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Thread: Evidence supporting the theory that the LDM is North and not east.

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  1. #1
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting

    Evidence supporting the theory that the LDM is North and not east.

    I live in Cave Creek and have heard folks mention that some local land owners have believed that the LDM is in the Cave Creek mining district since I moved here.

    I know there are arguments that it is not and the majority view is that it is not. I am not looking for arguments against I can list many. I am looking for any information that supports the position. I will list a few for starters.

    1-many old timers believed that Waltz’ mine was North of Phoenix both while he was alive and in the first few years after his death. Waltz usually left Phoenix as discretly as possible and traveled east when heading out to his mine. I have heard he came back into Phoenix from the north and traveled straight down central street to the assay office on his return.

    2- in the early days after his death and before all the books were published many of the first generation of Dutch hunters traveled north to the Cave Creek mining district in search of his mine. One of these was Jim Bark of the Bark notes, one of the very first writings involving the LDM. At one time he believed the LDM was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay Ranch just Northeast of modern day Cave Creek which was located roughly in the middle of the Cave Creek Camp Creek mining District.

    As a result of Jim’s interest in the area he developed a relationship with Perry Sears and eventually became a hand on the ranch. It was here Jim learned the ranching skills to ultimately buy an interest in and run his own ranch in the Superstions. Jim owned an interest in one of the ranches that made up the Barkley operation. Jim ultimately married Perry Sear’s sister Lena. It was Lena’s disdain with the heat of Central Arizona summers that caused them to move to California.

    3- when Waltz was alive the Superstition range ran much further north. The north half was renamed the McDowels after the fort after Jacob Waltz died.

    4- Waltz mentioned the “Old Military” road in one of his clues. The military did not routinely travel through what we now call the Suoerstions. They may have traveled through there as needed but not routinely. The “New military Road” is what is now Cave Creek road. It was built to streamline the support and supplies between Ft McDowel and Ft Whipple. It passes right by what is now known as the Sears-Kay ruins, a Hohokom Indian ruin that was once on Ranch property. The “Old Military road” was an ancient Pima footpath that the Calvery began using in interactions with the Pima and later as a supply route between the two forts before the new road was completed. The old road passed roughly along the road known today as Pima Road. Back in the day it passed through the Sears-Kay ranch. Today it terminates at the intersection of Cave Creek road aka the new military road just northwest of the town of Cave Creek and just a few miles from the Sears- Kay ruin.

    5- one of the clues left by Waltz was Black Mesa. While the Supers has a Black Mesa the Cave Creek area also had a Mesa called Black Mesa, both then and now.

    6- Waltz spoke of the Needle not Weavers Needle. Pinacle Road is called that because of Pinacle Peak. Pinacle Peak is in plane view over long parts of the Old Military road, the new military road and the hill on which the Sears Kay Ruin sits on. Back in the day Pinacle Peak was called “Miners Needle.”

    7- Waltz spoke of a “Thunder God” an archeological structure worshiped by the Apache. The most prominent object one sees as they approach the trail leading to the Sears-Kay ruin is an unusual and large stone object that looks like the head or a great warrior. It was revered by the Apache.

    8- Waltz spoke of a Spanish arastra. There is or was remains of an old arastra on what was once Sears- Kay property.

    9- the geology of the area is ideal for gold. The mountains to the west of the new military road are veined with Quartz and the washes that run down from them were commonly paned for gold and most of them have mining roads alongside that head up to former mines.

    10- “no miner would look for my mine where it is”or something to that affect.
    Last edited by Steve Jenkins; Sep 06, 2018 at 04:45 PM.
    Loke and Azquester like this.

  2. #2
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Hundreds of small mines were located to the left of the new military road and almost none were located immediately to the right when traveling north. This is because the geology changes. To the left quartz is prominent. To the right in the area of the Sears Kay ruin is nearly no quartz and a lot of iron. The line between the two geologists is directly underneath the peak of the hill that Sears-Kay sits on.
    Azquester likes this.

