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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    I believe the Adamsville story, in general, but am still puzzled by a few oddities;
    if Queen Valley had flour, or anything in the way of supplies, as Jim states, why did Waltz go to Adamsville instead of Queen Valley?
    also, in light of the story indicating that he was aware of Apache in the area, Adamsville would have meant that he had to travel over 20 or so miles of bushy open territory, a favorite for Apache attacks and ambushes.
    it seems to me that there may have been another reason in addition to supplies as to why Waltz chose Adamsville.
    was there anything in queen valley at that time?...
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Hi Roy,

    As you may remember, Adamsville and flour mills are an interest of mine. Here are the "facts" as I've been able to uncover so far:

    Ammi White and E.S. Noyes established a flour mill at Casa Blanca in 1860. It was the only mill in the area. There was no mill at Adamsville…yet.

    In March 1862, CSA forces under Capt. Sherrod Hunter briefly captured the mill at Casa Blanca, while Jack Swilling took the mill's owner Ammi White prisoner, and escorted him to captivity in Mesilla. White was considered a Union POW and was released when Union forces re-took control of New Mexico in late 1862.

    After chasing Hunter out of the area, Union troops built Fort Barrett and enclosed the mill within the fort’s walls. White returned after his release, and by 1864 the mill was operating under steam power. It was called the “Pima Steam Flourmill”.

    On May 10, 1867, White sold his interest in the mill to William Bichard. In late September of 1868, a flood on the Gila destroyed the mill. It was disassembled and taken to Adamsville where it was rebuilt. This was the first time there was a flour mill at Adamsville. It was built by the Bichard Bros, not Charles S. Adams.

    Charles S. Adams, the founder of Adamsville, had already sold out his interests in Adamsville and moved to the SRV before the mill was built there by William Bichard.

    Adams was killed in the “Wickenburg Massacre”, November 5, 1871. He never built or operated a mill at Adamsville. All the grain farmed at Adamsville was taken to Casa Blanca for milling, until the mill was relocated to Adamsville in 1867.(Edit: Sorry, wrong date...sometime between winter 1868 and 1870, but I haven't nailed down the exact date.)

    I realize there are stories of Waltz waiting an extra day in Adamsville because Adams didn’t have any flour milled yet (meanwhile Weiser was back at the mine getting killed). Whether or not they are true I have no idea. The only thing I would say is that Adams couldn’t have been the guy operating the mill, or have been the guy Waltz was waiting on to get flour milled. If the story is true, it would have had to been someone else besides Adams. Bichard himself was dead by 1873. So I have no idea who was supposed to be at the flour mill with Waltz. But it definitely wasn’t Adams.

    There are also several errors in the Hayden biographical file on William Bichard. It seems Hayden attributed several things Ammi White had accomplished prior to 1866, to William Bichard. The Bichards were English immigrants from San Francisco, and entered the Gila area of AZ no earlier than 1866 or 1867.

    Hope you (and everyone here on TNET) have a great Thanksgiving! Take care, Jim
    Here is the info posted by Jim
    I also read other info sources which confirm this, the important aspect IMO is when did Waltz go to Adamsville, pertaining to the story in question.
    time for another drink

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    was there anything in queen valley at that time?...
    I can’t locate the post by Jim, I will reference it when I do
    time for another drink

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    I can’t locate the post by Jim, I will reference it when I do
    larry hedrick showed up in queen valley in the late 1950's...he said the only thing there was a rock house and i think he said it was built after the turn of the century,,,he knew who built it but i cant remember his name
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  5. #35
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    I found it, my appology to all for miscredit of said postClick image for larger version. 

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    time for another drink

  6. #36
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    Hey Alan,

    I think Marc was referring to the old stage station at Hewitt's when he said "Queen Creek Trading Post"...I might be wrong but that's the impression I got for some reason...

    You had three questions in an earlier post…Personally, I think the Waltz/Adamsville story is kind of important…the reason is the source…Bark says he got the story straight from Julia and Reinhart, and Ely seems to confirm this. But there’s very little to the story, as we have it today that has proven out to be true. One example, how Waltz is reported to have explained that he and Weiser were Confederate soldiers…anyway, before we go down the Confederate Conspiracy rabbit hole, back to your questions:

    1. How do we know when Waltz was at Adamsville while Weiser was at camp?

    If there is any truth to the Adamsville story, (and I’m not saying I have any idea one way or the other) it would place the working of the LDM prior to Adams’ death in 1871. If you drill down a little deeper, it would seem to place the Adamsville event prior to Bichard’s steam mill being erected there between winter 1868- late 1869. (Because all the records indicate Adams did not work this mill, and also Waltz wouldn't have needed to wait for flour if there was a steam mill there...it was also documented that it produced enough flour to supply the SRV and Prescott, and it single-handedly drove down the price of flour in the entire territory) Since Adamsville was apparently settled around 1866, we could say with relative accuracy that the Waltz-Adamsville/Weiser-Death event took place in the 2 or so years between 1866 and 1868.

