Waltz and known facts, not stories

[audigger53]

There have been so many storys about Waltz and his "Mine", that it is hard to find the facts of the LDM, at least IMO.
Fact he went to the Queen Creek Trading Post for supplies when he had Wiesner as his partner.
Fact he Homesteaded his house just outside of then Phoenix by the Salt River.
Fact he was buried in a Pauper's Grave after he died.
Fact the people that should have had him buried with a marker from the "Gold under his bed", did not.
Fact people that tried to follow him when he went out to his "Mine", either lost his tracts or never came back to Phoenix.
So where is the evidence that he had a really rich mine?
Some of his "Stories" said it was a vein 8 inches wide and a foot or more across.
Was any of his gold under the bed solid gold? To confirm his tale of how rich the mine was?
The Matchbox is pretty but it does not give evidence of a vein that wide, again IMO.
Forget the books about him and his mine, look for facts after he found his mine.
Newspaper articles from back then, assay reports, him buying supplies with gold anything that would show that he had really found a high paying mine. These are what I would believe as facts about his mine.
OK waiting for answers from the people that have done real research on Jacob Waltz. Books don't count unless they included facts that can be proved.
Let the fun begin.

 

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[markmar]

Au

The assay report of the Waltz's candle box ore exists , and i believe is in Clay Worst's possession , but I'm not sure .
Joe Porterie made the assay and he wrote the ore which examined had 110,000 $ gold per ton . Also , Porterie stated how that ore didn't match with the ore from any known mine of that period .

 

[Tiredman]

Lots of bad versions are out there in books. Did discover this with research of Montana Lost treasures.

 

[markmar]

Lots of bad versions are out there in books. Did discover this with research of Montana Lost treasures.

How can you recognize a " bad " version ? I believe you have to know where the spot really is .

 

[audigger53]

Au

The assay report of the Waltz's candle box ore exists , and i believe is in Clay Worst's possession , but I'm not sure .
Joe Porterie made the assay and he wrote the ore which examined had 110,000 $ gold per ton . Also , Porterie stated how that ore didn't match with the ore from any known mine of that period .

Which then brings the question of why no one was arrested for stealing the ore from the box. Who were his Heirs? Was there a will?
How much was in the box?
It was stated that they crushed the ore for the gold. Once that was done, no assay could be made as to the value of the raw ore. again IMHO

 

[markmar]

Which then brings the question of why no one was arrested for stealing the ore from the box. Who were his Heirs? Was there a will?
How much was in the box?
It was stated that they crushed the ore for the gold. Once that was done, no assay could be made as to the value of the raw ore. again IMHO

I believe doesn't matter how the ore specimens from the candle box have been acquired , but the fact were Waltz's . The assay was done for the Goldman brothers who have bought the ore ( in crude form ) from Holmes .
The story told by Bark of seeing Holmes and Gideon crushing ore , could be for any ore and don't exist any connection to the Watz candle box ore , only rumors .

 

[Tiredman]

How can you recognize a " bad " version ? I believe you have to know where the spot really is .

Researching that how to determine when stories fall apart.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

On April 10, 1985 the then Arizona Attorney General, Bob Corbin, wrote and signed a sworn affidavit notarized by Notary Public Kathleen Copas. In that April 10, 1985 affidavit Bob Corbin wrote the following concerning the gold ore Dick Holmes took from Jacob Waltz after Waltz’s death in Phoenix :

This is to certify that I am Bob Corbin, Attorney General of Arizona. I have been held that office since 1979. ..........................
I have seen the report (assay) on the said ore (Dutchman ore) which was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton. Gold was selling for $20.64 an ounce in 1891.
................. With the items were shipping papers indicating some of the ore had been sent to a jewelry company in San Francisco in 1892. A request accompanied it directing the jeweler to make a matchbox, ring, tie pin, and cuff links from the ore. I have also seen the papers shipping this jewelry back to Phoenix. ......................


On April 13, 1985, author and historian Tom Kollenborn wrote and signed a sworn and notarized affidavit concerning the gold ore Dick Holmes took from Jacob Waltz which reads in part :

..... The ore (Dutchman ore) was taken to Goldman's store in Phoenix, Arizona where it was assayed. I have seen the assay report on this ore and this assay report indicates that it was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The assay report further states that the ore assayed at $110,000 a ton and that gold at that time was selling for $20.64 an ounce. I have also seen shipping papers sending the ore to a jewelry company in San Francisco requesting that a matchbox, ring, tie pin and cuff links be made from the ore. .......................



