What clue do you think will take you to the Dutchman? - Page 3
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  1. #31

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Anyone who is interested in the differences in the Apache Bands, should try to pick up "THE PEOPLE CALLED APACHE" by Thomas E. Mails. His Illustrations show the depth he went into in his research.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  2. #32
    Charter Member
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    Dec 2017
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    From "Western Apache Raiding and Warfare" (using Grenville Goodwin's notes and interviews from when he lived with the Apache)

    Attachment 1664584

    I highly recommend this book as well...using the stories in it as told by the people themselves, it's possible to get a clear idea of where they lived and some of their interactions with others such as the Yavapai...

  3. #33
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Ok , the Superstitions Mountains like we know them today were not " full ' with Apache , but the only tribe who ever passed through and lived inside were Apache . If you have another opinion or source which says otherwise , I would like to read it .
    Last edited by markmar; Dec 28, 2018 at 10:44 AM.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  4. #34

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,754
    5343 times
    Quote Originally Posted by markmar View Post
    Ok , the Superstitions Mountains like we know them today were not " full ' with Apache , but the only tribe who ever passed through and lived inside were Apache . If you have another opinion or source which says otherwise , I would like to read it .
    Marius,

    OK.....In truth, I believe the Apache presence in the Superstition Mountains is mostly myth, at least for the mid-1800s.

    At that time, the area was under the control of the Yavapais, had been for generations, specificly the Kewevikopaya, who were the "Southeastern Yavapai", and the Iiwillkamepa of that group.

    Combined, the Western Apache and the Chiricahua Apache only numbered a little over 5,000 people. Around 1,000 of that number were Chiricahua. Considering the number of women, children and old people, you can imagine there were not really that many warriors.

    The Apache who might have been in the Superstitions, would have been the Tonto. The Northern Tonto intermaried with the Yavapais to the tune of around 50%. Even with that, they probably numbered less than 800 people.

    Were there Apache in the Superstitions, sure. They pretty much went where they wanted. The Apache were mostly hunter/gatherers, mixed with raiding everyone. They followed the seasons. If they were there, it was just passing through or hiding, IMHO.

    Others will have another opinion, but that will probably be based on the stories passed down through the generations. Thay may have the true story, but I am limited in my sources. Here, I have used the works of Grenville Goodwin, Dr. Gordon C. Baldwin, Dan L. Thrapp, Michael Melody and Timothy Braatz, as well as a few sources who will not be named.

    Start with Dr. Gordon C. Baldwin.

    If you really want to learn the truth about Native Americans, you will need a fat wallet.

    Good luck,

    Joe
    " Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
    "There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.

  5. #35
    us
    Dec 2008
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    6434 times
    there just isn't enough evidence to prove the existence of apache in the supers in the 1800's...there are alot of petroglyphs in there but they are all from ancient tribes...i've never seen any proof that apache's ever carved any glyphs...anywhere...like joe says..i'm sure they were up there off and on (probably just for raids..cattle and such) but i highly doubt if they ever lived there

  6. #36
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2011
    Gold canyon AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    there just isn't enough evidence to prove the existence of apache in the supers in the 1800's...there are alot of petroglyphs in there but they are all from ancient tribes...i've never seen any proof that apache's ever carved any glyphs...anywhere...like joe says..i'm sure they were up there off and on (probably just for raids..cattle and such) but i highly doubt if they ever lived there
    No one ever lived there, not the Pima, Hohokam, Anasazi or Apache, it was a place of spirits to all of them.
    coazon de oro likes this.
    time for another drink

  7. #37
    Charter Member
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    Dec 2017
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    Marius,

    I think maybe part of the confusion is due to the Yavapai always being mis-identified as Apache...it's something to look out for when reading books, newspapers, etc., especially for anything written back in the day...

    IMO some ancient people did live in the Supes, but only in very small numbers. I think the remnants at Garden Valley are probably just one of many harvest camps, but who knows…supposedly there’s a man-made mound there…which might mean a lot more people…but the Yavapai’s that came later probably used the valley in the same manner…for harvesting…

    Some Yavapai did "live" (a better word would be “camped”) in there now and then, but keep in mind they would have only been in there to harvest something...then they would have moved on to harvest or hunt something else...the charcoal pits and beds attributed to Peralta or Mexican miners were most likely IMO associated with agave or other cactus harvest cooking...

    I don’t know if any agave fields exist in the Supes, but it has been recently established scientifically that most stands of agave in central AZ were brought there from Mexico and primitively farmed…in other words they were sustainably harvested and cared for in order to provide long-term resources…that’s why we often see them in clumps even today…the remnants still exist…

    Written Yavapai history is spotty and often incorrect…I think Joe brought up Mike Burns…google him, much of his history was written down…he was a young Yavapai survivor of the Skeleton Cave Massacre…

  8. #38
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Now back to the thread's title .
    I took a fragment from anather forum ( https://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=454 ) which describes some clues from Estee Conatser's book .
    After I have done my research on the LDM and I formed an accurate image IMO , I made the corrections of the wrong clues on the text ( with red ) and I wrote beside , the correct clues ( with blue ) . These clues are for the mine with the tunnel below . I wish you good luck !

