own research, talk to the old timers themselves and get out in the mountains and hike the trails and back country running down the clues.
    Books are great but if you are sitting around waiting for someone to give you the inside information or for someone to find the mine for you, you need another hobby.
    The old saying, " I don't believe anything I read and only half of what I see", is a good start for searching for the LDM.
    Do your own research, do your own hiking, don't whine because you don't know if an assay report is authentic or not.
    If it's all too much for you, there's always knitting or oragami you could try.

    Matthew

  5. #20
    us
    Executive Director of Nothing

    May 2014
    Not in the can
    Garrett AT GOLD, Garrett ATX
    487
    697 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Bob Corbin put his britches on the same as me, one leg at a time. I really do admire Tom Kollenborn however, but he makes it perfectly clear that there is no vastly rich mine in the Superstitions, in his humble opinion. I think he is more qualified to make that statement than most. Let me state my humble opinion, There is not a rich mine in the Superstitions, completely hidden or otherwise. It's a great place for a stroll. I was just there 3 days ago, strolling in the warm sun. A J has made a lot of tourist dollars from that story. BTW, not for one New York Minute do I believe the illusive Assay report. Sounds like another crazy treasure story to me.
    Last edited by Holyground; May 23, 2018 at 05:06 PM.
    audigger53 and ink like this.

  6. #21
    us
    Mar 2004
    Severn, Maryland
    None
    891
    3151 times
    Cache Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Roberts View Post
    Cubfan64 wrote:

    With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.

    Thank you Cubfan.

    Cubfan has probably posted the most profoundly true statement posted here in many years.

    Everyone has to rely on themselves to decide what they believe and don't believe. They need to do their own research, talk to the old timers themselves and get out in the mountains and hike the trails and back country running down the clues.
    Books are great but if you are sitting around waiting for someone to give you the inside information or for someone to find the mine for you, you need another hobby.
    The old saying, " I don't believe anything I read and only half of what I see", is a good start for searching for the LDM.
    Do your own research, do your own hiking, don't whine because you don't know if an assay report is authentic or not.
    If it's all too much for you, there's always knitting or oragami you could try.

    Matthew
    Amen to that. Filter all that you hear or read though your own filter and make your own choices. I chose to stand back and look at what can be verified on all the different treasure and "Lost mines", and then try and use "Common Sense" rather than dreams of greed. Most of the "Lost Mines" were found long ago by men that did not know of the "Lost Stories", but found the gold by either blind luck or by prospecting washes and streams to go back up until finding where the gold came from.
    I really like the story behind Sugarloaf. Everyone in town was upset with the new assayer because the results were not what they wanted to hear. They took a broken grindstone and knocked off a piece of it and took it to the assayer to test.
    Finally he came out all excited and told them it was rich in Silver. "Hang him!" Even as they took him to the tree he keep saying that he didn't understand why they wanted the sandstone assayed until he did it. They stopped and took him back to his office and he crushed some more of the sandstone and then disolved it and showed them, "See you can see the silver particles falling out of it!" They went back to the man who had the broken grindstone and asked him where he got it. "From a guy in the next town over, he makes them.
    They went over there and asked him where he got his Sandstone. He told them and they then mined the ridge known as Sugarloaf. True story from Arizona.

  7. #22
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,573
    6707 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    It seems likely to me that today's breed of "Dutch hunter" is actually much more addicted to the lore surrounding the legend than an actual search for a mine. That's cool - many folks have specific areas of interest in all sorts of fields that they learn from and build on for a lifetime because ... well, they like it. The LDM gives one an almost endless and sustainable source of history, legend and drama to absorb, along with a group of like-minded colleagues to debate with and a patch of challenging and awesome canyons to connect with. If I lived in AZ, I might even join the fray to some extent, for the fun of it - even though I've not seen any compelling reason to seriously consider pledging significant time and resources actually ground-searching for the "mine." To me, the most intriguing aspect of it all is not so much what parts of the saga people choose to believe, but why they believe them.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  8. #23

    Nov 2013
    132
    308 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by audigger53 View Post
    .... Could it have been one of the bags of not processed ore from the first or second Peralta massacure? ....
    Why does eveyone take the "Peralta" involvement with the LDM saga as the Gospel truth? I have tried to independently verify the existance of the "Peralta" clan (independent from the LDM legend) and the only references to them I can find relate to James Addison Reavis (later named PeraltaReavis) and his two court cases against the U.S. gov't. In the 2nd case, experts proved that the Peralta documents were forgeries inserted into the archive records at Guadalajara, Mexico and Seville, Spain. This has lead me to believe the Peraltas are fiction not fact. If they are in fact real, like most here seem to believe, what proof to their existence have I missed?
    deducer, Bavarian Joe and ink like this.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserves neither and shall lose both -Benjamin Franklin

  9. #24

    Nov 2015
    186
    166 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    It seems likely to me that today's breed of "Dutch hunter" is actually much more addicted to the lore surrounding the legend than an actual search for a mine. That's cool - many folks have specific areas of interest in all sorts of fields that they learn from and build on for a lifetime because ... well, they like it. The LDM gives one an almost endless and sustainable source of history, legend and drama to absorb, along with a group of like-minded colleagues to debate with and a patch of challenging and awesome canyons to connect with. If I lived in AZ, I might even join the fray to some extent, for the fun of it - even though I've not seen any compelling reason to seriously consider pledging significant time and resources actually ground-searching for the "mine." To me, the most intriguing aspect of it all is not so much what parts of the saga people choose to believe, but why they believe them.