  3. #3
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	46BDC4BD-B785-4690-8C5C-573576C42A83.jpeg 
Views:	227 
Size:	256.2 KB 
ID:	1629416

    One of the clues of Jacob Waltz is the mention of El Sombrero, this is a photo I took in the Camp Creek wash which is in the Cave Creek/Camp Creek mining district. This wash runs right by the Sears-Kay ranch house which is the ranch that many early Dutch hunters believed the mine was located on. It is not far from the Miners Needle or the local Thunder God. I can post photos of both after my next trip out if folks are interested.

  4. #4
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,810
    2193 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Jenkins View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	46BDC4BD-B785-4690-8C5C-573576C42A83.jpeg 
Views:	227 
Size:	256.2 KB 
ID:	1629416

    One of the clues of Jacob Waltz is the mention of El Sombrero, this is a photo I took in the Camp Creek wash which is in the Cave Creek/Camp Creek mining district. This wash runs right by the Sears-Kay ranch house which is the ranch that many early Dutch hunters believed the mine was located on. It is not far from the Miners Needle or the local Thunder God. I can post photos of both after my next trip out if folks are interested.
    Whether I agree with your theories or not, I'll be the first to admit that looks far more like a Sombrero than any other photo's I've seen to date.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  5. #5
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Whether I agree with your theories or not, I'll be the first to admit that looks far more like a Sombrero than any other photo's I've seen to date.
    Please understand that I am not convinced of this myself but many early folks believed it was here. I know there are problems with the position that the mine is located here and know the arguments and some of them are strong ones.

    Having said that, Jim Bark searched both this area and the Supers for the LDM. We know he was vested enough in the Supers to have bought a ranch out there and was perhaps at least partially motivated by his interest in the LDM.

    He also spent considerable time in the area I am discussing. If it was here he felt it was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay ranch. It was as a result of his searching this property that he met Perry Sears, the ranch owner.

    He married Perry’s sister who became Lena Bark.

    Jim had his ear closer to the ground than anyone alive today. He knew personally Jacob Waltz, Thomas, and all the others that were around Jacob before and when he died.

    Well researched books are nice but an argument could be made that those closer to the action had a picture we do not.
    cactusjumper and Azquester like this.

  6. #6
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    For those not familiar with the area, I can walk from this location to the Sears-Kay Ranch house.

    I have not, and don’t want to but I could. I have been to every site that I will likely post photos of.

  7. #7
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,810
    2193 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Jenkins View Post
    Please understand that I am not convinced of this myself but many early folks believed it was here. I know there are problems with the position that the mine is located here and know the arguments and some of them are strong ones.

    Having said that, Jim Bark searched both this area and the Supers for the LDM. We know he was vested enough in the Supers to have bought a ranch out there and was perhaps at least partially motivated by his interest in the LDM.

    He also spent considerable time in the area I am discussing. If it was here he felt it was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay ranch. It was as a result of his searching this property that he met Perry Sears, the ranch owner.

    He married Perry’s sister who became Lena Bark.

    Jim had his ear closer to the ground than anyone alive today. He knew personally Jacob Waltz, Thomas, and all the others that were around Jacob before and when he died.

    Well researched books are nice but an argument could be made that those closer to the action had a picture we do not.
    Steve,

    The thing that keeps sticking in my head is then why did Julia and Rhinehart Petrasch head east from Phoenix in their searches? An argument can be made that both of them were "closer to the action" than Bark. They must have had a reason for going where they did.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  8. #8
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    1,434
    1199 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Steve,

    The thing that keeps sticking in my head is then why did Julia and Rhinehart Petrasch head east from Phoenix in their searches? An argument can be made that both of them were "closer to the action" than Bark. They must have had a reason for going where they did.
    They didn't they headed North on the Trail with a wagon, left the trail somewhere headed towards the main mountain left there wagon and Camped for the night.