    " CLUES FROM - THE STERLING LEGEND By: Estee (Shirley) Conatser 1972


    Chapter 6 Page 30


    The Mine, which Waltzer DESCRIBED as being a cone shaped pit, is supposedly situated in a ravine high on the side of a mountain with the mouth of the mine facing west.It is naturally hidden by the contours of the mountain making it impossible to see from below. Directly across the ravine and facing the east ( At the head/end of the ravine and facing north ) is a rock formation shaped like a face that looks down on the mine ( opposite the mine ) . It is a short climb up to the top of the mountain from which the tip of a tall sharp peak can be seen to the south.Also across the ravine from the mine there is a cave.




    Chapter 6 Page 31


    You must go to the head of a deep, narrow, north-south ( not at all , but only at the head portion which starts from the south ) trending canyon. The right canyon can be determined by the ruins of a stone house at its head ( mouth )... He further identifies it by stating that the old Military Trail runs along the bottom ( mouth ) of the canyon and can be seen from the mine... From this point you proceed down canyon until you find a cave near the base of a high bluff. The cave faces north and at the entrance are the remains of a stone house, minus the roof, in which Walzer and his partner lived while working the mine. With this cave located, you continue down the canyon, ( totally wrong because this clue is for if someone come down from the head of the canyon ) for a distance described as several ( few ) miles, carefully observing the east ( left , because the canyon changes directions ) side of the canyon. At an undetermined distance , you will see a rock formation in the shape of a face high on a ridge. This is the key. Directly across ( At the base and at the east end ) from ( of ) this stone face is the entrance to the mine. "
    Last edited by markmar; Jan 01, 2019 at 11:37 AM.
    JohnWhite and Azquester like this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  9. #39
    us
    Chuck Chatsko

    Jun 2012
    HOUSTON
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    I can honestly say that now I am totally confused.
    markmar and coazon de oro like this.
    Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

  10. #40
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by 393stroker View Post
    I can honestly say that now I am totally confused.
    Cut and throw again ( craps game term ) .
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  11. #41
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by 393stroker View Post
    I can honestly say that now I am totally confused.
    Chuck , I edited the " north-south trending canyon " from the above text . If you consider the direction the canyon flows from its head to the mouth ( higher-lower ) , I would say is a south-north trending canyon at its head portion ..
    Last edited by markmar; Dec 30, 2018 at 03:46 PM.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  12. #42
    us
    May 2010
    texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by 393stroker View Post
    I can honestly say that now I am totally confused.
    Not hard to figure out, The Sterling Legend just has you chasing your own tail. Marius figured that out, so now he chases his own "tale".

    Homar
    markmar and Azquester like this.

  13. #43
    us
    Dec 2008
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    6434 times
    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    Not hard to figure out, The Sterling Legend just has you chasing your own tail. Marius figured that out, so now he chases his own "tale".

    Homar
    anyone that follows the stone maps are chasing their tails
    coazon de oro likes this.

  14. #44
    us
    Mr.

    Apr 2015
    AZ
    Old Compass, I have 3 of them!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    anyone that follows the stone maps are chasing their tails
    Dave, if you follow the stone maps back in time......they will lead you to a happy-go-lucky guy
    with a dremel in one hand & a beer in the other.

  15. #45
    us
    Fortune Favors the BOLD, while Karma Favors the Wise!

    Jan 2006
    Arizona Vagrant
    Modded SD2000 / Fisher FX-3 / Fisher Gold Bug II / Fisher Gemini / Schiebel MIMID
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Marius,

    I think maybe part of the confusion is due to the Yavapai always being mis-identified as Apache...it's something to look out for when reading books, newspapers, etc., especially for anything written back in the day...

    IMO some ancient people did live in the Supes, but only in very small numbers. I think the remnants at Garden Valley are probably just one of many harvest camps, but who knows…supposedly there’s a man-made mound there…which might mean a lot more people…but the Yavapai’s that came later probably used the valley in the same manner…for harvesting…

    Some Yavapai did "live" (a better word would be “camped”) in there now and then, but keep in mind they would have only been in there to harvest something...then they would have moved on to harvest or hunt something else...the charcoal pits and beds attributed to Peralta or Mexican miners were most likely IMO associated with agave or other cactus harvest cooking...

    I don’t know if any agave fields exist in the Supes, but it has been recently established scientifically that most stands of agave in central AZ were brought there from Mexico and primitively farmed…in other words they were sustainably harvested and cared for in order to provide long-term resources…that’s why we often see them in clumps even today…the remnants still exist…

    Written Yavapai history is spotty and often incorrect…I think Joe brought up Mike Burns…google him, much of his history was written down…he was a young Yavapai survivor of the Skeleton Cave Massacre…

    Jim,

    The Yavapai ARE Apache. I go in every res housing almost every day. They are called "The Yavapai Apache Nation". I'll drop a pic today.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mike
    Last edited by gollum; Jan 02, 2019 at 10:21 AM.
    markmar and coazon de oro like this.
    "You wouldn't like me when I'm mad, because I back up my rage with hard facts and logic!" - The Credible Hulk

    ............... ALWAYS REMEMBER: When you make a typo, the errorists win...................Aloha Snackbar!

 

 
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