Just Another Clues Thread

[somehiker]

Since I have been unable to access or post to the previous thread, I will try a new one.

Out of those clues attributed to Jacob Waltz himself, what would each of you consider the best of the best.
And why ?

 

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[nobodie]

The horses head rock formation. It is usually the last thing to look for. It means that the mine, mines are very close by. A REAL marker will face south towards Mexico, any other direction it's just a rock.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I do not have it in front of me at the moment but ... "there's a trick to my trail' You could argue it might give a little insight into the way his mind worked. If it is true that he said that he was probably, pleased when he could outfox, people, ditch them, lead them all over the place. And the fact that he put that out there he was toying with you to figure it out, and likewise, no miner or cowboy will ever find my mine. Those are the two clues that he gives that are open-ended, kinda like the goose chases he led people on. Is there any correlation between those two clues?

 

[somehiker]

Number 1 for me would be the "military trail" clue. Although the army used different trails to patrol the range, especially during the 1860's and 70's, that it was something important, and to him worth keeping in mind, puts it at the top of my list. In part, Since this IMO, suggests a distance between the trail and his mine that was not very great, and that he wanted to avoid being seen by, or having evidence of his mine noticed by passing patrols.
I see that particular clue as reducing any search area down to a narrow corridor along one of the more frequently used trails during that time frame.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but any clue attributed to Waltz is probably not what he actually said, for obvious reasons.

That being said, I think the best Waltz-related clue is that he was going to take Rhiney and Julia to the board house, and then they made quite a few stops at and near the Half Circle U while searching.

 

[deducer]

I do not have it in front of me at the moment but ... "there's a trick to my trail' You could argue it might give a little insight into the way his mind worked. If it is true that he said that he was probably, pleased when he could outfox, people, ditch them, lead them all over the place. And the fact that he put that out there he was toying with you to figure it out, and likewise, no miner or cowboy will ever find my mine. Those are the two clues that he gives that are open-ended, kinda like the goose chases he led people on. Is there any correlation between those two clues?

Waltz never mentioned a trick in the trail, only the Two Soldiers and Deering did. There's a reason for that, but you have to put boots on the ground to see why.

That is also a big reason why the Pit Mine just isn't the LDM.

 

[Hal Croves]

Since I have been unable to access or post to the previous thread, I will try a new one.

Out of those clues attributed to Jacob Waltz himself, what would each of you consider the best of the best.
And why ?

From your list:
46) The mine is so cunningly concealed that one could walk within a few feet and miss it. (Waltz)


why? There are only so many ways to cunningly conceal something obvious in the Superstitions.
Not my favorite clue but absolutely my favorite Waltz clue.



Today is National Flag Day.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Waltz never mentioned a trick in the trail, only the Two Soldiers and Deering did. There's a reason for that, but you have to put boots on the ground to see why.

That is also a big reason why the Pit Mine just isn't the LDM.

Good info - Thanks

 

[azdave35]

Good info - Thanks

i would say the best clue is the rock in the shape of a man standing....its the only real clue that brownie spent his life chasing...

 

[arcana-exploration]

Wayne How many maps are there, of military trails within the Supers? Are all trails shown?

 

[somehiker]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but any clue attributed to Waltz is probably not what he actually said, for obvious reasons.

That being said, I think the best Waltz-related clue is that he was going to take Rhiney and Julia to the board house, and then they made quite a few stops at and near the Half Circle U while searching.

Hard to say for sure Jim, but assuming most of the Waltz clues we take more seriously were given after Julia began caring for him.
Early on, though he may have been battling pneumonia, I'm sure he was able to communicate well enough most of the time with Julia, Rhiney, and probably a few other visitors who stopped by. Assuming many, if not all had hear of his luck, I would think some of them would have tried to get info from JW, and in the beginning, he would have been careful with what he said. But later on, once he sensed the end was coming, or at least that he wasn't going to get any better, yet could still talk/draw maps etc., that he chose Julia and Rhiney as heirs to his caches and possibly his mine as well. From that point on I think he would have been honest with them and as clear as his memory would allow him to be.
Having suffered through a bout with pneumonia myself for the last 6 months, I think I know what I'm talking about with this.
Although I had quite a few days where I wouldn't or couldn't have been very talkative, most days simple conversation was unhampered. Fortunately, due to modern medicine, and lots of time off work, I'm about 95% back to normal at this point. Now, I just need to get back in shape for my next trip down there.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne How many maps are there, of military trails within the Supers? Are all trails shown?

I've seen at least two, neither of which may show ALL the trails followed by patrols during the war with the Apache and Yavapai.
But I suspect the trail that Waltz was talking about, was one that had been used more than once, and that he probably had used it himself to get through the area.

