Evidence supporting the theory that the LDM is North and not east.

Steve Jenkins

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I live in Cave Creek and have heard folks mention that some local land owners have believed that the LDM is in the Cave Creek mining district since I moved here.

I know there are arguments that it is not and the majority view is that it is not. I am not looking for arguments against I can list many. I am looking for any information that supports the position. I will list a few for starters.

1-many old timers believed that Waltz’ mine was North of Phoenix both while he was alive and in the first few years after his death. Waltz usually left Phoenix as discretly as possible and traveled east when heading out to his mine. I have heard he came back into Phoenix from the north and traveled straight down central street to the assay office on his return.

2- in the early days after his death and before all the books were published many of the first generation of Dutch hunters traveled north to the Cave Creek mining district in search of his mine. One of these was Jim Bark of the Bark notes, one of the very first writings involving the LDM. At one time he believed the LDM was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay Ranch just Northeast of modern day Cave Creek which was located roughly in the middle of the Cave Creek Camp Creek mining District.

As a result of Jim’s interest in the area he developed a relationship with Perry Sears and eventually became a hand on the ranch. It was here Jim learned the ranching skills to ultimately buy an interest in and run his own ranch in the Superstions. Jim owned an interest in one of the ranches that made up the Barkley operation. Jim ultimately married Perry Sear’s sister Lena. It was Lena’s disdain with the heat of Central Arizona summers that caused them to move to California.

3- when Waltz was alive the Superstition range ran much further north. The north half was renamed the McDowels after the fort after Jacob Waltz died.

4- Waltz mentioned the “Old Military” road in one of his clues. The military did not routinely travel through what we now call the Suoerstions. They may have traveled through there as needed but not routinely. The “New military Road” is what is now Cave Creek road. It was built to streamline the support and supplies between Ft McDowel and Ft Whipple. It passes right by what is now known as the Sears-Kay ruins, a Hohokom Indian ruin that was once on Ranch property. The “Old Military road” was an ancient Pima footpath that the Calvery began using in interactions with the Pima and later as a supply route between the two forts before the new road was completed. The old road passed roughly along the road known today as Pima Road. Back in the day it passed through the Sears-Kay ranch. Today it terminates at the intersection of Cave Creek road aka the new military road just northwest of the town of Cave Creek and just a few miles from the Sears- Kay ruin.

5- one of the clues left by Waltz was Black Mesa. While the Supers has a Black Mesa the Cave Creek area also had a Mesa called Black Mesa, both then and now.

6- Waltz spoke of the Needle not Weavers Needle. Pinacle Road is called that because of Pinacle Peak. Pinacle Peak is in plane view over long parts of the Old Military road, the new military road and the hill on which the Sears Kay Ruin sits on. Back in the day Pinacle Peak was called “Miners Needle.”

7- Waltz spoke of a “Thunder God” an archeological structure worshiped by the Apache. The most prominent object one sees as they approach the trail leading to the Sears-Kay ruin is an unusual and large stone object that looks like the head or a great warrior. It was revered by the Apache.

8- Waltz spoke of a Spanish arastra. There is or was remains of an old arastra on what was once Sears- Kay property.

9- the geology of the area is ideal for gold. The mountains to the west of the new military road are veined with Quartz and the washes that run down from them were commonly paned for gold and most of them have mining roads alongside that head up to former mines.

10- “no miner would look for my mine where it is”or something to that affect.
 

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Steve Jenkins

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Hundreds of small mines were located to the left of the new military road and almost none were located immediately to the right when traveling north. This is because the geology changes. To the left quartz is prominent. To the right in the area of the Sears Kay ruin is nearly no quartz and a lot of iron. The line between the two geologists is directly underneath the peak of the hill that Sears-Kay sits on.
 