    The reason I tend not to ignore this, is that Waltz disappears between 1866 and 1870. Nor does there seem to be anyone who could be “our” Weiser in the territory during that timeframe. I find it VERY hard to believe that Waltz or Weiser could have escaped some sort of documentation, anything, between 1866 and 1870. So where was Waltz? Nobody that I know of has answered that question. Four-plus years disappeared is a LONG time.

    2. If the story about Waltz waiting in Adamsville is a deception, how would that story decieve anyone?

    I didn’t mean to give the impression I thought that the story was a deception…I meant that people tend to think the Adamsville mill (Bichard’s) was the mill the story talks about…I believe it’s pretty apparent that particular mill was still in operation at Casa Blanca until late 1868…so there HAD to be another mill there for the story to be true…I’ve done a lot of digging on this, and the more I dig, the more it looks like there was no mill at Adamsville prior to 1869 because records show Adamsville grain was being carried by wagon to Casa Blanca for milling…why do that if there’s a mill in Adamsville? The only explanation is Adams had one of the little donkey mills, which also seems to be what Bark/Ely is talking about, but they don’t say specifically. I've not been able to find any reference to one, either. I always suspected Adams may have had one, but have no proof...YET.

    3. The story I recall stated that Waltz was waiting for flour because there was none, is this significant? Could he have been waiting for something else?

    The story says he had to wait overnight for a loose horseshoe, and then the next day for flour to be milled. I believe it IS significant…if this story is true, the mine is not deep in the Supes…Waltz seems to be saying he could make it from Adamsville to the mine in just over a day (Dry camp at night, be at the mine early the next day). It’s about 22 miles as the crow flies from Adamsville to Hewitt Station area, about 25 miles to Peralta Canyon area.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Hey Alan,

    I think Marc was referring to the old stage station at Hewitt's when he said "Queen Creek Trading Post"...I might be wrong but that's the impression I got for some reason...

    You had three questions in an earlier post…Personally, I think the Waltz/Adamsville story is kind of important…the reason is the source…Bark says he got the story straight from Julia and Reinhart, and Ely seems to confirm this. But there’s very little to the story, as we have it today that has proven out to be true. One example, how Waltz is reported to have explained that he and Weiser were Confederate soldiers…anyway, before we go down the Confederate Conspiracy rabbit hole, back to your questions:

    1. How do we know when Waltz was at Adamsville while Weiser was at camp?

    If there is any truth to the Adamsville story, (and I’m not saying I have any idea one way or the other) it would place the working of the LDM prior to Adams’ death in 1871. If you drill down a little deeper, it would seem to place the Adamsville event prior to Bichard’s steam mill being erected there between winter 1868- late 1869. (Because all the records indicate Adams did not work this mill, and also Waltz wouldn't have needed to wait for flour if there was a steam mill there...it was also documented that it produced enough flour to supply the SRV and Prescott, and it single-handedly drove down the price of flour in the entire territory) Since Adamsville was apparently settled around 1866, we could say with relative accuracy that the Waltz-Adamsville/Weiser-Death event took place in the 2 or so years between 1866 and 1868.

    The reason I tend not to ignore this, is that Waltz disappears between 1866 and 1870. Nor does there seem to be anyone who could be “our” Weiser in the territory during that timeframe. I find it VERY hard to believe that Waltz or Weiser could have escaped some sort of documentation, anything, between 1866 and 1870. So where was Waltz? Nobody that I know of has answered that question. Four-plus years disappeared is a LONG time.

    2. If the story about Waltz waiting in Adamsville is a deception, how would that story decieve anyone?

    I didn’t mean to give the impression I thought that the story was a deception…I meant that people tend to think the Adamsville mill (Bichard’s) was the mill the story talks about…I believe it’s pretty apparent that particular mill was still in operation at Casa Blanca until late 1868…so there HAD to be another mill there for the story to be true…I’ve done a lot of digging on this, and the more I dig, the more it looks like there was no mill at Adamsville prior to 1869 because records show Adamsville grain was being carried by wagon to Casa Blanca for milling…why do that if there’s a mill in Adamsville? The only explanation is Adams had one of the little donkey mills, which also seems to be what Bark/Ely is talking about, but they don’t say specifically. I've not been able to find any reference to one, either. I always suspected Adams may have had one, but have no proof...YET.

