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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    These are very good reasonings; sound logic here.

    The one thing that prevents me from accepting this outcome is the fact that when Waltz caught Holmes tracking him out by Tortilla Creek, he informed Holmes that if Holmes tried that stunt again, Waltz would kill him. To me, these are very strong words.

    What exactly happened to reverse Waltz's position from threatening to kill Holmes, to giving him the ore, outright?
    deducer...its hard to elaborate on how waltz felt about being tracked by holmes (if it really even happened)...waltz might not have been the mean nasty murdering scoundrel that he is made out to be..my guess is he wasn't....nobody has ever turned up any record of him being arrested for any violent crimes..or anything else for that matter...if i had a hidden mine and i caught a friend following me..i would scold him good but wouldn't hold a grudge...gold does funny things to people

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    deducer...its hard to elaborate on how waltz felt about being tracked by holmes (if it really even happened)...waltz might not have been the mean nasty murdering scoundrel that he is made out to be..my guess is he wasn't....nobody has ever turned up any record of him being arrested for any violent crimes..or anything else for that matter...if i had a hidden mine and i caught a friend following me..i would scold him good but wouldn't hold a grudge...gold does funny things to people
    Not sure this would be something Holmes would just make up just for the heck of it. Many years later, he went back to that spot, sat on it and let his picture be taken. Why do that if the whole thing was a contrivance? Just a waste of time and energy. It's actually on the way to where Brownie's search area was.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Not sure this would be something Holmes would just make up just for the heck of it. Many years later, he went back to that spot, sat on it and let his picture be taken. Why do that if the whole thing was a contrivance? Just a waste of time and energy. It's actually on the way to where Brownie's search area was.
    have you seen this pic ?
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  4. #34
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    It was Dick's son Brownie who posed on the boulder, was it not. Photo probably taken by Clay Worst, I would surmise.
    If true, Dick showed the rock to Brownie, then Brownie to Clay. It's both a story and a clue to Waltz's route that I also find plausible and, having spoken a bit with Clay about it, quite believable. I've been to the boulder. Sat on it myself and looked around to see what matched the background in the photo. I've also done a fair bit of hiking and climbing well beyond the spot. I suspect I've also gone in about as far as Waltz himself would have had to go, though not necessarily by the same route.
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  5. #35
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    That Brownie sat there on that rock is indisputable. It happened, we have the photographic evidence. But there's no evidence the related story about Dick Holmes following Waltz there is true, while we have evidence that seemingly points to the likelihood that it ISN'T true.

    - In the Holmes Manuscript deathbed confession and directions to the mine, why didn't Waltz start with: "Dick, head on back to that rock in Tortilla Creek where I almost shot you. Start there."

    - The timeline is problematic. Holmes would have likely been too young to have followed Waltz into the mountains. While the Holmes Manuscript would have us believe Waltz was traipsing around out there until 1891, (actually catching his pneumonia on a trip out there instead of the flood in town), most other sources say he didn't frequent the mine much and hadn't been there for many years prior to his death.

    I'm just repeating stuff we all know, so I'll stop. Brownie was a stand-up guy by all accounts, and he had a belief in his father's word that seems to have placed Dick not far from the right hand of God. Quite understandable, but to an outside observer it would appear Dick Holmes, or someone else telling stories about Dick to Brownie, (I've heard some stories about my father I know aren't true, so I wonder if the same might be true of Brownie, considering Dick's place in territorial history) might've had a tendency to yarn it up.
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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    have you seen this pic ?
    Name:  Brownie on rock at Tortilla spring.jpg
Views: 404
Size:  15.0 KB

    Wayne is correct, it is Brownie in the picture, sitting on the rock, not Dick. My mistake. You can see this rock from where the creek crosses the road, just down from the restaurant at TF. And as I've mentioned before it's the perfect place to ambush someone trailing you because you become exposed, and it's also the place where several trails criss-cross and go off in different directions so it was imperative for Dick to catch Waltz before he got too far from this point.

    FWIW, Holmes always thought that Government Wells was what Waltz meant, when he referenced "First Water," and that Mormon Flat was where Waltz crossed the Salt.

    And, from that spot, it's not too far to get to Brownie's search area, and to where his urn is located.
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  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    - In the Holmes Manuscript deathbed confession and directions to the mine, why didn't Waltz start with: "Dick, head on back to that rock in Tortilla Creek where I almost shot you. Start there."
    This is a point that has been raised several times by a few serious researchers. For me, it reinforces my notion that on his deathbed, Waltz didn't know who he was talking to, and thus gave complete directions. This premise then allows for Holmes to have known so much, despite being warned upon pains of death not to follow Waltz into the mountains, and despite perhaps being disliked by Waltz.

    I don't think that Waltz was the kind of person who would have bequeathed his mine to more than one person or party, causing a competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    - The timeline is problematic. Holmes would have likely been too young to have followed Waltz into the mountains. While the Holmes Manuscript would have us believe Waltz was traipsing around out there until 1891, (actually catching his pneumonia on a trip out there instead of the flood in town), most other sources say he didn't frequent the mine much and hadn't been there for many years prior to his death.
    I would not be surprised if Holmes was in his teens, even early teens when he followed Waltz. In the early days of the frontier, people had to grow up fast.