Both of these affidavit can be seen in their entirety in Helen Corbin’s book, The Curse Of The Dutchman's Gold on pages 231 - 234.

 

[audigger53]

On April 10, 1985 the then Arizona Attorney General, Bob Corbin, wrote and signed a sworn affidavit notarized by Notary Public Kathleen Copas. In that April 10, 1985 affidavit Bob Corbin wrote the following concerning the gold ore Dick Holmes took from Jacob Waltz after Waltz’s death in Phoenix :

This is to certify that I am Bob Corbin, Attorney General of Arizona. I have been held that office since 1979. ..........................
I have seen the report (assay) on the said ore (Dutchman ore) which was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton. Gold was selling for $20.64 an ounce in 1891.
................. With the items were shipping papers indicating some of the ore had been sent to a jewelry company in San Francisco in 1892. A request accompanied it directing the jeweler to make a matchbox, ring, tie pin, and cuff links from the ore. I have also seen the papers shipping this jewelry back to Phoenix. ......................


On April 13, 1985, author and historian Tom Kollenborn wrote and signed a sworn and notarized affidavit concerning the gold ore Dick Holmes took from Jacob Waltz which reads in part :

..... The ore (Dutchman ore) was taken to Goldman's store in Phoenix, Arizona where it was assayed. I have seen the assay report on this ore and this assay report indicates that it was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The assay report further states that the ore assayed at $110,000 a ton and that gold at that time was selling for $20.64 an ounce. I have also seen shipping papers sending the ore to a jewelry company in San Francisco requesting that a matchbox, ring, tie pin and cuff links be made from the ore. .......................



Both of these affidavit can be seen in their entirety in Helen Corbin’s book, The Curse Of The Dutchman's Gold on pages 231 - 234.

1892 document still good in 1985. I wonder where it was stored for almost 100 years. Also that works out to 5,500+ Oz. per ton of ore. That still doesn't make sense to me with his living habits with such a "Rich Mine". Again where was the Assay Document stored and by whom during almost 100 years?

 

[Tiredman]

Think what I'm thinking

 

[Holyground]

If Waltz actually had a mine in the Superstitions, it would have been found and developed by a big mining operation. Waltz was sifting the sand for the gold that the Apaches slung out of the burro packs that were confiscated from the Spaniards they killed in a running battle. Some Spaniards went down into what became the massacre grounds, and some went down through La Barge Canyon. You may know the Quarter Circle U Ranch, (aka, Tex Barkley Ranch) is the ranch Jacob Waltz (The Lost Dutchman) purchased supplies from before going into the Superstition Mountains. The ranch is the last confirmed place he visited that is privately owned and has been kept in its original state. Waltz would stop in for supplies and a piece of pie. The owner's wife is on record making that statement of fact. Maybe half of the burro train came down through that area, being slaughtered all the way. Some say that a few of them made it down to where the Peralta Stone Maps were found, and buried them there while fighting off the Apaches. In Waltz's day, all you had to do was search for the bones of burros, and old rotted leather bags in the sand, then collect the soil and go to the nearest water hole and pan out the gold. Now some say Waltz was high grading from the Vulture mine, he may have, but at the rate they were hanging high graders, I doubt that he was at it for very long. They had mounted guards along the wagon road to the mill. That was very, very risky bidness. All of the stories about how much gold he actually had is just stories, and we all know how stories get blown out. Besides, do you think that Waltz would have told everyone that there was gold just laying around? No. He lied about the source to protect it. There is, or was, a very rich mine, but not in the Superstitions. It is, or was, much higher up in the Salt River Mountains. That's where the gold really came from. Besides, Waltz liked being a celebrity in Phoenix. He never had to buy a drink, or a steak. I'm third generation Arizonian. My family intermarried with Apache. My uncle was a 6'4" Apache Korean War Hero. He would go out for 3 or 4 days and then come home with a BIG' OLE BAG of the prettiest gold nuggets you will ever see. We just know these things to be the facts. After all, there were some Apaches out there sifting through the sand to, for whiskey money. All the stories are just comical. Most treasure stories are. But hey, knock yourself out.