    NA, I'm coming down in Dec for my trip to prove the H/P map . See if one of the 4 mines are the Dutchman, the rest will be for another year.
    audigger53 likes this.

  10. #25

    Nov 2013
    132
    308 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    .....
    Another thing. audigger53 makes a good point usually glossed over about Waltz himself. As a career mining man who owned and/or operated a number of claims during his significant career, it's a bit fishy that he lived as such a poor chicken farmer despite allegedly possessing such a rich mine. ....
    I never understood this in my younger days either. Now that I'm almost as old as dirt, I understand.

    Waltz didn't know how long he would live. He knew he would have to live out his natural life on the gold under his bed, since he was too old to go back to the mine. When you get old you'll discover the fear of running out of money leads to very frugal living.
    markmar, azdave35, Loke and 3 others like this.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserves neither and shall lose both -Benjamin Franklin

  11. #26
    us
    Dec 2008
    2,237
    5120 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Baldwin View Post
    I never understood this in my younger days either. Now that I'm almost as old as dirt, I understand.

    Waltz didn't know how long he would live. He knew he would have to live out his natural life on the gold under his bed, since he was too old to go back to the mine. When you get old you'll discover the fear of running out of money leads to very frugal living.
    well said
    audigger53 and Riverbum like this.

  12. #27
    pt
    Sep 2014
    2,573
    6707 times
    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Baldwin View Post
    I never understood this in my younger days either. Now that I'm almost as old as dirt, I understand.

    Waltz didn't know how long he would live. He knew he would have to live out his natural life on the gold under his bed, since he was too old to go back to the mine. When you get old you'll discover the fear of running out of money leads to very frugal living.
    That argument doesn't add up for me. If Waltz knew he had to live out his life on the box of ore he had under his bed, then it sounds to me that he must have known there was no more ore to be had from the "richest mine in the world." This then smells more like "accumulated cache" than "worked mine ore." Applying Occam's Razor to Waltz ("the simplest option is usually the correct answer), I'd say he already had the box of ore with him when he moved to Phoenix. Then your "frugal living" scenario makes perfect sense.

    I'm probably older than you are and we all hope our retirement funds outlive us. I'll guarantee you one thing - even if I was too stove up to work "the richest mine in the world" anymore, I'd damn sure figure out how to sell/partner it if I thought I was going broke. What's he got to lose at that point?
    Holyground, audigger53 and ink like this.
    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  13. #28
    us
    Feb 2011
    Lakeland, Florida
    458
    696 times
    Well when it comes down to it, there was only one man that knew the facts, and he took most, if not all of them, with him to the grave.

    As for how he lived, that was his choice, just because he may or may not been wealthy didn't mean he wanted to live like he was.
    Heck, act rich and someone is going to come looking for what you got, and how you got it.
    The Scarecrow sees all and tells none.

  14. #29
    us
    Dec 2008
    2,237
    5120 times
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    That argument doesn't add up for me. If Waltz knew he had to live out his life on the box of ore he had under his bed, then it sounds to me that he must have known there was no more ore to be had from the "richest mine in the world." This then smells more like "accumulated cache" than "worked mine ore." Applying Occam's Razor to Waltz ("the simplest option is usually the correct answer), I'd say he already had the box of ore with him when he moved to Phoenix. Then your "frugal living" scenario makes perfect sense.

    I'm probably older than you are and we all hope our retirement funds outlive us. I'll guarantee you one thing - even if I was too stove up to work "the richest mine in the world" anymore, I'd damn sure figure out how to sell/partner it if I thought I was going broke. What's he got to lose at that point?
    i dont think most of you realize what it means to be in bad health....it means you would not be able to make it to the mine PERIOD...no if's and's or but's...i have alot of health problems and i know i couldn't make a trip into the mountains..and if waltz was like most miners he would not have trusted anyone enough to send them into the mountains after his gold...and he was near 80 years old...in 1890 that 48 lbs of rich ore would be all he needed for the rest of his life

  15. #30

    Jan 2014
    1,693
    3198 times
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    I'm probably older than you are and we all hope our retirement funds outlive us. I'll guarantee you one thing - even if I was too stove up to work "the richest mine in the world" anymore, I'd damn sure figure out how to sell/partner it if I thought I was going broke. What's he got to lose at that point?
    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    i dont think most of you realize what it means to be in bad health....it means you would not be able to make it to the mine PERIOD...no if's and's or but's...i have alot of health problems and i know i couldn't make a trip into the mountains..and if waltz was like most miners he would not have trusted anyone enough to send them into the mountains after his gold...and he was near 80 years old...in 1890 that 48 lbs of rich ore would be all he needed for the rest of his life
    Good points, but I'd like to point out that Waltz did try to partner up or tried to trust, first Rhiney, then Julia, and and then possibly Dick Holmes as a last resort. If he were healthy and had time, I'm not sure he would have resorted to confiding in those people. My suspicions are that he didn't realize that he was much sicker than he thought, and that death was right at his doorstep.
    sdcfia, audigger53 and Oroblanco like this.

 

 
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