    3. The story I recall stated that Waltz was waiting for flour because there was none, is this significant? Could he have been waiting for something else?

    The story says he had to wait overnight for a loose horseshoe, and then the next day for flour to be milled. I believe it IS significant…if this story is true, the mine is not deep in the Supes…Waltz seems to be saying he could make it from Adamsville to the mine in just over a day (Dry camp at night, be at the mine early the next day). It’s about 22 miles as the crow flies from Adamsville to Hewitt Station area, about 25 miles to Peralta Canyon area.
    Jim, you are spot on in your assessment, I totally agree, another point is that all accounts of Waltz leaving Phoenix to go to his mine and returning put him out of town for no more than four days, an almost impossible task to walk from Phoenix to the interior of the Superstitions and back in so little time.
    time for another drink

  8. #38
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    Potbelly Jim wrote
    .If you can remember which map that shows "Adams Mill", or the newspaper advertisement with the 1865 date for a Bichard mill, I would be in your debt...I went through my pile of junk and it looks like I don't have those...
    The map (or at least one) has been posted here on T-net before by someone else, I just did a quick search and could not find either of the two I know had it as Adams Mill, one was a military map if I recall correctly. As for the advert showing the claim of being founded in 1865

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    Arizona citizen., November 29, 1873 page 2

    Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, hope you all ate too much!

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Potbelly Jim wrote


    The map (or at least one) has been posted here on T-net before by someone else, I just did a quick search and could not find either of the two I know had it as Adams Mill, one was a military map if I recall correctly. As for the advert showing the claim of being founded in 1865

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Arizona citizen., November 29, 1873 page 2

    Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, hope you all ate too much!

    Thank you, Roy! I believe you just cracked the code on something I've been searching for, for a long, long time...I believe the 1865 date refers to their store, which is the earliest date (1865) I have ever seen (it says Sanford, but it was really at Adamsville as they went back and forth because of political shenanigans trying to rename the town)...the "Pioneer Flouring Mills" is what they called the steam mill they purchased/moved from Casa Blanca in 1868/9....Thank you again, Roy, this will help me in nailing down exactly when the Bichards opened their first store, I had nothing from 1865 yet!!!!!!!!!!! Best regards, Jim
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    alan m: I'm not sure that the answers to your three questions - if the answers are even available - have any significance, other than the apparent fact that Waltz spent at least some time in Adamsville AZ. The first thing I would check is whether any complete biography is available for Charles S. Adams. I suspect that would be a complete dead end, but the importance here is not the flour miller, but the name "Adams" and the recognition it carries for the Organization loosely referred to as the KGC. Named things, people, places - those are the identifiers in treasure tales, especially those allegedly associated with the KGC.

    As an aside, Jacob Waltz spent a couple years (late 1840s) in Natchez MS, in that the incubator for the founding of the KGC under Gen. Quitman. Natchez is the county seat of Adams County MS. [name recognition] Was Waltz indoctrinated there? Maybe, because he and other budding operatives (including, of all people, members of Jesse James' family) relocated to Paso Robles County CA, during the CA gold rush. Paso Robles became quite a western center of Southern political support prior to and during the Civil War.

    As another aside: does anyone know the exact coordinates for the Tempe Mystery Glyphs shown below? If so, I'd like to know, because with that information I can provide you with an interesting map of the western Superstition Range that you can play around with concerning the LDM/PSM lore.

    Attachment 1654106

    Oro: yes, the confusion, cross-pollination, disinformation, et al regarding these treasure tales is maddening. What else can you do except try to gather the earliest information available and try to reconcile it with later stuff? The problem then becomes in choosing which information is the most reliable.

    rennes: to echo mdog, what is meant by your LUE comment?
    The organization went to great lengths to locate and organize their named things. In my map work I researched a small town that was a part of one of these landmark layouts. The town had to have a specific name in order to be part of the layout. During the mid 1800s, somebody decided this town should have a new name. A group of strangers appeared and offered free drinks to any man who would vote for the name they offered for the town. The name passed and the town became part of the layout. The guys who bought the drinks left town.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    alan m: I'm not sure that the answers to your three questions - if the answers are even available - have any significance, other than the apparent fact that Waltz spent at least some time in Adamsville AZ. The first thing I would check is whether any complete biography is available for Charles S. Adams. I suspect that would be a complete dead end, but the importance here is not the flour miller, but the name "Adams" and the recognition it carries for the Organization loosely referred to as the KGC. Named things, people, places - those are the identifiers in treasure tales, especially those allegedly associated with the KGC.