P.S. When it comes to Bob Corbin and his statement, well, Bob didn't know where the REAL MINE was either. Nor did Holmes. The Spaniards carried some nice chunks of ore outta them thar mountains...which mountains?

 

[sdcfia]

On April 10, 1985 the then Arizona Attorney General, Bob Corbin, wrote and signed a sworn affidavit notarized by Notary Public Kathleen Copas. ...

... On April 13, 1985, author and historian Tom Kollenborn wrote and signed a sworn and notarized affidavit concerning the gold ore Dick Holmes took from Jacob Waltz ...

... Both of these affidavit can be seen in their entirety in Helen Corbin’s book, The Curse Of The Dutchman's Gold on pages 231 - 234.

It's clear the jewelry items were made from nice cobbled picture rock. These cited affidavits have bolstered the Waltz dogma since they originated with the two highlighted prominent modern Arizonans who believed, or at least promoted, the Waltz saga. If the provenance of the original assay and shipping documents could be verified, it would add more support to the candle box story. However, none of this avoids the fact that the ore could have come from any mining camp in AZ, CO, CA, NM or MX, of which there were many at the time. Picture rock was not an uncommon commodity in those days in the West. If the ore was indeed Waltz's, it may have come from his "richest mine in the world", an ore cache that he found, cobbled highgrade that he accumulated from his years as a miner for his retirement, or by other means.

Another thing. audigger53 makes a good point usually glossed over about Waltz himself. As a career mining man who owned and/or operated a number of claims during his significant career, it's a bit fishy that he lived as such a poor chicken farmer despite allegedly possessing such a rich mine. Sure, he could have been paranoid, but he also could have sold out for plenty of good money, a partnership, etc., lived out his old age more comfortably and polished his image too. Why didn't he? Afraid he would be cheated is the usual explanation. However, being in the game for so many years and presumably savvy to the way things worked, it's likely he knew how to protect his own interests.

 

[cactusjumper]

neither Bob Corbin nor Tom Kollenborn can vouch for the authenticity of the items and documents they saw, only that they saw them. Both of them have said so in private conversations I had with them. You are all aware that a number of documents and considerable "evidence" has been manufactured over the years. Both men have had their eyes opened a little wider, as to the real truth. We have been exposing that truth and the evidence behind it for awhile now.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[audigger53]

It's clear the jewelry items were made from nice cobbled picture rock. These cited affidavits have bolstered the Waltz dogma since they originated with the two highlighted prominent modern Arizonans who believed, or at least promoted, the Waltz saga. If the provenance of the original assay and shipping documents could be verified, it would add more support to the candle box story. However, none of this avoids the fact that the ore could have come from any mining camp in AZ, CO, CA, NM or MX, of which there were many at the time. Picture rock was not an uncommon commodity in those days in the West. If the ore was indeed Waltz's, it may have come from his "richest mine in the world", an ore cache that he found, cobbled highgrade that he accumulated from his years as a miner for his retirement, or by other means.

Another thing. audigger53 makes a good point usually glossed over about Waltz himself. As a career mining man who owned and/or operated a number of claims during his significant career, it's a bit fishy that he lived as such a poor chicken farmer despite allegedly possessing such a rich mine. Sure, he could have been paranoid, but he also could have sold out for plenty of good money, a partnership, etc., lived out his old age more comfortably and polished his image too. Why didn't he? Afraid he would be cheated is the usual explanation. However, being in the game for so many years and presumably savvy to the way things worked, it's likely he knew how to protect his own interests.

BTW I did some math, $110,000 per ton of ore would wprk out to just over 550 LBs Troy per Ton of ore. So 1/4 of the "Ton" would be Gold. I haven't heard of any mine that rich. Could it have been one of the bags of not processed ore from the first or second Peralta massacure? Possible, but it is known that 2 trenches, one 50 foot and the other 70 feet long were found in Massacure Canyon. $26 Mill in 1948. The reason I have always remembered it was because he lost 1/2 to Treasure Trove and then had to pay 98% Income tax on the rest. 8 inch leather bags one inch below the surface, found with a WWII mine detector. It made front page news in 1948 all the way to Seal Beach,Calf, where we were living at the time when my brother read it.
I read it as a "Filler" in the winter of 1963-1964 after they broght back the guy from Hawaii that shot his "Boyhood Friend" over a 2 LB nugget of Iron Pyrite.