    EDIT: To follow up on this, T.E. Glover in his "Holmes Manuscript" states that Waltz was at his mine as late as 1884. Glover, himself, thinks that Dick Holmes followed Waltz around 1880. This would make Holmes 15 years old. On the frontier, that's basically an adult age.
    Last edited by deducer; Jun 16, 2019 at 08:25 AM. Reason: Additional information re: Holmes's age.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    This is a point that has been raised several times by a few serious researchers. For me, it reinforces my notion that on his deathbed, Waltz didn't know who he was talking to, and thus gave complete directions. This premise then allows for Holmes to have known so much, despite being warned upon pains of death not to follow Waltz into the mountains, and despite perhaps being disliked by Waltz.

    I don't think that Waltz was the kind of person who would have bequeathed his mine to more than one person or party, causing a competition.



    I would not be surprised if Holmes was in his teens, even early teens when he followed Waltz. In the early days of the frontier, people had to grow up fast.

    EDIT: To follow up on this, T.E. Glover in his "Holmes Manuscript" states that Waltz was at his mine as late as 1884. Glover, himself, thinks that Dick Holmes followed Waltz around 1880. This would make Holmes 15 years old. On the frontier, that's basically an adult age.
    While it's impossible to know for sure, it seems to me that the stories indicate Waltz intended his remaining caches go to Julia, not the mine. Only a mining man with connections to the industry, connections to and the trust of men with lots of money, and the demonstrated ability to run a profitable mine, could reasonably be expected to have the wherewithal to develop that mine. Waltz would have known Julia stood no chance of that, and the stories seem to indicate this is what he was thinking when he told her to look for caches, and told the other two how to find the mine. The older of the two men was a well-known superintendent of a large and profitable mine.

    The mine was in rough country, there was no mill nearby, no transportation, no nothing. So it would take a great deal of money and experience to open that mine. This IMO is why Waltz never filed a claim on it. He would have just had to sell it anyway, in order to see it developed. That didn't work too well for Wickenburg or Vickroy, whose misfortune I'm sure Waltz followed closely. So if all filing a claim would do is force his own hand, and bring multitudes of men looking to strike it rich into his quiet little canyon, why do it?

    I believe Dick Holmes Jr. was born in 1867, which would have made him 13 in 1880, but I've never verified that for certain myself. The newspapers said 1865. Not that it matters as we're splitting hairs here. I think you make a good point that Dick Holmes was old enough to follow Waltz into the mountains in later years, given the demands on young men of the day...even if he was barely into his teens.

    The one thing that seems obvious, regardless of what each of us thinks about the details of the stories, is that rock in Tortilla Creek was important to Brownie's search for the LDM.
    Last edited by PotBelly Jim; Jun 16, 2019 at 03:23 PM.
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  9. #39
    gr
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    Jim

    I believe Waltz was never made a step in Tortila Creek. IMHO this deduction was a lure made out from Gonzales map.
    The wrong interpretation of the old Mexican maps which were cunning made using few Spanish treasure codes,was the beggining of a wrong researching plan. Is the only reason nobody found any real Peralta mine using their ( Peraltas ) maps, except NP.
    Last edited by markmar; Jun 16, 2019 at 11:50 AM.
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    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  10. #40
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    Hi Marius,

    You may be right, as I have no idea where any Peralta mine, Jesuit treasure, or the LDM is...at least in the Supes...I have been to one Peralta mine, but it's not in that range

    Attachment 1723487

  11. #41
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    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Hi Marius,

    You may be right, as I have no idea where any Peralta mine, Jesuit treasure, or the LDM is...at least in the Supes...I have been to one Peralta mine, but it's not in that range

    Attachment 1723487
    Jim

    From my reasearch using Peraltas maps and other sources, I found out how Peraltas have worked 6 rich gold mines from about 8 prospects holes in the Superstitions. Of course they have aquired a great amount of gold nuggets panning the canyons below those outcrops.

    You know why the Mexicans chose to work clandestine the LDM instead the other mines after 1850 ? Because the LDM has the best concealment in comparison with the other mines. For example, three of them are only few decades yards from very used todays main trails.
    Last edited by markmar; Jun 16, 2019 at 12:28 PM.
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    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by deducer View Post
    Name:  Brownie on rock at Tortilla spring.jpg
Views: 404
Size:  15.0 KB
    Wayne is correct, it is Brownie in the picture, sitting on the rock, not Dick. My mistake. You can see this rock from where the creek crosses the road, just down from the restaurant at TF. And as I've mentioned before it's the perfect place to ambush someone trailing you because you become exposed, and it's also the place where several trails criss-cross and go off in different directions so it was imperative for Dick to catch Waltz before he got too far from this point.

    FWIW, Holmes always thought that Government Wells was what Waltz meant, when he referenced "First Water," and that Mormon Flat was where Waltz crossed the Salt.