 

[Al D]

I've seen at least two, neither of which may show ALL the trails followed by patrols during the war with the Apache and Yavapai.
But I suspect the trail that Waltz was talking about, was one that had been used more than once, and that he probably had used it himself to get through the area.

As I recall, it was called the old spanish trail, or the old military trail, which tells me that it was old in Waltz time

 

[Al D]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but any clue attributed to Waltz is probably not what he actually said, for obvious reasons.

That being said, I think the best Waltz-related clue is that he was going to take Rhiney and Julia to the board house, and then they made quite a few stops at and near the Half Circle U while searching.

Waltz did move his gold to three different locations and worked to conceal his mine, maybe this was done because he realized that he talked too much?
this would imply that some of his clues may be spot on.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hard to say for sure Jim, but assuming most of the Waltz clues we take more seriously were given after Julia began caring for him.
Early on, though he may have been battling pneumonia, I'm sure he was able to communicate well enough most of the time with Julia, Rhiney, and probably a few other visitors who stopped by. Assuming many, if not all had hear of his luck, I would think some of them would have tried to get info from JW, and in the beginning, he would have been careful with what he said. But later on, once he sensed the end was coming, or at least that he wasn't going to get any better, yet could still talk/draw maps etc., that he chose Julia and Rhiney as heirs to his caches and possibly his mine as well. From that point on I think he would have been honest with them and as clear as his memory would allow him to be.
Having suffered through a bout with pneumonia myself for the last 6 months, I think I know what I'm talking about with this.
Although I had quite a few days where I wouldn't or couldn't have been very talkative, most days simple conversation was unhampered. Fortunately, due to modern medicine, and lots of time off work, I'm about 95% back to normal at this point. Now, I just need to get back in shape for my next trip down there.

Wayne, glad to hear you're recovering, good luck and I'm sure you'll be back in fighting shape in no time.

I'm with you 100% that Waltz was most likely sharing info in those last few months. What I just don't believe is that anyone would repeat that info in any usable way. Just doesn't fit with human nature. Might be a little nugget that slipped out here and there, but for the most part it's just deception and hot air. I do like the stories and folklore, but when it comes to finding an actual mine, it won't help and in most instances will probably distract.

For example, there's more than a little circumstantial evidence that Waltz probably cut some kind of deathbed deal with the guy that walked away with his "under the bed" ore. The stories don't say that, but human nature indicates it. Then if one were to do a little digging, it might become obvious why that deal was cut with Gideon O. Roberds. Who just happened to be, like Jim Bark said, "an old prospecting friend of the (Holmes) family", and Roberds was the one that got the ore. Not Holmes Jr. Perhaps Holmes Jr. was with Roberds, at the deathbed, but his inability to find the mine after Roberds died, pretty much points to a probability that he wasn't.

What did Gideon Roberds tell Dick Holmes Jr., as they were processing Waltz's ore? Was it the truth? Since the Holmeses never found the mine, my money is on the deceptive side of human nature, rather than relying on some western folk tale version of events. The old magazines and books are full of such tales, with very few of them ever leading to a real mine. It has happened, but is the exception rather than the rule.

Just my 50 cents take care, Jim

 

[deducer]

For example, there's more than a little circumstantial evidence that Waltz probably cut some kind of deathbed deal with the guy that walked away with his "under the bed" ore. The stories don't say that, but human nature indicates it. Then if one were to do a little digging, it might become obvious why that deal was cut with Gideon O. Roberds. Who just happened to be, like Jim Bark said, "an old prospecting friend of the (Holmes) family", and Roberds was the one that got the ore. Not Holmes Jr. Perhaps Holmes Jr. was with Roberds, at the deathbed, but his inability to find the mine after Roberds died, pretty much points to a probability that he wasn't.

Jim,

Could you elaborate on this?

What makes you think Holmes didn't simply walk off with the ore?

The acrimony between the Holmes and Thomas/Petrasch camp seems to suggest something sneaky and underhanded took place.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,

Could you elaborate on this?

What makes you think Holmes didn't simply walk off with the ore?

The acrimony between the Holmes and Thomas/Petrasch camp seems to suggest something sneaky and underhanded took place.

Hi Deducer, multi-faceted reasoning:

1. Holmes demonstrated a law-abiding and honorable character throughout his life. This isn't my opinion, as I didn't know him, but something I've spent considerable time and effort researching. I was prepared to accept any conclusion about Holmes, and that's just the conclusion my research indicated.

2. If Holmes had simply walked off with the ore, he most likely would have been charged with something. If Julia really believed that ore was hers, she would have went straight from her house to law enforcement upon discovering the theft. She didn't demonstrate this behavior.

3. Julia's resentment seemed to bubble up over time, rather than instantly. Having witnessed this type of resentment, after the fact, in estate cases, it leads me to believe that the distribution of the ore was Waltz's decision, and she knew it, rather than the ore was stolen, which would have been frowned upon by the local population and law enforcement. Juila was demonstrating manipulative tendencies toward those with a sympathetic ear, IMO, rather than responding to an outright theft of a whole lot of money. A theft of that size would be significant for the time.