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Steve Jenkins

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46BDC4BD-B785-4690-8C5C-573576C42A83.jpeg

One of the clues of Jacob Waltz is the mention of El Sombrero, this is a photo I took in the Camp Creek wash which is in the Cave Creek/Camp Creek mining district. This wash runs right by the Sears-Kay ranch house which is the ranch that many early Dutch hunters believed the mine was located on. It is not far from the Miners Needle or the local Thunder God. I can post photos of both after my next trip out if folks are interested.
 

Cubfan64

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View attachment 1629416

One of the clues of Jacob Waltz is the mention of El Sombrero, this is a photo I took in the Camp Creek wash which is in the Cave Creek/Camp Creek mining district. This wash runs right by the Sears-Kay ranch house which is the ranch that many early Dutch hunters believed the mine was located on. It is not far from the Miners Needle or the local Thunder God. I can post photos of both after my next trip out if folks are interested.

Whether I agree with your theories or not, I'll be the first to admit that looks far more like a Sombrero than any other photo's I've seen to date.
 

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Steve Jenkins

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Sep 3, 2018
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Cave Creek, Az
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Whether I agree with your theories or not, I'll be the first to admit that looks far more like a Sombrero than any other photo's I've seen to date.

Please understand that I am not convinced of this myself but many early folks believed it was here. I know there are problems with the position that the mine is located here and know the arguments and some of them are strong ones.

Having said that, Jim Bark searched both this area and the Supers for the LDM. We know he was vested enough in the Supers to have bought a ranch out there and was perhaps at least partially motivated by his interest in the LDM.

He also spent considerable time in the area I am discussing. If it was here he felt it was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay ranch. It was as a result of his searching this property that he met Perry Sears, the ranch owner.

He married Perry’s sister who became Lena Bark.

Jim had his ear closer to the ground than anyone alive today. He knew personally Jacob Waltz, Thomas, and all the others that were around Jacob before and when he died.

Well researched books are nice but an argument could be made that those closer to the action had a picture we do not.
 

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Steve Jenkins

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For those not familiar with the area, I can walk from this location to the Sears-Kay Ranch house.

I have not, and don’t want to but I could. I have been to every site that I will likely post photos of.
 

Cubfan64

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Please understand that I am not convinced of this myself but many early folks believed it was here. I know there are problems with the position that the mine is located here and know the arguments and some of them are strong ones.

Having said that, Jim Bark searched both this area and the Supers for the LDM. We know he was vested enough in the Supers to have bought a ranch out there and was perhaps at least partially motivated by his interest in the LDM.

He also spent considerable time in the area I am discussing. If it was here he felt it was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay ranch. It was as a result of his searching this property that he met Perry Sears, the ranch owner.

He married Perry’s sister who became Lena Bark.

Jim had his ear closer to the ground than anyone alive today. He knew personally Jacob Waltz, Thomas, and all the others that were around Jacob before and when he died.

Well researched books are nice but an argument could be made that those closer to the action had a picture we do not.

Steve,

The thing that keeps sticking in my head is then why did Julia and Rhinehart Petrasch head east from Phoenix in their searches? An argument can be made that both of them were "closer to the action" than Bark. They must have had a reason for going where they did.
 

wrmickel1

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Steve,

The thing that keeps sticking in my head is then why did Julia and Rhinehart Petrasch head east from Phoenix in their searches? An argument can be made that both of them were "closer to the action" than Bark. They must have had a reason for going where they did.

They didn't they headed North on the Trail with a wagon, left the trail somewhere headed towards the main mountain left there wagon and Camped for the night.

Babymick1 ( Your reading the wrong stuff)
 

wrmickel1

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Please understand that I am not convinced of this myself but many early folks believed it was here. I know there are problems with the position that the mine is located here and know the arguments and some of them are strong ones.

Having said that, Jim Bark searched both this area and the Supers for the LDM. We know he was vested enough in the Supers to have bought a ranch out there and was perhaps at least partially motivated by his interest in the LDM.

He also spent considerable time in the area I am discussing. If it was here he felt it was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay ranch. It was as a result of his searching this property that he met Perry Sears, the ranch owner.

