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  1. #31
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
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    Good evening Matthew: What do you think it was that caused Petrasch to explore Tortilla Mountain? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    Good evening Matthew: What do you think it was that caused Petrasch to explore Tortilla Mountain? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    Greg,

    I believe Gottfreid and Herman Petrasch both believed Jacob Waltz had a mine and possibly a cache of gold somewhere in the Superstitions.
    After two or three futile attempts to find it with Julia Thomas, the Petrasch's struck out on their own to search in different areas.
    Gottfreid took a job with the Bark-Criswell ranch so he could both earn some money and be close to the Superstitions.
    After looking over the mountains and the lay of the land relative to all the clues he had learned, Gottfreid decided Tortilla Mountain was his best guess.
    He established a camp there and used it for a decade as he searched for Waltz's mine.
    I think he found things there that he believed fit the clues he had learned.
    That doesn't mean Petrasch was right or wrong, just that Tortilla Mountain was where he thought he had the best chance of finding Waltz's hidden gold.

    Herman Petrasch worked for Bark-Criswell and later doing odd jobs for the Clemens Ranch (Reavis) working for Will Knight.
    He followed in his fathers footsteps working in the Superstitions and hunting the mine in his spare time.

    Matthew
    Last edited by Matthew Roberts; Jan 24, 2019 at 12:31 PM.

  3. #33
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    Thank you to Greg and Kraig for allowing me to post photos of the coins...

    Below are photos of the coins reportedly found by Jim Hatt at one of his locations of interest on Tortilla Mt. To the best of my ability, the coins look to be 3 Indian Head Pennies (1862, 1863 and 1886) - all in various states of corrosion and wear. A well worn 2 cent piece that looks to be 1864 and 2 German 1 Mark silver coins dated 1875 and 1876.

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    Last edited by Cubfan64; Jan 25, 2019 at 11:36 AM.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  4. #34
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    Apr 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Thank you to Greg and Kraig for allowing me to post photos of the coins...

    Below are photos of the coins reportedly found by Jim Hatt at one of his locations of interest on Tortilla Mt. To the best of my ability, the coins look to be 3 Indian Head Pennies (1862, 1863 and 1886) - all in various states of corrosion and wear. A well worn 2 cent piece that looks to be 1864 and 2 German 1 Mark silver coins dated 1875 and 1876.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tortilla Coins 1.PNG 
Views:	115 
Size:	1.37 MB 
ID:	1674294
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tortilla Coins 2.PNG 
Views:	94 
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ID:	1674295
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cubfan64,

    Thanks for posting the photos of the coins that Jim Hatt found. As far as I know, Jim never said these coins belonged to Waltz. He said they may have belonged to him and looked at them as just another interesting piece of the puzzle that was his cave area. Jim may have used a metal detector at the cave to find the coins, I am not sure. There was about 4-5 inches of dirt and dust in the cave that covered the solid bedrock floor.

    Best,

    Matthew
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  5. #35
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    Matthew

    The coins are nice, but did he offer to show any other things of interest or support to findings of the coins. The basic of the time frame, Such as metal,wood,leather,pottery or glass, All things were made of these few things back then. It's would be nice to see pic's of this type of stuff, it would give alittle more insight to who left the coins behind.

    Wrmickel1

  6. #36

    Aug 2017
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    The german coin is nearly pure silver, 900/1000. Reliable source, it contains 5 gramm pure silver. So it is possible that they simply used some coins the germans brought with them, at least within groups of german immigrants.
    But it has a political message for immigrants too. When Waltz left Germany, there was no german empire, no currency for whole Germany. The term "german empire" had a meaning in the attempted first revolution around 1848. So the print on the coin is like still fresh political news about the time after 1871, when an empire was established.
    Could be a reason to keep the coin.

  7. #37
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    Apr 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrmickel1 View Post
    Matthew

    The coins are nice, but did he offer to show any other things of interest or support to findings of the coins. The basic of the time frame, Such as metal,wood,leather,pottery or glass, All things were made of these few things back then. It's would be nice to see pic's of this type of stuff, it would give alittle more insight to who left the coins behind.