    As an aside, Jacob Waltz spent a couple years (late 1840s) in Natchez MS, in that the incubator for the founding of the KGC under Gen. Quitman. Natchez is the county seat of Adams County MS. [name recognition] Was Waltz indoctrinated there? Maybe, because he and other budding operatives (including, of all people, members of Jesse James' family) relocated to Paso Robles County CA, during the CA gold rush. Paso Robles became quite a western center of Southern political support prior to and during the Civil War.

    As another aside: does anyone know the exact coordinates for the Tempe Mystery Glyphs shown below? If so, I'd like to know, because with that information I can provide you with an interesting map of the western Superstition Range that you can play around with concerning the LDM/PSM lore.

    Attachment 1654106

    Oro: yes, the confusion, cross-pollination, disinformation, et al regarding these treasure tales is maddening. What else can you do except try to gather the earliest information available and try to reconcile it with later stuff? The problem then becomes in choosing which information is the most reliable.

    rennes: to echo mdog, what is meant by your LUE comment?
    Adams County, Mississippi is just north of Wilkinson County which was named after General James Wilkinson. Wilkinson built Fort Adams and was involved in a conspiracy to create a country on the west side of the Mississippi River. He was also a spy for the Spanish, as you already know. You have pointed out, many times, the Adams name as it relates to treasure legends and I think you might be onto something there. Even into modern times.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Thank you, Roy! I believe you just cracked the code on something I've been searching for, for a long, long time...I believe the 1865 date refers to their store, which is the earliest date (1865) I have ever seen (it says Sanford, but it was really at Adamsville as they went back and forth because of political shenanigans trying to rename the town)...the "Pioneer Flouring Mills" is what they called the steam mill they purchased/moved from Casa Blanca in 1868/9....Thank you again, Roy, this will help me in nailing down exactly when the Bichards opened their first store, I had nothing from 1865 yet!!!!!!!!!!! Best regards, Jim
    According to my research, it was named Sanford after a post office was located there, it was Adamsville before that, so if the information says Sanford, it must have been after the town was founded, by at least a year.
    Last edited by alan m; Nov 23, 2018 at 08:41 PM.
    time for another drink

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    According to my research, it was named Sanford after a post office was located there, it was Adamsville before that, so if the information says Sanford, itmust have been after the town was founded, by at least a year.
    You are correct, Alan. The advertisement Roy found was from 1873, thus the Sanford reference...the advert itself says the Bichard store was "established in 1865". I don't know for sure at this point, but I believe the first store they had was at Casa Blanca...in 1867 (I think) they bought out C. S. Adams' remaining property at Adamsville and located a store and saloon there...then after the 1868 flood, they moved the steam mill to Adamsville as well...I know in 1870 that Wm Bichard was running the Casa Blanca store, and Stephen Bichard was running the Adamsville store...they also had depots in Phoenix and Prescott for sure...Adams ran the Prescott store for most of 1871...I believe there might have been others...

    It appears to me at this point that the Bichards moved into the Gila territory with the specific intent of creating a mercantile "empire" in AZ. They bought into Ammi White's mill, and soon thereafter bought out Adams. White and Adams both worked in partnership with the Bichards, but White left after they bought his shares...Adams stayed on and continued working with/for the Bichards even after they bought him out, so he was technically an employee or agent of Bichard & Co...after Wm died, the Bichards lost interest in AZ and over time, just quit coming back to AZ...the properties were later sold off for a fraction of what they were worth, but I guess the Bichards just didn't care anymore.
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  14. #44
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    Not to be argumentative, but since Charles Adams supposedly settled in what became Adamsville in 1864, it is not outside of the realm of possibility that Bichard set up a shop there the following year.

    You probably already have this but it is a pretty good article on the history of grain mills in Arizona:

    Redirect Notice

    Donkey powered mills were apparently fairly common by the mid 1800s, so there could easily have been one set up and working there. One source claimed they could produce a half bushel of flour a day, so being forced to wait a day would not be a big surprise.

    Charles Adams was running a saloon in Adamsville as the proprietor in 1870, at least he was advertising as such:

    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...22/ed-1/seq-2/

    <The Weekly Arizonian, Jan. 22 1870 PG 2, Tucson>

    Rowletts mill was open for business at least as early as 1859, as evidenced by their advertisement from that date:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    <The Weekly Arizonian, Nov 17th 1859 pg 3>

    On whether there was a man named Weiser, or Wisner or Weisner or Weisse or Wesser, there are multiple candidates. A Jacob WESSER is listed in the 1867 territorial census as living in La Paz, for one example.

    Please do continue, didn't want to derail the topic.

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  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    Please do continue, didn't want to derail the topic.
    On the contrary, Roy, please do continue derailing the original topic with this interesting discussion that has emerged.
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