Now that the stone maps are out of the way, no movie/series....what's next?

[markmar]

Travis knew exactly where to look for the stone tablets , but not because they were buried by him . There was a background of the real story which we have not the proper info to debunk it for the moment . We have to find out the first people who sold the gold bars to another people and those gave them to another people who searched in the Supers .

 

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[Al D]

Travis knew exactly where to look for the stone tablets , but not because they were buried by him . There was a background of the real story which we have not the proper info to debunk it for the moment . We have to find out the first people who sold the gold bars to another people and those gave them to another people who searched in the Supers .

I think the question that should be asked is, “How did Travis know that the stone maps pertained to the Superstitions”?

 

[markmar]

I think the question that should be asked is, “How did Travis know that the stone maps pertained to the Superstitions”?

I believe , from a/the guy/s who buried them there .

 

[somehiker]

These are all valid points. I still would have asked her, even as an adult, about what happened that day or what she knew of what happened on that day. As you and all other parents know- it's never a good thing to underestimate a child's ability to decipher any adult conversation they overhear or are in the presence of. And over the years, she had probably picked up quite a bit of information.

I get what you're saying, but considering the dissension within the two branches of the family over the years, what she could have remembered would surely have been influenced by those pro-con arguments made by the adult members of the family. I do think it's possible that Peck could have attempted to communicate with Janie later on, but was ether rebuffed or didn't receive any answers contrary to what he already considered accurate.

 

[somehiker]

In the Chicomostoc pic , I was talking about the mouth of the mountain lion ( not jaguar ) which has the shape of the last part of the trail from the stone map .
Don't forget Injunbro ( tnet member ) wrote how he and his party did a ceremony at the sacred cave in the Supers , which supposed to be the cave from where the ancient people came out when they stopped to be cave dwellers .

I agree with you're interpretation of the Duran illustration as showing the open mouth of a mountain lion,abstract though it is, but other than being a general clue as to location, mountain lions range from Alaska all the way down to Argentina, so it's not definitive IMO. Petroglyphs of both big cats can be found throughout the Southwest, with the Jaguar (sometimes called the "Mexican Lion") and it's highly prized pelt mentioned in many native historical accounts.

I don't recall Injunbro's mention of a visit to a sacred cave somewhere out there.
But who knows ? There is no shortage of caves, and any one of them could be sacred to one or more of the tribes of Arizona I guess.

 

[azdave35]

I agree with you're interpretation of the Duran illustration as showing the open mouth of a mountain lion,abstract though it is, but other than being a general clue as to location, mountain lions range from Alaska all the way down to Argentina, so it's not definitive IMO. Petroglyphs of both big cats can be found throughout the Southwest, with the Jaguar (sometimes called the "Mexican Lion") and it's highly prized pelt mentioned in many native historical accounts.

I don't recall Injunbro's mention of a visit to a sacred cave somewhere out there.
But who knows ? There is no shortage of caves, and any one of them could be sacred to one or more of the tribes of Arizona I guess.

go watch the in search of episode on the lost dutchman mine with leonard nimoy

 

[coazon de oro]

I think the question that should be asked is, “How did Travis know that the stone maps pertained to the Superstitions”?

He didn't, it was just a good guess, since they were found close to them. He just never could understand how to follow them.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

I get what you're saying, but considering the dissension within the two branches of the family over the years, what she could have remembered would surely have been influenced by those pro-con arguments made by the adult members of the family. I do think it's possible that Peck could have attempted to communicate with Janie later on, but was ether rebuffed or didn't receive any answers contrary to what he already considered accurate.

It's also possible that Peck got the same answer as Larry. When Larry Webb contacted Janie, and asked her about the stone maps, she told him that Travis made them. So it was pointless to ask where, and how he found them.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

go watch the in search of episode on the lost dutchman mine with leonard nimoy

It's likely I watched that episode back when it was first broadcast in the late 70's.
I've also sat through it a couple of times since my first visit to the Sups in 1995.
And just as likely I'd seen "Lust for Gold" at one of the Saturday "Cowboy" matinees we went to regularly as kids in the 50's.
Gotta say, I never even imagined I would wind up involved in all of this myself.
It's been very interesting....to say the least.

That episode however, does describe the cave as having walls lined or perhaps coated with gold.
If there is some factual basis for such a place, perhaps it's not geological (natural/gold ore), but rather a decorative application.
The color pigments used by Aztec artists were very specific in a symbolical sense, yellow being the natural choice for gold or other things directly related to the Sun. This also applied to both pre and post conquest codices, although there was a period following the conquest where many pigments were in short supply regionally due to European demand. This may have been a problem during the siege of Tenochtitlan as well, and is the reason for some of their work that survived the "burnings" having limited color, or none at all.

This illustration in particular, makes me wonder......