    Babymick1 ( Your reading the wrong stuff)

  9. #9
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    1,434
    1199 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Jenkins View Post
    Please understand that I am not convinced of this myself but many early folks believed it was here. I know there are problems with the position that the mine is located here and know the arguments and some of them are strong ones.

    Having said that, Jim Bark searched both this area and the Supers for the LDM. We know he was vested enough in the Supers to have bought a ranch out there and was perhaps at least partially motivated by his interest in the LDM.

    He also spent considerable time in the area I am discussing. If it was here he felt it was on property that was part of the Sears-Kay ranch. It was as a result of his searching this property that he met Perry Sears, the ranch owner.

    He married Perry’s sister who became Lena Bark.

    Jim had his ear closer to the ground than anyone alive today. He knew personally Jacob Waltz, Thomas, and all the others that were around Jacob before and when he died.

    Well researched books are nice but an argument could be made that those closer to the action had a picture we do not.
    Steve 99 percent no to this Area, Waltz simply could of told Julia its
    on the Sears Ranch. Or near. Probably a well known place at the time.

    Babymick1

  10. #10
    no
    Mar 2010
    Republic of Texas
    547
    1202 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    The first Gold Hill mine (just east of the ranch) was discovered in 1873 - so yes, the location was known by the time Waltz died.
    A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine

  11. #11
    us
    Nov 2011
    Jamestown ND
    Garrett 2500
    1,434
    1199 times
    Old Jesuits and Spainish Mines
    So that takes this spot off map.
    lets move East Goldfield 11 million Dollar mine. Right where Julia and gang passed over.
    Its looking like a Top contender, But wait it's in a stream bed and not a God Aweful rocky place and when found they described it as possible Spanish in origin with very old Timbers. Waltz's timbers would have looked bran New. No clues fit
    this spot.

    Goldfield drops out at 20 percent chance of being the LDM. The Wasp and the others there to.

    All the others south of Goldfield rank a 0 percent chance.

    Babymick1 ( were gonna have to go east and North of Goldfield)

  12. #12
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,810
    2193 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by wrmickel1 View Post
    They didn't they headed North on the Trail with a wagon, left the trail somewhere headed towards the main mountain left there wagon and Camped for the night.

    Babymick1 ( Your reading the wrong stuff)
    Huh... shows what I know - I always thought the Superstition Mountains were east of Phoenix.
    PotBelly Jim, deducer and alan m like this.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  13. #13

    Feb 2004
    Mesa Arizona
    2,283
    3658 times
    Garmans uncle sold his farm in Lancaster Pa. Had a new wagon with a stash spot under the seat for his money. Traveling to California he stopped at Waltz's farm to rest up. Waltz attempted to talk him into taking him in his wagon to pick up a stash. Garmans uncle did not trust him he said Waltz was a bit of a nutball and acted crazy.
    For what it's worth.
    PotBelly Jim likes this.

  14. #14
    us
    Sep 2018
    Cave Creek, Az
    58
    60 times
    Relic Hunting
    I will try to get out to the area to take more photos today or tomorrow. It will take a bit of hiking and I woke up this am with a sore back and am struggling a bit or I would do it today for sure. I was run over by a car in the late seventies and my back has some degree of pain daily and it usually does not limit me that much but as the story goes I have good and bad days and today is of the second type.

  15. #15
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,810
    2193 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by sgtfda View Post
    Garmans uncle sold his farm in Lancaster Pa. Had a new wagon with a stash spot under the seat for his money. Traveling to California he stopped at Waltz's farm to rest up. Waltz attempted to talk him into taking him in his wagon to pick up a stash. Garmans uncle did not trust him he said Waltz was a bit of a nutball and acted crazy.
    For what it's worth.
    You reminded me that I have a lot of work to do transcribing Greg's interview with Garman - I need to get back on that!!!
    deducer likes this.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

 

 
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