4. I saw no real acrimony on the part of the Holmes camp. The resentment seemed to be overwhelmingly on the side of the Julia camp. Even Brownie talked of Jim Bark in a polite and respectful manner, while knowing that Bark had nothing good to say about him or his father. This is a "boiled-down" statement, from observation of years' worth of data, but that's where the evidence seems to conclusively point.

5. The information linking Gideon Roberds and Dick Holmes Sr. is out there. This is still an active research topic for me, not sure how coherent I would be relating it. But the information is out there for anyone to find and I would encourage people to look into it, if it interests them. Start with newspapers and mining claims.

There's much more than can be related in a forum post, but that's a good start, at least for people to start thinking about.

 

[deducer]

Hi Deducer, multi-faceted reasoning:

1. Holmes demonstrated a law-abiding and honorable character throughout his life. This isn't my opinion, as I didn't know him, but something I've spent considerable time and effort researching. I was prepared to accept any conclusion about Holmes, and that's just the conclusion my research indicated.

2. If Holmes had simply walked off with the ore, he most likely would have been charged with something. If Julia really believed that ore was hers, she would have went straight from her house to law enforcement upon discovering the theft. She didn't demonstrate this behavior.

3. Julia's resentment seemed to bubble up over time, rather than instantly. Having witnessed this type of resentment, after the fact, in estate cases, it leads me to believe that the distribution of the ore was Waltz's decision, and she knew it, rather than the ore was stolen, which would have been frowned upon by the local population and law enforcement. Juila was demonstrating manipulative tendencies toward those with a sympathetic ear, IMO, rather than responding to an outright theft of a whole lot of money. A theft of that size would be significant for the time.

4. I saw no real acrimony on the part of the Holmes camp. The resentment seemed to be overwhelmingly on the side of the Julia camp. Even Brownie talked of Jim Bark in a polite and respectful manner, while knowing that Bark had nothing good to say about him or his father. This is a "boiled-down" statement, from observation of years' worth of data, but that's where the evidence seems to conclusively point.

5. The information linking Gideon Roberds and Dick Holmes Sr. is out there. This is still an active research topic for me, not sure how coherent I would be relating it. But the information is out there for anyone to find and I would encourage people to look into it, if it interests them. Start with newspapers and mining claims.

There's much more than can be related in a forum post, but that's a good start, at least for people to start thinking about.

These are very good reasonings; sound logic here.

The one thing that prevents me from accepting this outcome is the fact that when Waltz caught Holmes tracking him out by Tortilla Creek, he informed Holmes that if Holmes tried that stunt again, Waltz would kill him. To me, these are very strong words.

What exactly happened to reverse Waltz's position from threatening to kill Holmes, to giving him the ore, outright?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

You may be right, but it appears possible or even quite probable, that the stories about Holmes Jr's exploits as a young man aren't exactly true as we've heard them. Nor do I believe it is likely that Waltz gave his ore to Holmes, or would have given it to any young kid.

I believe he most likely gave it to Gideon Roberds, (EDIT: Bark believed Gideon Roberds "got" the ore as well) for some services in kind to be performed after Waltz's death. Perhaps Holmes was involved to some extent, for reasons unknown. But I don't believe any of the stories put forth in the Holmes manuscript as far as details, because too many of them are easily proven false, and most of the rest are highly unlikely.

Something not related in the manuscript was going on between Waltz, Roberds, and Holmes Jr. Something all too human and perhaps mundane, that's been lost to history in favor of treasure tales containing high adventure

 

[deducer]

You may be right, but it appears possible or even quite probable, that the stories about Holmes Jr's exploits as a young man aren't exactly true as we've heard them. Nor do I believe it is likely that Waltz gave his ore to Holmes, or would have given it to any young kid.

I believe he most likely gave it to Gideon Roberds, (EDIT: Bark believed Gideon Roberds "got" the ore as well) for some services in kind to be performed after Waltz's death. Perhaps Holmes was involved to some extent, for reasons unknown. But I don't believe any of the stories put forth in the Holmes manuscript as far as details, because too many of them are easily proven false, and most of the rest are highly unlikely.

Something not related in the manuscript was going on between Waltz, Roberds, and Holmes Jr. Something all too human and perhaps mundane, that's been lost to history in favor of treasure tales containing high adventure

I agree that there's a lot that went on that didn't make it into print. I've always been ambivalent about what came out of the Holmes camp, and that ambivalence centers on what happened out at Tortilla Creek.

For me, the Tortilla Creek incident did happen- it is in the right place. It is on the way to the canyon that the Two Soldiers got lost in.