.... a golden lining would certainly brighten things up in there

 

[azdave35]

It's likely I watched that episode back when it was first broadcast in the late 70's.
I've also sat through it a couple of times since my first visit to the Sups in 1995.
Also likely I'd seen "Lust for Gold" at one of the Saturday "Cowboy" matinees we went regularly as kids in the 50's.
Gotta say, I never even imagined I would wind up involved in all of this myself.
It's been very interesting....to say the least.

lol..its actually on youtube if you want to see it again

 

[somehiker]

Yes it is. And it's a popular video on several youtube sites.
Where do you think the producers got the "sacred cave" story from ?
So is "Lust for Gold" BTW
I still mean to have a look out there at the place where the scene of the "Peralta" map on the rock was shot.
If any trace of it remains, it should be possible to find it by using this still I saved.....
Someone else added the red jif outlines.



Be a fun search......maybe Wayne T. and Frank would join me in that.

This still is better.....

 

[Al D]

He didn't, it was just a good guess, since they were found close to them. He just never could understand how to follow them.

Homar

When Clarence Mitchel acquired the stone maps, he must have been privey to some inside information, he was convinced that the maps pertained to the Superstitions, so much so that he even fabricated trail clues to convince others of the same.

 

[deducer]

Howdy deducer,

The secrecy may just be a gag order, but I doubt that Peg Leg left them anything related to the PSM's. The idea that he did was born from assumptions. As I told you before Travis's discovery of the PSM's has been damaged by many who try to debunk it, and for some reason most people tend to believe those assumptions rather than ignore them, it's easier I guess. When it was found that Peg Leg Tumlinson was Travis's Grandfather, and a former treasurer hunter that had several treasure maps, it was assumed that there was a connection there.

Travis's Uncle, Robert Tumlinson, also planted that idea into Robert Garman as he swindled him as R.G. put it. You may remember R. T.'s letter to R. G., telling him he has some stone maps. Garman ended up with a map he thought was a Peg Leg map, and used it to search for 25 years. That map was the Peralta Tesora Mappa that has Robert Tumlinson's writing all over it, it is not a Peralta map.

Azmula claimed that the PSM's came from a church in Arizpe, Sonora, and that Peg Leg brought them to Arizona. Even Larry Webb believed Don Shades story that Peg Leg had come to Arizona with 500 Mexicans to look for a Spanish treasure. This all came from Ray Howland's claim of finding Peg Leg's diary of that expedition, but it turns out that Peg Leg was illiterate, go figure.

Tom K. also fell for a story that a Mexican bracero while building a fence for John Hart, found the PSM's, and sold them to Robert Tumlinson in Florence for ten dollars. Then R. G. comes around, gathers all these stories, and forms his own. The bulk of what he found was Travis, and his Uncles ideas as to where the PSM's led, they are not blueprints. R.G. also claimed Travis bought some smaller stone maps from Charlie Miller. I have no doubt that Charlie may have swindled Travis since Charlie's find of some stone maps, after Travis's discovery, and Charlie's find of Ruth's map, and the rifle that killed Ruth is a very questionable coincidence. R.G. also claimed Travis never touched the PSM's in the museum, yet he uses these maps, instead of the small ones he claimed Travis bought to show where his 1847 site was emptied, and where the end of the trail should be.

You had once asked me to prove what I was posting, at that time some were saying Travis made, and buried the stone maps. So I pm'ed you showing you how precisely the PSM's had been buried, making it impossible for Travis to have done it, and also impossible for any Jesuit to have placed them there.

On Travis's carving on sandstone, in those days, all kids played outside, and carved on sandstone, not just Travis. On Garry's visit there, he was shown a dirt road that had about 150 yards of exposed sandstone with names from the whole neighborhood. It was conclusive for Garry, as it is for me.

Homar

Homar,

Two thoughts, but let me preface them with my belief that what separates a really good investigator from an average one is guarding against the temptation to assume, to think you know, or to assume you know what happened. This is a lesson that I've had to learn again and again, not just research-wise, but also out in the field. I had been looking for a set of symbols in an area of interest and had completely overlooked a bluff that was right in front of me because it was one of the first areas that I had checked out while becoming acquainted with the area, and somehow my mind had just put a checkmark on that area and I neglected the realization that while it was the first I had explored, I had not searched it thoroughly, and for the symbols I was looking for.

You state that you doubt that Pegleg Tumlinson left his descendants anything, and anything contrary to that is an assumption. Why is that so? Is there anything that conclusively proves that Pegleg left his family nothing?

And as far as the neighborhood kids leaving their names on exposed sandstone, that may have been true, but Travis went way beyond that. He carved on the chimney of the family cabin, he carved a stone with a galleon on one side and a treasure chest on the other- and Garry, on the other site, made a good argument for the similarity of the lettering characteristics as far as this stone, and the H/P Stone Map. With the detailed comparison, Garry much pushes this tale beyond the realms of sheer coincidence. There was at least sort of inspiration if nothing else.