He married Perry’s sister who became Lena Bark.

Jim had his ear closer to the ground than anyone alive today. He knew personally Jacob Waltz, Thomas, and all the others that were around Jacob before and when he died.

Well researched books are nice but an argument could be made that those closer to the action had a picture we do not.

Steve 99 percent no to this Area, Waltz simply could of told Julia its
on the Sears Ranch. Or near. Probably a well known place at the time.

Babymick1
 

Loke

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The first Gold Hill mine (just east of the ranch) was discovered in 1873 - so yes, the location was known by the time Waltz died.
 

wrmickel1

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So that takes this spot off map.
lets move East Goldfield 11 million Dollar mine. Right where Julia and gang passed over.
Its looking like a Top contender, But wait it's in a stream bed and not a God Aweful rocky place and when found they described it as possible Spanish in origin with very old Timbers. Waltz's timbers would have looked bran New. No clues fit
this spot.

Goldfield drops out at 20 percent chance of being the LDM. The Wasp and the others there to.

All the others south of Goldfield rank a 0 percent chance.

Babymick1 ( were gonna have to go east and North of Goldfield)
 

Cubfan64

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They didn't they headed North on the Trail with a wagon, left the trail somewhere headed towards the main mountain left there wagon and Camped for the night.

Babymick1 ( Your reading the wrong stuff)

Huh... shows what I know - I always thought the Superstition Mountains were east of Phoenix. :icon_scratch:
 

sgtfda

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Garmans uncle sold his farm in Lancaster Pa. Had a new wagon with a stash spot under the seat for his money. Traveling to California he stopped at Waltz's farm to rest up. Waltz attempted to talk him into taking him in his wagon to pick up a stash. Garmans uncle did not trust him he said Waltz was a bit of a nutball and acted crazy.
For what it's worth.
 

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Steve Jenkins

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I will try to get out to the area to take more photos today or tomorrow. It will take a bit of hiking and I woke up this am with a sore back and am struggling a bit or I would do it today for sure. I was run over by a car in the late seventies and my back has some degree of pain daily and it usually does not limit me that much but as the story goes I have good and bad days and today is of the second type.
 

Cubfan64

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Garmans uncle sold his farm in Lancaster Pa. Had a new wagon with a stash spot under the seat for his money. Traveling to California he stopped at Waltz's farm to rest up. Waltz attempted to talk him into taking him in his wagon to pick up a stash. Garmans uncle did not trust him he said Waltz was a bit of a nutball and acted crazy.
For what it's worth.

You reminded me that I have a lot of work to do transcribing Greg's interview with Garman - I need to get back on that!!!
 

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Steve Jenkins

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Steve,

The thing that keeps sticking in my head is then why did Julia and Rhinehart Petrasch head east from Phoenix in their searches? An argument can be made that both of them were "closer to the action" than Bark. They must have had a reason for going where they did.

This is and always will be the main reason why I have discounted the Sears-Kay area all these years. I am not sold on this area myself but I am very familiar with the area and the rumors and why. I live minutes from here, know owners of ex mine property in the area personally, and give Jeep tours in the area for a living. During those tours I have never promoted this area as a possible site for the LDM but have pointed out most of the things I will photograph in the next few days without mentioning their relationship to the LDM.

Mining was going strong by the time the location became a town in 1870. The town came about as a result of mining and ranching came about to support the miners. The Old Military road runs through the area and part of the motivation for the new military road was to provide easy access to the area to support the locals from Apache attacks which were common. Both roads feature prominently in this account.

This area did not have a dozen mines, it had hundreds of small mines and the population of the area grew so fast that it rivaled and at times expeeded that of Phoenix all because of mining.

This area is just a little over half the distance from Waltz’s place in Phoenix compared to the Supers. When he returned from his trips he was known to return from the North and run the length of Central st which lines up almost perfectly with Cave Creek road aka the new military road. If one researches Military roads in through the Supers you wont find much because the military did not regularly conduct operations through them. They may have ventured into the area on specific occasions for specific reasons but not enough to call the path they took the military road.