    And, from that spot, it's not too far to get to Brownie's search area, and to where his urn is located.
    deducer...there is alot of clues and info written and said about what waltz said when he was dying...but the truth is that either one or two men(depending on which version you believe) actually was there and knew what he said..one was dick holmes and he passed what he knew to brownie...and i dont know if i would believe everything you hear that people say came from brownie..my understanding is brownie never told anyone what his dad told him...except to one man that was his partner in later years....so most of the things you take as coming from brownie probably didn't..why would he tell anyone the directions to a mine him and his father spent their lives looking for...if he did say anything it was to throw others off....you guys would do alot better in your hunt if you would do as brownie (and herman) did..not as they said....both men had one clue that they both looked for..both said if they found this clue then they could easily find the mine...and that clue was a rock formation that looked like a man standing from a distance
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  13. #43
    ca
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    deducer...there is alot of clues and info written and said about what waltz said when he was dying...but the truth is that either one or two men(depending on which version you believe) actually was there and knew what he said..one was dick holmes and he passed what he knew to brownie...and i dont know if i would believe everything you hear that people say came from brownie..my understanding is brownie never told anyone what his dad told him...except to one man that was his partner in later years....so most of the things you take as coming from brownie probably didn't..why would he tell anyone the directions to a mine him and his father spent their lives looking for...if he did say anything it was to throw others off....you guys would do alot better in your hunt if you would do as brownie (and herman) did..not as they said....both men had one clue that they both looked for..both said if they found this clue then they could easily find the mine...and that clue was a rock formation that looked like a man standing from a distance
    How did Herman Petrasch hear about the "rock like a man", when he had never met Waltz himself ?
    Do you mean Rhiney, since Herman didn't come to Arizona (at Rhiney's request ) until 1892 ?
    Anything Herman or his brother Gottfried, who also came to AZ. in '92 to help Rhiney look for the mine, learned about it, would have come second hand from Julia, Rhiney, or someone else who had spoken with JW about the mine while he was still alive.
    Because of the animosity directed toward Dick Holmes, it wouldn't have come from him....or Gideon Roberds, if he was also shunned because of the candlebox.

    Which raises the question....What was the attitude of the Thomas/Petrasch camp towards Roberds ? Does Roberds' name come up in anything credible said to have been passed down from their side of the story ?
    From Julia or any of the Petrasch's that is .
    Last edited by somehiker; Jun 16, 2019 at 07:30 PM.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    How did Herman Petrasch hear about the "rock like a man", when he had never met Waltz himself ?
    Do you mean Rhiney, since Herman didn't come to Arizona (at Rhiney's request ) until 1892 ?
    Anything Herman or his brother Gottfried, who also came to AZ. in '92 to help Rhiney look for the mine, learned about it, would have come second hand from Julia, Rhiney, or someone else who had spoken with JW about the mine while he was still alive.
    Because of the animosity directed toward Dick Holmes, it wouldn't have come from him....or Gideon Roberds, if he was also shunned because of the candlebox.

    Which raises the question....What was the attitude of the Thomas/Petrasch camp towards Roberds ? Does Roberds' name come up in anything credible said to have been passed down from their side of the story ?
    From Julia or any of the Petrasch's that is .
    wayne...rhiney and herman started out searching together..so anything rhiney knew he shared with herman...this is sheer speculation but i'm thinking waltz told rhiney and julia quite a bit before holmes and roberds came along..probably bits at a time....the point i'm trying to make is both camps (holmes and petrash) were basically only concerned with one clue..the info i have on it came from herman
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  15. #45
    ca
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdave35 View Post
    wayne...rhiney and herman started out searching together..so anything rhiney knew he shared with herman...this is sheer speculation but i'm thinking waltz told rhiney and julia quite a bit before holmes and roberds came along..probably bits at a time....the point i'm trying to make is both camps (holmes and petrash) were basically only concerned with one clue..the info i have on it came from herman
    Basically what I'm saying, except Julia and Rhiney started sooner than that, with her "Queer Quest" attempt. I've no doubt most of what JW told them came after Rhiney had rescued Waltz from the tree and brought him the Julia's place. It was also after that when he had Rhiney fetch his ore from where he had hidden it at his adobe cabin. So, spaced over those few months, and only when he felt like talking about it.

    The "rock like a man" is one of my favorites, and is something I've kept an eye out for during the few times I've explored the area where I think it and the mine could be. There is another part to that clue though, where Waltz also was supposed to have said "that is where the trail makes a sharp turn to the south" (think that's how it goes). If so, that is a detail well worth remembering.
    One question about this remains for me. Was the rock free standing, or was it just a man-shaped part of a larger rock face or formation ? I don't think Waltz was clear about that.
    I do have one photo taken out that way, where an old trail in front of it does make such a turn.....from east to south and just a few yards to the left of this ......
    Made me wonder where that trail would go
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF1431 Waltzman.jpg 
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Size:	685.6 KB 
ID:	1723705  
    Last edited by somehiker; Jun 16, 2019 at 09:05 PM.
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