One other thing to consider- the Superstitions are not on the way from Texas to Oregon. They are a serious detour. And even if we were to suppose that Travis wanted to vary how he got back and forth between Oregon and Texas, and decided to go via Phoenix, he would have taken what today exists as the well known I-10 which passes through Tucson on its way up to Phoenix. While you still can see the Superstitions while driving north on I-10 (I have) they don't really stand out from any of the mountain ranges in that area, IMO.

 

[deducer]

I get what you're saying, but considering the dissension within the two branches of the family over the years, what she could have remembered would surely have been influenced by those pro-con arguments made by the adult members of the family. I do think it's possible that Peck could have attempted to communicate with Janie later on, but was ether rebuffed or didn't receive any answers contrary to what he already considered accurate.

I would consider it part and parcel of assembling the whole picture. Whatever she may have had to said would either offset or corroborate any other information offered by various members of the family, and this would aid in constructing as realistic a portrait of what really happened, as far as the provenance of the Stone Maps.

At this point, while I don't disagree that Travis found some portions of the Stone Maps in the Superstitions, I have thoroughly discarded the premise that his discovery of the Stone Maps was in any way, accidental.

Since what we see in the bumper photo are only the Trail Stone Maps, I would venture that these are what Travis found in the Superstitions. There are no bumper photos of the H/P stone, and since, from the assembled interviews and researches over the years, it seems that Travis spent most of his time on the Trail Stones, there wouldn't have been a reason to conceal or keep hidden, the H/P stone.

 

[deducer]

It's also possible that Peck got the same answer as Larry. When Larry Webb contacted Janie, and asked her about the stone maps, she told him that Travis made them. So it was pointless to ask where, and how he found them.

Homar

On the other site, if you will recall- from the thread on Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps, while Janie did tell Larry that Travis "carved them" (and Larry was quite taken aback), we must remember that Janie also told another person that her father "in no way, hoaxed the Stone Maps."

So this is an interesting contradiction. What are we to make of it? Does there exist a scenario where both statements could be truthful? It's an interesting thing to think about.

 

[sdcfia]

On the other site, if you will recall- from the thread on Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps, while Janie did tell Larry that Travis "carved them" (and Larry was quite taken aback), we must remember that Janie also told another person that her father "in no way, hoaxed the Stone Maps."

So this is an interesting contradiction. What are we to make of it? Does there exist a scenario where both statements could be truthful? It's an interesting thing to think about.

Too many degrees of separation, as is the case with most of the lore infesting this topic.

 

[markmar]

It's likely I watched that episode back when it was first broadcast in the late 70's.
I've also sat through it a couple of times since my first visit to the Sups in 1995.
And just as likely I'd seen "Lust for Gold" at one of the Saturday "Cowboy" matinees we went to regularly as kids in the 50's.
Gotta say, I never even imagined I would wind up involved in all of this myself.
It's been very interesting....to say the least.

That episode however, does describe the cave as having walls lined or perhaps coated with gold.
If there is some factual basis for such a place, perhaps it's not geological (natural/gold ore), but rather a decorative application.
The color pigments used by Aztec artists were very specific in a symbolical sense, yellow being the natural choice for gold or other things directly related to the Sun. This also applied to both pre and post conquest codices, although there was a period following the conquest where many pigments were in short supply regionally due to European demand. This may have been a problem during the siege of Tenochtitlan as well, and is the reason for some of their work that survived the "burnings" having limited color, or none at all.

This illustration in particular, makes me wonder......

View attachment 1670625

.... a golden lining would certainly brighten things up in there

Maybe this is why the sacred cave was named and CAVERNA AURUM ( golden cavity ) .

 

[sdcfia]

... This illustration in particular, makes me wonder......

View attachment 1670625

Petroglyph, "bent mountain", seven caves. Or, if you prefer, giant squid - take your pick.

 

[markmar]

I agree with you're interpretation of the Duran illustration as showing the open mouth of a mountain lion,abstract though it is, but other than being a general clue as to location, mountain lions range from Alaska all the way down to Argentina, so it's not definitive IMO. Petroglyphs of both big cats can be found throughout the Southwest, with the Jaguar (sometimes called the "Mexican Lion") and it's highly prized pelt mentioned in many native historical accounts.

I don't recall Injunbro's mention of a visit to a sacred cave somewhere out there.
But who knows ? There is no shortage of caves, and any one of them could be sacred to one or more of the tribes of Arizona I guess.

Where Injunbro wrote about the sacred cave in the Superstitions , is the post #37 at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/509505-did-waltz-really-have-rich-mine-3.html
And yes , lions high in the mountains and jaguars low in the jungle . In the pic , they are also walking on a descend sandy path with the snowing mountains in the background .
IMO , this could be interpreted as : " up there on the rocky mountains ( due the lion ) , where the desert ends and the mountains start , is the cave of Chicomostoc .

 

[somehiker]

Petroglyph, "bent mountain", seven caves. Or, if you prefer, giant squid - take your pick.
View attachment 1670751

Exploding meteors always make news.

The real Colhuacan, when seen in the flesh, explains itself.

At the very bottom......



...and part way up.....