    Wrmickel1

    Wrmickel1,

    Both at Petrasch's camp and at Hatts cave several other old items were found. It was impossible to tell who might have left them as they were all from the 1870-1890 time period and later.
    Several Whiskey bottles with cork stoppers. Other bottles of the same era and type, medicine and extracts used in cooking such as vanilla.
    Variety of metal cans, condensed milk mostly, also tobacco cans, etc.
    A wood Arbuckles coffee box that at one time held 1 pound bags of Ariosa coffee.
    Various coins German and American. (see photos).
    Most of the items were found at two separate dump areas like you would find at almost any camp that was used for any length of time.

    Matthew

  8. #38
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    Thanks Matthew

    That paints a pretty good picture. Predates the Pertrasch's, But I've would have wanted older stuff. Before I spent a lot of time on this sight.

    Wrmickel1

  9. #39
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrmickel1 View Post
    Thanks Matthew

    That paints a pretty good picture. Predates the Pertrasch's, But I've would have wanted older stuff. Before I spent a lot of time on this sight.

    Wrmickel1
    mick..the first thing you should be questioning is the source...jim hatt said he found them...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    mick..the first thing you should be questioning is the source...jim hatt said he found them...
    Yeah, I didn't know him personally, But maybe Matthew was around when some of it was found. But I would run the Stone crosses through that area, from the pic he showed, And I Do believe The Stone Maps and stone crosses depict different places. I'd start a fish creek area were the creek goes under the land bridge thing.

    Wrmickel1

  11. #41
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
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    Good evening Matthew: When you were exploring the Petrasch Camp Site where he kept his tools, did you see any markings on the rocks in that area such as pictographs? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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  12. #42
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    Apr 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    Good evening Matthew: When you were exploring the Petrasch Camp Site where he kept his tools, did you see any markings on the rocks in that area such as pictographs? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    Greg,

    Near to Petrasch's camp and Jim Hatt's canyon and cave are a few native American pictographs. The area is high up on Tortilla Mountain and there are still faint remains of Mescal pits nearby that the Apache would use to roast their agave for food and to make a strong drink from. There is what appears to be a large cross on a cliff face on the west side of Tortilla but it is difficult to tell if it is natural or someone made it look that way. I've found Indian pottery shards, metate's and hand mono's as well as chipped and broken pieces of arrowheads and points. It's pretty apparent the Indians (Apache) would use the top of Tortilla Mountain quite heavily.

    Best,

    Matthew
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  13. #43
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
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    Thank you Matthew: You mentioned that you at one time explored what is call Old Cottonwood Canyon which starts at the saddle on Tortilla Mountain and ends up flowing into Peters Canyon. From you previous post, it was possible to travel down that canyon at one time before the brush got so thick that it now becomes very difficult. When you went down, did you locate anything in that canyon of interest? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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  14. #44
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    Apr 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory E. Davis View Post
    Thank you Matthew: You mentioned that you at one time explored what is call Old Cottonwood Canyon which starts at the saddle on Tortilla Mountain and ends up flowing into Peters Canyon. From you previous post, it was possible to travel down that canyon at one time before the brush got so thick that it now becomes very difficult. When you went down, did you locate anything in that canyon of interest? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
    Hello Greg,

    Old Cottonwood canyon on the west side of Tortilla Mountain is a long rough and brushy canyon that eventually empties into Peters canyon.
    There are many interesting things in that canyon, mostly Indian artifacts and a couple of interesting prospect diggings from long ago.
    This canyon is so far off the established trails that very few hikers have ever had reason to explore the canyon, you have to go out of your way just to get to it.
    This is a plus for the canyon because everything in there is pristine and much the way things were 150 years ago.
    The cattle at one time kept a trail open from the head to its mouth but since the cattle are gone from that country (1983) the trails are choked with trees and thick brush, cat-claw and manzanita and almost impossible to get through.

    Best,

    Matthew
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  15. #45
    us
    Director of Research, Acquisitions, Archives and Library, Superstition Mountain Historical Society,and one of its founders, Member of Arizona First Families, Westerners, Arizona Historical Society, Central Arizona Museum Association and the Dons Club

    Oct 2013
    Tempe, Arizona
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    Good evening Matthew: Did Jim Hatt stay in that cave all the time he stayed in the canyon or did he have any other campsites in that surrounding area? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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