 

[markmar]

Au

I believe 1/4 percent gold per ton ore is not something odd concerning the LDM . If you look at the NP ore ( is from another mine in the Superstitions ) which he posted here on Tnet , I believe this percent is not so fantastic thing that someone could think .

 

[sdcfia]

BTW I did some math, $110,000 per ton of ore would wprk out to just over 550 LBs Troy per Ton of ore. So 1/4 of the "Ton" would be Gold. I haven't heard of any mine that rich. Could it have been one of the bags of not processed ore from the first or second Peralta massacure? Possible, but it is known that 2 trenches, one 50 foot and the other 70 feet long were found in Massacure Canyon. $26 Mill in 1948. The reason I have always remembered it was because he lost 1/2 to Treasure Trove and then had to pay 98% Income tax on the rest. 8 inch leather bags one inch below the surface, found with a WWII mine detector. It made front page news in 1948 all the way to Seal Beach,Calf, where we were living at the time when my brother read it.
I read it as a "Filler" in the winter of 1963-1964 after they broght back the guy from Hawaii that shot his "Boyhood Friend" over a 2 LB nugget of Iron Pyrite.

Good point, but check your math, au53. If I'm not mistaken, $110,000/20.67 $/tr oz=5322 tr oz/ton; 5322/14.58=365 lb gold/ton=18% by weight. Hand-picked picture rock could easily run as rich or richer than the "Waltz jewelry ore." Anyone who has seen collectable specimens from underground gold mines will tell you that the matchbox ore, while terrific, was not all that rare. Also, you can't take a specimen sample's assay and assume that all the rock removed from the mine was as rich as the highgrade sample. Most rock removed from even the richest underground mines is barren or close to it.

neither Bob Corbin nor Tom Kollenborn can vouch for the authenticity of the items and documents they saw, only that they saw them

Exactly. These two gentlemen could only describe what they were shown, not verify its authenticity. The point is, many Dutch hunters likely assumed the documents seen were genuine.

 

[markmar]

From my part , i would been little " afraid " to show a fake document to Misters Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn , just for a chance to want to verify it .

 

[Cubfan64]

From my part , i would been little " afraid " to show a fake document to Misters Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn , just for a chance to want to verify it .

I have no idea whether the assay shown to Mr. Corbin and Mr. Kollenborn was genuine or fake, but your statement implies that you wouldn't try to "pass off" a fake document to those two gentlemen. What if you believed the assay was genuine but had no verifiable proof?

I mean what exactly constitutes proving the provenance of a document? Analysis of the ink, paper, etc... as to the time period it was written is one way - but even that has been known to be forged by skilled people. Even if there was a rock solid analysis and chain of custody record going back to the original assayer, you still have the problem of where the gold assayed came from. Was it from under Waltz's bed? Was it some high graded gold from the goldfield area? Who knows?

With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Cubfan64 wrote:

With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.

Thank you Cubfan.

Cubfan has probably posted the most profoundly true statement posted here in many years.

Everyone has to rely on themselves to decide what they believe and don't believe. They need to do their own research, talk to the old timers themselves and get out in the mountains and hike the trails and back country running down the clues.
Books are great but if you are sitting around waiting for someone to give you the inside information or for someone to find the mine for you, you need another hobby.
The old saying, " I don't believe anything I read and only half of what I see", is a good start for searching for the LDM.
Do your own research, do your own hiking, don't whine because you don't know if an assay report is authentic or not.
If it's all too much for you, there's always knitting or oragami you could try.

Matthew

 

[Holyground]

Bob Corbin put his britches on the same as me, one leg at a time. I really do admire Tom Kollenborn however, but he makes it perfectly clear that there is no vastly rich mine in the Superstitions, in his humble opinion. I think he is more qualified to make that statement than most. Let me state my humble opinion, There is not a rich mine in the Superstitions, completely hidden or otherwise. It's a great place for a stroll. I was just there 3 days ago, strolling in the warm sun. A J has made a lot of tourist dollars from that story. BTW, not for one New York Minute do I believe the illusive Assay report. Sounds like another crazy treasure story to me.