This area was “the”area for gold mining when Waltz was alive and everybody interested in gold in Phoenix at that time knew it.

None of us knows exactly what Waltz told Julia et al, his sick he was at the time, or what his motivation was. We only assume we know. Same for what he told Dick Holmes.

I have said this already but most of the knowledge we think we have has come from well researched books many of which were writtten close to a century after the fact. Waltz did not write a book. He did not draw a map. Those all came later. What Waltz did do is leave a series of clues all of which could be scrathed out on a bar napkin.

One might ask how all those book pages could evolve from that? Much of those pages are based on things that came after the fact as a result of unsuccessful searches.

Most of today’s experts know that Jim Bark bought the ranch through which most of the Dutch hunters passsed through over the years to search for the LDM and later that ranch was owned by Tex Barkley. Jim was a serious Dutch hunter and he covered his bases in both areas. He gave up searching in both and moved to California in the early 1900’s.

I don’t know why he considered the Cave Creek area such a string possibility but the evidence suggests that he did. His ear was much closer to the ground at a time when the trail was still fresh than any of us including those of us that have written books.

One last thought before I quit blabbering. I know you can not convince an atheist about god on the internet, or swing a voter left or right. I am not trying to do that. I am trying to educate those who do not know about the fact that many of Waltz’s contemporaries looked north and not east both before and after he left his clues. Many of those clues reinforced that choice and not excluded it. In my opinion this information is worthy of knowing. Many or most may disagree. I knew that when I started the post. This post is for those that might want to know what is out there. It is not a religious crusade, at least not for me. I am aware of the strengths and weaknesses of both arguments. Most are not though because the bases of their knowledge comes from books that don’t have this information.
 

wrmickel1

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Garmans uncle sold his farm in Lancaster Pa. Had a new wagon with a stash spot under the seat for his money. Traveling to California he stopped at Waltz's farm to rest up. Waltz attempted to talk him into taking him in his wagon to pick up a stash. Garmans uncle did not trust him he said Waltz was a bit of a nutball and acted crazy.
For what it's worth.

Interesting,

Waltz tells two people away to get there using a wagon or buggy, Julia used one and I believe they said it was because she was a woman with little experience, Or the hole trip could mostly be done easily and Waltz never ventured to far into the range.

Babymick1
 

markmar

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Steve Jenkins

You wrote in your first post :
"
5- one of the clues left by Waltz was Black Mesa. While the Supers has a Black Mesa the Cave Creek area also had a Mesa called Black Mesa, both then and now.

6- Waltz spoke of the Needle not Weavers Needle. Pinacle Road is called that because of Pinacle Peak. Pinacle Peak is in plane view over long parts of the Old Military road, the new military road and the hill on which the Sears Kay Ruin sits on. Back in the day Pinacle Peak was called “Miners Needle.”

7- Waltz spoke of a “Thunder God” an archeological structure worshiped by the Apache. The most prominent object one sees as they approach the trail leading to the Sears-Kay ruin is an unusual and large stone object that looks like the head or a great warrior. It was revered by the Apache.

8- Waltz spoke of a Spanish arastra. There is or was remains of an old arastra on what was once Sears- Kay property. "

Can you tell us what are the sources for those Waltz's clues ?
 

markmar

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A crop of a real pic which shows the Native warrior head close to the LDM site . There are two stone heads/profiles on that mountain . The Native Indian warrior head and the Perfil mapa head , which are " looking " at each other from about 100 yards away . When you see the one , can't see the other . These two clues were used separately in different stories , and sometimes were confused . Are like the Waltz's clues for the LDM . Waltz gave clues for two different mines which are on the same mountainside . The most were for the LDM placer with tunnel below and the other for the incline shaft "quartz " mine .

Indian warrior profile.jpg
 

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